Jayakrishna's letter talks about the credentials of the author.I think this a very important point. Why can't we know the credentials of the columnists? Unlike the real hard sciences like Physics, Maths, Chemistry etc. etc. its easier to spout some economic mumbo jumbo and get away with it . Why not show us the credentials of the columnists especially when they talk about such subjects as economics ( as opposed to bridal dress of Ash )? Also once the bona fides are available we can have some idea about the authors contribution in scholarly journals by going through the citation index of his published works quite easily available to many of us here in the rediff community. This will help us in putting the author's comments in proper perspective.
Take the case of Sunita Narian > Why she doesn't come out and say in open if Coke / Pepsi concentrate has pesticide or the water which they use has the Pesticide. That pesticide got percolated by indescrminate use of pesticides by the farmers. And we as indians need to do something about that.
let me make it clear I am not a fan or supporter of Coke or Pepsi. India is worlds largest fruit producer and I will love if all companies ( Coke / Pepsi / Dabur) etc gear up to bring fruit juice price at par with Coke / Pepsi.
Similarly with so much of Money at her disposal why MedhaPatkar can not paste the names and photographs of all those Narmada project affected families on the Internet. What she thinks is fair deal for them. Just stopping a project worth Billions of Rupees is not a solution. She is starving many others to death. Gujarat need to Block the sweet Rain water before it goes back to see. It will help generating electricity through Environmental friendly means. No one from Congress will speak that as Gujarat has Mr Narendra Modi
Here in India anyone goes and take PIL and Court goes ahead with Stay order,huge projects are stalled in a matter of days.
Mamta Benerjee should come out with the names of those affected and what she thinks they should get and place it on a WEBSITE.All those on the net can understand what is really at stake and debate it with others too.
All the environmentalists should join hands and help cities make a check on polutants being added to water / air or solid waste being dumped. instead of stalling a project altogether. Court should fine Industry if they overstep the norms and distribute to those affected and to Environmentalists for a job well done. I do not see any Environmental lobby coming out and saying : 1) How much Ground water is being pumped out by a industry and what is current international norm. 2) How much polutants are added to water by industry and dispatched to Ganga / yamuna or any other River. 3) How much Sulfur Dioxide or Hydrogen Sulphide has been dumped into atmosphere by Indian Refineries and what is current international norm. 4) How much Benzene is getting mixed in River water from our Petrochemical Plants.
Why Sunita Narian / Mamta Benerjee / Mredha Patkar are silent on such issue.
They can do lot more if they are true to India and have a love for the country.
RE:What Environmentalist should / can do;
by santanu sengupta on Apr 15, 2007 12:31 AM Permalink
Mamata has already done something , that is making us all aware of what is going on . But it must be said that the movement was entirely grassroots to start with. the author asks the Medha Patkar, Mamata and the likes to come forward and put the names on the website but as far as I know Mamata and others in the front has mentioned names over and over again . Even if the names are put on the web by someone web savvy do you mean to say that right thinking citizens should make a move only after that ! YOu don't really have to wait for some environmental lobby to come out and talk about international norms! You can find it out on your own by some diligent web search of the international agencies. Why do we want to be spoonfed all the time waiting for Medhas to do everything ? exactly what do you mean by being true to india and love for the country ? How is it manifested? By flying the tri color when we have a miss universe or win a cricket match or win a war in Kargil ? Or by caring for the poorest of the poor ?
RE:What Environmentalist should / can do;
by ASHOK on Apr 15, 2007 04:14 AM Permalink
OK Your point is well taken, keep on propogating on the name poorest of the poor, without coming out with a solution for their problems. So far what you have said?? You are more after authors credentials instead of recognising if we need SEZ and if Yes than how to help the displaced.Have Bare footed Indians walking on Dirt Roads as that is environmental friendly. You dont need Petrochemical plants to produce Plastics and you dont need tar roads. By the way India has not seen any new petrochemical plant after Haldia and it I dont see any new refinery coming in Eastern part of India, in next 10 years. That will make many of us comfortable. Indian politicians should not cry when Indian bussiness people go and invest abroad. Let us wait at western union counter for money sent home, while our children toil in Middle east, 10 to 15 persons bundled in 1 room like sardines.
RE:[object]
by ASHOK on Apr 15, 2007 04:48 AM Permalink
If Himadari chemicals pays 30,000 RS per acre,8 years ago as Compensation for land just across proposed Tata factory, than Mamta was sleeping. Now when Tata pays Rs 8 lach per acre than it is a underpayment. You give me this sort of appreciation, I am ready to vacate next day. Do you know how many farmers sold their prized land in Panjab and resettled in UP, in the process tripled their land and agricultural output. refer >> http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/dec/09tata.htm I am comparing farmers vs farmers.( That too both,in India)
RE:What Environmentalist should / can do;
by santanu sengupta on Apr 15, 2007 09:53 PM Permalink
Indeed you are comparing farmers with farmers but you should also compare the agricultural productivity of the two different regions and the land held by individual farmers in those two areas . Compared to the farmers in Panjab those in Singur are small fry with much smaller holdings. if anybodu sells his land in his own voliation I don't think politicians like Mamata can have much to say about it , the trouble arises when they are coerced to do so by the local cpim part machinery . Actually over here in Singur most of the land acquired was by the government shortchanging the farmers in the process. Tata comes in and gets the land on lease from the government. By the way do you know that the stamp duty has been waived for the Tatas' and also the money they will be paying back will be with an interest rate below the going rate ? Tell me is this how a democracy is supposed to run ? Where the big business arm twists the government and forces it to use draconian laws set up by the British in 1894 ?
As for solutions ,indiscriminate SEZ is not the solution . Like I repeated before even people like Swaminathan, Amartya Sen among others are against it . You keep talking about Petrochemicals , I hope you haven't forgotten Bhopal? Now here in West Bengal they have diluted the say of the Pollution Control Board with the industrialists having more say in matters. Pollution is a tangible measurable thing why should the people who pollute have a say on that ! Nobody wants to walk on dirt roads but nobody wants to have carcinogenic stuff dumped in his backyards either . Granted you and I would be safe and yeah cliche as it sounds its the "poorest of the poor" who suffer because of this kind of unchecked unmonitored indistrialisaion. As for middle east workers surely they are better off than the landless in the rural India? Finally give me one moral, ethical reason why people have to be displaced for big business . As you know the central government announced that each displaced family should atleast have one member provided with jobs. Let them first resettle the folks displaced by Narmada Dam before driving more people for SEZs.
RE:What Environmentalist should / can do;
by ASHOK on Apr 15, 2007 10:44 PM Permalink
Bhopal was a pesticide plant, not a petrochemical plant.
You dont need a million Rs to move up. You can be hand to mouth when when you can be still planning for a better tomorrow. Many of Panjab people have seen riches to rags in 1947 partition and moved on. I think BBC coverage on a Panjab farmer planning to buy land in Vancouver selling Panjab land at a premium is another example of moving ahead. one thing >> TATA's should pull out and go elsewhere in Bengal. I am sure they can have many other options within Bengal.Instead of wasting time on Singur. But Didi doesnt want to suggest alternates , she wants votes.
But fact remains we need Industry or else our youth will become lawless,I have seen a lot of young people moving around aimlessly in Bengal and so to say many other parts of India also. We do not want our youth to join non productive ventures. I am really proud of TATA's. Why do you single out TATA's on stamp duty. Atleast it is across the board. Talk of Telgi and political nexus on Stamp issue. Such incentives are nothing when you want a better industry. Gujrat has maximum petrochemical Raw material production capacity as compared to rest of India. Even than Tupperware went to Hydrabad ( Reason >> Gujrat could not match the incentives and agressive appraoch of Chandrababu Naidu). If Tata's get incentives, why should we worry about that. In future Bengal may give similar incentives to Reliance also.
you maybe aware how many airports Gujarat has and compare that with Bengal or UP. We need more than what we have in Bengal. You are also aware Bengal's contribution to Education / arts / science. Why should Bengal be left behind and be left at the mercy of people like Mamta Benerjee. She is a part of the problem not solution.
It is very difficult to comprehend which factor caused the problem?. Definitely the huge population in a small country one of the main issue as the industry is looking for big chunk of lands and they have to encounter inhabitant in those area. It is not an easy tasks to vacate the people in those area and they don't know where they will go. And another side is the industrialists greed about farm lands and this idea definitely create problem for those who living in surrounding area as the prospective industrialization definitely polluted the area and contaminated the water resources. Don't compare china with India as China is 2.5 times bigger than India and it is having huge waste lands. Off course that country is in the control of dictatorship.
please tell me who is India inc ? while the author ( I do not know his credentials ),uses the word They with contempt to group land owners, environmentalists and other comes to his dream, reality is that the India inc wants land to enlarge thier pockets, with a throw away price is given for land. We need industry of course, why not make the land owners be part of it ? why do they ( this time, India inc, whoever that be ) , need land owners evicted with throw away price ? While it benefits to the author to create a group from different pressure groups, ( poor he !!) forgets that by terming India Inc , he creates another syndicate with autocratic businessmen and their payroll officials. Or is he trying to create a psychological warfare ? In any case, days are over where people thrown away from their homes to make factories or dam!! unfortunately for india inc syndicate or politicians, India is a democracy. It is a hard fact that everyone has to accept.
I fail to understand why should India inc have a dream!! in my opinion India should have a dream, people of India may not need a dream , dreamt by others!!
RE:Who is india Inc ?
by ASHOK on Apr 15, 2007 12:20 AM Permalink
So you are happy if TATA / BAJAJ / Mahindra's open their factories outside India. Why India's PM or Industry Minister want them in India. it is not dreams it is concrete efforts based on Ground realities which needs to be done if you want India to be having a good ( ARMY / NAVY/ AIRFORCE) Space Industry / Oil Industry / Medical / Sofftaware .....well the list is endless. Mittal made perhaps all his money abroad , and you need not have him in India, even Now. Do you think it is his vested interest to be in India or Indias interest to have him in India.
RE:Who is india Inc ?
by santanu sengupta on Apr 15, 2007 12:44 AM Permalink
I don't think anybody is happy about that. But the point is priorities, the ground reality is that India is a country where there are millions without proper food and basic amenities. What is the percentage of Indians below the poverty line as per world standards [ not by govt. of India standars pls ;-) ]? When was the last time you took a look at the UN's rating of India as regards health and primary education? Heard about what Amartya sen mentioned in the last science congress about lopsided development in India? Read what Stiglitz says in his book about mindless globalisation? Do you know where the major Indian cities stand vis-a-vis world pollution standards ? Tata and Bajaj are interested in profits quite naturally just as the common man are interested in putting food to his table. Us the elite are a minority who are there to shape and guide the system to our greatest benefit and forget the poor , after all they are in the lingua franca of the new rich " a bunch of losers "
RE:Who is india Inc ?
by ASHOK on Apr 15, 2007 05:33 PM Permalink
Tata coming up with a proposal for car at Rs 1 lach doesnt sound like making mindless profit at the cost of poor Indians. As such any Industry (Private or Public) has to make profit if you want a nation to grow. Otherwise your existing Industry will also become obsolete and close down against Internationatinal Competition. This is what happenend to Russia and China. Finally both came out in favour of industrialization and moderanisation. Have seen seen Gas guzler Russian Tractors in Indian farms. No one liked them or could pay for daily petrol/ diesel bill and they became junk in no time. On the name of Poor , Certain persons should not hijack economic growth. Rather work together to remove road blocks.
If prime farm land is being given to TATA than all should work to give him /suggest him alternate location. If Bengal has no land to offer to Industry than he should look elsewhere.
Similarly Govt of India has no Bussiness to limit SEZ size ( Mid way). They should specify things upfront. This is nothing but blackmail. You walk miles and miles in Korea or China, you find integrated units. Almost similar Industrial belt is seen in Surat. But question is >> I billion poulation needs more industry. Next step comes what should be facilities in such Units. Instead of working in a structured way we tax payer find our politiciatins and technocrats finding ways to stall a project. Dont you see that.
RE:Who is india Inc ?
by Sachin Chander on Apr 14, 2007 11:19 PM Permalink
Totally agree. 'They' just think that they can run their corporations the way they have always been running (by asking government to keep helping them make money). at the same time blaming them for not letting them make enough. If business rivals are also a part of 'they' foir them, you can imagine how much beneficial their policies are for people of India generally.
RE:is there shortage of land in india.
by ASHOK on Apr 16, 2007 05:35 PM Permalink
No there is no shortage. What you said can be done and should be done. But if such a thing is done than India will progress and that is what our politicians do not want. That will mean no issue between Mamta & CPI to fight for.
with all the blocks being created in india by the locals, most of the indian industrilists are opening their manufacturing units in china.whan infosys, wipro etc can do it (mind u these are software cos) why not manufacturing ? whare china has all the strengths?wake up locals.
Vajpayee though had modi had a far effiecient govt.india's economy became better and our forign policy was superb.Congress,we had hope of economic revolution but what we have is a mix of socialism and communism and castiest and religious appeasement.We need these people out.Bring back BJP.
RE:Failed govt
by santanu sengupta on Apr 15, 2007 12:13 AM Permalink
Economic revolution my foot ! During Modi's "revolution" in Gujarat following Godhra hundreds of poor artisans from other parts of India were driven away , their livelihood destroyed as they were muslims . I never thought that to counter religious appeasment one had to ruin people's lives. Is the price of efficiency to be paid in blood? By the way Nazi germany before it embarked in its wars were quite efficient in mobilising resources etc. all the while killing and stripping the jews of their wealth with the same clinical efficiency .
What I found rather sad was the almost ritualistic bashing of environmentalists and lumping them together with corrupt politicians and other anti-social elements. However at the same time the good folks of India inc. ask for water , electricity and food shortages to be met! To think that environmentalists don't have any role in solving all that is sheer folly. Funny thing is that these folks are educated many of them subsidised by public ( which include many peons and clerks as well as CEO's )and have access to all the public domain information in the net that shows with some impeccable scientific credentials that the way we are using up our resources are not sustainable. Even as global warming has become a life and death issue with "backward ignorant peasants" out there in the Sunderban islands these people keep on talking about progress, progress where the environmentalists are seen as erecting unncecessary hurdles. While there's another kind who are always complaining about taxes.Do you people know where Sweden stands as far as levels of taxation and social security expenses are concerned ? Sweden is not a communist country and in size its comparable to U.K . So please try to be a little objective and detached about your own self interests and look at the broad picture before mouthing the same tired cliches about the politicians. However one has to admit that the point of science is objective evaluation which is not quite the forte of the "chattering classes" or those having aspirations to attain those dizzy heights Santanu
RE:Ignorance is a bliss indeed
by Jayakrishnan V on Apr 14, 2007 11:18 PM Permalink
well written, Santanu. This author seem to be a pawn of profit oriented businessman. this is not journalism, this is exactly what power brokers in politics do. I liked your term "chattering classes", yes we have journalists like who has pwaned their consciouness to make money - they seem to be propagating the idea that they only have brains, and others like environmentalists are nuisancee. They are ready to lend their brains to profiteering
RE:Ignorance is a bliss indeed
by santanu sengupta on Apr 15, 2007 12:04 AM Permalink
Hi Jayakrishnan, the trouble with corporate media is the same the world over . India too is jumping into the same bandwagon, the principal goals of these MSM ( mainstream media ) are to massage the egoes of upcoming consumer classes and selling them expensive goods. As has been pointed out by critical thinkers its no longer the newspapers which are sold to us , rather its us the consumers who are sold to the businesses by the newspapers. Obviously uncomfortable truths don't have any place in this "feel good" scenario and the India Inc. and their hangers-on are ready to lap it all up .
A well written piece, Govindraj. We have politicians, babus, envornmentalists, human right activists who are there to create obstacles in setting up projects. I sometime feel that it is not in the interest of a vast majority of the politicians to tackle the shortages of food, water, electricity etc. otherwise there will be no major issues at the time of elections and people may forget them. A prime example is that of the supply side management of inflation. We could import essential commodities in the wake of domestic shortages thanks to a robust forex kitty. But our beurocratic system and port congestion etc. will delay the important commodities to reach the consumers by which time the damage has already been done.
Who are the villians of the Indian Economy? So called communists, socialists, promoters of society built around cast and creed and forward and backward classes, environmetalists, politicians, beauraucrats and union leaders. Corporates are not allowed to expand their business. Entreprenuers are deprived of finance and the government funds are siphoned out toward non productive usage.
RE:Villains of Indian Economy
by Shankar Panday on Apr 14, 2007 09:43 PM Permalink
Indian economy started off in the wrong foot under Nehruvian socialistic stupidity...that created a certain mindset with which the Indian got stuck..then came the intellectual so called progressive commies with their Marxian dogmas...India needs lot of character to enter the 21st century.
RE:Villains of Indian Economy
by Sriram R on Apr 14, 2007 10:49 PM Permalink
Nehruvian model was the best model for those times - putting in the best of public and private enterprise. Any ideology or belief or process has to change with the times. If the powers that came in after Nehru did not have the sense to update the approach according to the needs of the 70s and 80s than that is their fault and not Nehru's. You are just harping on a 2 decade old fad of blaming Nehru and socialism.
