What India will be getting from this deal is nuclear fuel and civilian nuclear technology to produce power.india badly needs it and in order to make India less dependent on Mid East oil,US is using this technology transfer strategy to help its industry and also taking India on its side.USA badly needs an ally in Asia,and India will become a economic giant soon,number 3 after USA and China.The clauses are being added to test the indian resolve,if india accepts,all the better, and more influence of USA.West had tried to master the fast breeder technology,but seeing the expenses involved the cheaper and known route was taken to learn to complete the nuclear cycle using Uranium.India indegeniously developed Fast breeder technology and has mastered it now, nobody is stopping india from developing it.All India should be cautious about is guarantees of continuous supply of Uranium to its new reactors.
RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 03:15 AM Permalink
This is the most balanced comment made on this board so far . It is the sum total of my arguments in favor of this deal and also my points against this anti-US paranoia which prevails so strongly in general populace.
RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by Raj on Mar 19, 2007 06:17 AM Permalink
Thanks Kutta,
India has already mastered the technology of generating energy through fast breeder reactors, only it needs more expertise to develop it on a large scale.India has not collaborated with any country so far as they attach conditions of inspections and control, so India has so far managed to go alone. With new technology coming to India with the new set up with USA, indian scientists will be free to develop the fast breeder tech further as that is going to help India in the longer run. For shorter term energy solution, uranium fed reactors are required. With new discoveries and research on developing new technologies of running vehicles on hydrogen being developed, soon a solution will be found to get rid of petrol which is the source of pollution and extreme climate change..
RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by hello on Mar 19, 2007 06:19 AM Permalink
Either Raj or Kutta may be agents of ISI agents or Chinese, I think. See the actual number of Chinese nuclear weapons 400 was shown reduced figure by Kutta to 130 to match out near to India's. India doesn't have that much also. Believe me we are not in 3 digit number range!!!
Surely, We need to have more nuclear weapons. But that is not our point. We need to get more power (electricity) for our growing population needs!!! Everybody is bothering about fossil fuel & global warming. So, Nuclear will be the best option!!!
RE:RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by Raj on Mar 19, 2007 06:46 AM Permalink
Hello, Tell me what is your perception of a nuclear weapon, Is it like a cricket ball and you say, we have 60 cricket balls LOL. The devices tested were a fission device, a low-yield device and a thermonuclear device. The most important one was the middle one ...i.e low yield device...Now hello ji, do you know wat that means? It means a soldier can carry it in a mobile transporter and aim it independently at a large concentration of enemy soldiers or tanks and equipment and can finish it off. Now can you tell me independently how many of these devices india has? and how many of those are thermo nuclear, each one has got a different application, so when kids like you talk of NUMBERS, it makes me laugh, India can have 500 or 600 such collective devices...Are you surprised? Dont be bro. but brush up your knowledge a bit, and to call me a ISI agent is laughable, you know that..
RE:RE:RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 10:14 AM Permalink
I agree with you Raj. We imagine Nuclear devices of something as big as the Hiroshima - Nagasaki bombs (In terms of physical size, not yeild)
Nuclear devices fall under 2 categories 1.Strategic nuclear weapons (with 100 times more destructive force than 1945 atom bombs)
2.Tactical nuclear weapons (with a yield of about 10-15 kilotons).. these would be as deadly as Hiroshima which had a yield of 13 kilotons of TNT and was Uranium 235 based (not very efficient fuel).
The number of total weapons on earth could be much higher than we imagine !
At the time of Cuban missile crisis, Russia had about 3500 nuclear weapons.. and US had over 28,000 nuclear weapons. Imagine the stockpile all the countries have accumulated in these 45 years !
US has currently taken a task of dismantling old weapons and making new more efficient weapons. As per time.com, US has about 12000 strategic weapons deployed on warheads, and about 6000 as backup.
RE:RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by animesh kumar on Mar 19, 2007 06:45 AM Permalink
Global warming has less to do with the type of fuel.
Only energy-crisis has to do with fossil fuel. US alone consumes 33% of the fuel and rest 30-40% are consumed by Europe. India hardly contributes (though the contribution is rising slowly). India also uses a lot of domestic production (bombay high etc) unlike US and Europe.
RE:RE:RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by hello on Mar 19, 2007 07:31 AM Permalink
In future, the fossil fuel need will be even more!!! So, if we go through the nuclear fuel route, lot of carbon will be saved from the atmosphere. Power cut! Power cut!! Power cut!!! It is slogan of India whenever I call India. But I never heard anything in another countries.
RE:RE:RE:India should act in Indian Interest
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 10:02 AM Permalink
Mr.Hello, By what authority do you give these statements "Either Raj or Kutta may be agents of ISI agents or Chinese, I think. See the actual number of Chinese nuclear weapons 400 was shown reduced figure by Kutta to 130 to match out near to India's. India doesn't have that much also. Believe me we are not in 3 digit number range!!! "
It is natural everybody wants to get max out of it. USA politicians are trying get india closer to NPT CTBT (thru backdoor), and India trying to get nuclear weapon state status. It is good that Indian scientist community are fighting for Indian right and so also Indian foreign secretary. This negotitaion should be win win for both side. India should not fall weak and should negotiate for it's rights clearly, let american management manage the congress in US. We have big business bait for them hanging in the form of MRCA tender, and hope they will look into helping India. India can not sign NPT or CTBT at this stage as it arsenals are negligible compare to China. Chinese did after building huge nuclear deterrent capacity and ultimately got recognized as nuclear weapon state. India can not expect shortcuts it has to build it's capacity to become recognized.
India should enter into an agreement with kuwait instead of US. because it will give u the petrol which can be put on Whole US and firedout just as done by our GOD HANUMAN with LANKA. Think seriously !****
RE:RE:INDIA US Nuclear deal
by animesh kumar on Mar 19, 2007 06:46 AM Permalink
What has Hanuman to do with Al Qaeda? Hanuman used to fight openly as per the legends. And Hanuman burnt Lanka since Lankan king had abducted the pride of the universe, Sita.
Stop comparing Al Qaeda with our venerable Monkey God.
RE:INDIA US Nuclear deal
by Full2njoy on Mar 19, 2007 06:19 AM Permalink
hanuman was a monkey who'se tail was on fire. what has that to do with an oil agreement between kuwait, india and usa?
RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:00 AM Permalink
HEARD OF THE FAST BREEDER REACTOR BUDDY? INDIAN SCIENTISTS ARE UPSET COZ WE ARE ONE OF THE ONLY NATIONS IN THE KNOW OF HOW TO USE THORIUM AS A BREEDER IN REACTORS. AMERICANS WANT TO STOP THIS PROGRAM, COZ IT COULD IMPACT THEIR INDUSTRIES, IF INDIA STARTS SELLING SUCH REACTORS AT AFFORDABLE RATES. BY BRINGING INDIA IN THEIR FOLD, THEY WILL DUMP NUCLEAR FUEL TO US, SO THAT WE DONT PURSUE THE THORIUM OPTION. WE WILL BE DEPENDENT ON THEM ETERNALLY. FYI...INDIA HAS THE SECOND LARGEST RESERVE OF THORIUM
RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 12:40 AM Permalink
Somehow I can't find the reply button for your post which says " have clearly said, keep all your options open and dont accept anything that is not in Indian interests. Fast breeder reactor project has to go on for us. We need self reliance some day even if it takes 20 years! '.. so I'm writing here.
Do you think India has 20 years time, considering an uncontrolled population growing at 1.38% per annum, economy growing at 9% and industy at 11.3% ?
Just think dude ? Can India survive this growth rate.. we are hungry for power, resources and capital. And US and Europe is our biggest chance to turn the tables around and make up for the 200 yrs we've lost under the british.
Independence is good to have, but only when we are capable to be independent. After investing billions in the AJT program at HAL, Indian Airforce is finally buying the Hawks from Britain, why ? Because we can't wait and see more MIGs dropping from the skies and taking those precious pilots with them.
We will be technologically independent one day, I agree, but there is no harm in doing hand holding with US till we are able to stand up on our own. The IT and BPO industry that we are boasting today is largely due to US.. realise that !
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Sreekanth Nemani on Mar 19, 2007 02:47 AM Permalink
My dear Kutta,
it is a false assumption that india can walk out of it..... Once we have the reactors and the power generation going, the number of things depending on it are humongous. Pulling out at that point will result in a very high cost for us, also we will be affected diplomatically all over the world.... which will in turn affect our other trade.
Puling out might imply sactions by some countries (especially the white countries) too. So, we should not enter this agreement under the false sense of security, that we can easily pull out.
Pulling out will have the same impact that testing nuclear weapons had... so we have to be extremely careful. what's on paper, and how it works in real life internaional politics are two very different things...
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:23 AM Permalink
walk out of what? Shut down all the reactors that are already bought for a few billion dollars coz we dont have uranium anymore?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:16 AM Permalink
Well how does one rate a country? By past experiences right? Today these guys in US will say all this, but tomorrow they will revoke under some clause or pretext. Whats the point in having reactors that depend on Uranium when you have no other alternative but to keep depending on the US led NSG for it? We have to retain Soveriegnity on every sphere of this deal guys. I m repeating this statement. If you view it as suspicion, then so be it. US is not above board on most of its foreign policy decisions. Infact where are the weapons of Mass destruction, the texan warred to dig out in Iraq?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 12:54 AM Permalink
Some facts to think over-
Nuclear arsenals -
USA - 9960 Russia - 7200 UK - 200 France - 350 China - 130 India - 120-200 Pakistan 90 Isreal - 200
What do you think manufacturing 'dozen' nuclear weapons can do ?
Nuclear weapons are not inversely proportional to the ability to hit back after an attack. A country having 500 nukes can also hit a country having thousands and make unacceptable damage.
And INDIA ALREADY HAS THAT ability.
So Forget this fallacy that India is weaker than China nuclear-wise.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Raj on Mar 19, 2007 02:52 AM Permalink
As per your knowledge about the nukes possesed by India and pakistan...let me make one thing clear, Pakistan does not have a N-weapon.It is no open secret that Pakistan detonated 3 crude Chinese n-device along with 500 tons of Dynamite to give it the effect of a nuclear test just after Indian test.This was in connivance and full knowledge of Chinese and US leadership. Pakis had to save their face, so they stagemanaged the explosions in a weeks time..do you know how many rounds Shareef made of China, during this one week period.For doing a proper nuclear test to measure all the test data, you need tonnes of equipment, super computers to analyse the data and lots of work in advance...for which you need a minimum period of 2 months, if you have all the things ready.So did pak really test the nuclear device. Explosions are done to test them and study the data collected to supertune your nuclear devises, not to just make a bang. Got the point? Pak realies only on Chinese weapons and watever it has is safe and under US control. So no worries..
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:57 AM Permalink
We dont have 500. We barely have 50 or 60. We need atleast 200 as an arsenal for return attack, assuming losses due to first strike. There is no way we can accept a cap in nuclear bomb production like US wants to see. Sovereignty on all this is ours, and not for US to decide.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:43 AM Permalink
I said this: Our Scientists are right! by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 10:12 PM | Hide replies Americans never think about anything but their self interests. They want a deterrence against China, where they want to use us as a pawn, and secondly they want a country who could buy all their reactors, at the same time bringing our systems under their influence. We need to tread very carefully. We need to retain at all costs, the ability to make a dozen bombs every year, at the same time bring in new plants to produce power.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:40 AM Permalink
Not if U.S changes it policy as usual, and vetoes it in NSG...Russia or US cannot supply unilaterally remember. Things are more complex than the "walk when you want" that you guys are preaching.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Raj on Mar 19, 2007 06:04 AM Permalink
Yes, friends, thats true, how can you beleive their bluff, in case anybody who knows about the preparations you need to do before conducting a n.test can tell you how much time you need. It was correctly a ready made chinese Pizza that was used.Thats the reason why USA does not worry as much about Paki (so called Bombs) as it does about N.Korea and Iran. USA Prez has to confirm in the Parliament before giveing any aid to Pakistan that it is not developing any bombs and its nuclear programme is on hold.How does Bush give that undertaking if Paki has possesion of 50 n-devices. It was a pact between USA and China to let Pakistan explode a simple Chinese made n-devise, which should give a big bang. Now how can a country manage to bang not one but 5 (so called) nuclear devices in a weeks time.....Dynamite !!! got it !!!!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by AK Kanodia on Mar 19, 2007 03:40 AM Permalink
Maikeya ji, We did not loose 200 years under British but gained them. All our technology, railways, airways, hospitals, businesses are from british. Even we are one nation as India because of British. There was no country called India before british. Maybe we would have been united states of India, but who would have united them? Ham apne apne raja-maharajaon ke raaj me kabootar lada rahe hote our vo apne apne haram me aish kar rahe hote.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:55 AM Permalink
Fend for yourself and dont depend on anyone in times of need. When your next door neighbour does not help you, how will countries be expected to help. Every country is on its own and fend for itself in critical matters like these.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 03:05 AM Permalink
Well Raj that's news to me.
Even if your assumptions are correct still nevetheless here I was comparing India versus China in particular for nuke weapon arsenals and you can see both balance out each other perfectly.
I would like to add that Pakistan may get a nukes home delivered from China like a pizza !
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Akash on Mar 19, 2007 05:52 AM Permalink
Neo,US is also selling reactors to China,I read it in Noam Chomsky's book of how pentagon as well as Nuclear Reactor Companies from U.S. are involved in China-in fact they are planning to sell the same technology to both the countries and their latest Nuclear Reactor is not a tried and tested thing,the Russians and French are offering a better deal. By the way what's thorium:-)Does it Breed? lol
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 02:54 AM Permalink
An Important fallacy I would like to correct here
Indo US deal does not mean you have to buy nuclear reactors and uranium exclusively from USA.
It means you will get an approval from Nuclear Suppliers Group and you can buy from ANY OF THE 45 countries who are in NSG.
So many countries to choose from - Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, China, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and United States.
So take your pick ! Buy from the country out of this list you trust most. India should have friends I guess.
RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 12:08 AM Permalink
(Do you mind turning off that caps lock please)
Second largest reserve of Thorium, but a technology still in very nascent stages.It might take atleast 20 yrs for India to bring it to full scale production. I don't think we have that much time in hand. India badly needs power right now to continue the economic progress that we are experiening today.
FYI, US is going to transfer us technology, and not fuel (NSG does that).and BTW, whatever technology India has today, it was initiated by US under its 'Atoms for Peace' program in the 60's. If the world (including NSG) is against us today, it is because India secretly transferred that technology and fuel for nuclear tests in 1974 (under Indira Gandhi's rule).
Most of the Indians don't know our own political misdeeds and hence we keep blaming US for everything. US is our biggest supporter for the nuclear program and we must recognise that.
RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:17 AM Permalink
We already have the technology know how buddy. Kalyani was the first 50MW test breeder reactor in Koodangulam. Commercial reactors could be run by 2012, only if those dumbo babus give the go ahead.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:41 AM Permalink
Im not Anti US. But Im for what our scientists state.
Keep a distance from the US at the same time engaging them, and retain sovereignty on all matters concerning our Nuclear options.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:31 AM Permalink
Well the US intent as far as this goes is not noble silly. I support our scientists when they advice caution against any agreement with US. Read my comment properly below - " Our Scientists are right! by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 10:12 PM"
I have clearly said, keep all your options open and dont accept anything that is not in Indian interests. Fast breeder reactor project has to go on for us. We need self reliance some day even if it takes 20 years!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 12:37 AM Permalink
I agree that we surely dont need anyone to do anything for us. We can build 1000 nuclear reactors by 2050 !
However practically speaking would you wait for 20 to 25 years or rather take the practical path of building up your electricity supplies beforehand.
In 20 years (if it happens right on schedule) thorium tech is mastered commercially, you can switch to that.
Do you have any idea how much population would have increase by then ? and also as if current population is getting electicity 24/7. Even in cities like Noida and delhi there are power cuts forget the hinterland.
You are anti american i can understand, and having a knee jerk reactions to everything when I am not even advocating a US India alliance.
But even if you are gonna buy nuclear fuel from Russia you need permission of Nuclear Supplier Group of which both Russia and USA are members. Some facts that may make you think-
Number of countries having nuclear power plants - 30
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:India should worry about Nuclear fuel first
by Raj on Mar 19, 2007 06:02 AM Permalink
Yes, friends, thats true, how can you beleive their bluff, in case anybody who knows about the preparations you need to do before conducting a n.test can tell you how much time you need. It was correctly a ready made chinese Pizza that was used.Thats the reason why USA does not worry as much about Paki (so called Bombs) as it does about N.Korea and Iran. USA Prez has to confirm in the Parliament before giveing any aid to Pakistan that it is not developing any bombs and its nuclear programme is on hold.How does Bush give that undertaking if Paki has possesion of 50 n-devices. It was a pact between USA and China to let Pakistan explode a simple Chinese made n-devise, which should give a big bang. Now how can a country manage to bang not one but 5 (so called) nuclear devices in a weeks time.....Dynamite !!! got it !!!!
Manmohan master should think of Indian Hungry people first rather than developing the future threat of war with pak & China. The current situation is that, 40 % people are below poverty line. Only India Shine & Feel good doesnot means everything is ok.Farmers are doing susides every now & then. ? So MANJI, please at least you should not "12 BAJANA" like others?
Americans never think about anything but their self interests. They want a deterrence against China, where they want to use us as a pawn, and secondly they want a country who could buy all their reactors, at the same time bringing our systems under their influence. We need to tread very carefully. We need to retain at all costs, the ability to make a dozen bombs every year, at the same time bring in new plants to produce power.
RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Silly on Mar 18, 2007 11:47 PM Permalink
I wonder why US would need India for that ? US in itself has formidable military strength.
As far as US Vs. China is concerned, both the economies are so heavily dependent on each other, that they cannot afford any confrontation.
RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:05 AM Permalink
Exactly my point too guys. Why would they form an axis with us and help us if China attacks us someday? We cant trust them with any axis that Kutta was suggesting...Get a better name buddy! Dont want to abuse ya...:)
RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 12:19 AM Permalink
There is difference between a totalitarian alliances like USA-Japan defense pact or US-Europe NATO alliance (U attack tiny country in Europe like Holland for example and whole might of USA plus Europe defend it) and COOPERATION.
India can COOPERATE with USA to build up it own defences.
RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 12:32 AM Permalink
Japan and South Korea are good examples. These countries had been asked to kneel down in front of US, they did. US invested so much capital in these countries that they are where they stand today.
It does make sense to make military deals with Israel and USA, instead of relying entirely on Russia. Even diplomatically, closer ties with US is going to take India further as an economy. It also guarantees that China and Pakistan mind their business..
RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:48 AM Permalink
China has done nothing of that sort, and it is gonna be a bigger economy than the US by 2040. We in India dont have to resort to what the Koreans and Japs did. We can reach there in our own way!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:53 AM Permalink
Ok you guys have 35 years more to say that and counting. What I am talking is simple common sense man. You are saying face to face services wont be affected. When half the jobs over the period of next few decades have gone away from US, how will any of you pay for the services. The big Per capita income that you talked about, will actually start stagnating and will decline after 40 years... Then where will you guys go? Your economy can only survive as long as you still retain leadership in Manufacturing. Coz Manufacturing provides jobs, but in next few decades your high labour costs will drive everything out to India / China. No Jobs = No fancy cars, Healthcare and fancy 90$ taxi rides. Now accept that, get a better education and let me say good night
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 01:45 AM Permalink
Your pro-China rhetoric is now making no sense.
China has not even ONE WORLD CLASS technology or world leadership in a single field.
They have NOT been even able to built a top class fighter aircraft till date despite trying for 20 years.
US and Europe dominate world patents and new inventions and also fresh new killer things like Internet, etc.
What makes u think suddenly Chinese will becomes geniues in inventing.
It is techologies that will still keep west on the top.
USA has won 270 nobel prizes alone. UK 100. China 3.
75% of world's key inventions like automobile, aeroplanes, railways, missile technologies, rocket science, electronics, molecular biology, biotechnology have come from USA and EUROPE.
What makes you think that China will come even close ?
Wht makes you think that europeans or americans will not do innovations in the next 50 years ?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:27 AM Permalink
So my dear friend Standard of living is not how many dollars you make. It is how much each dollar counts or fetches! Hope I taught you some economics...you can live in switzerland as a servant for 80000$ PA, but live like a king in India for 20K$.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 01:49 AM Permalink
That is because China s currency is so low that Americans get work there to work on peanuts.
If china is not good then work will stop also and will move to India or eastern europe or even russia.
CHina has sweatshops where their workers work like coolies for 18 hours with pittyful pay. Someday they will revolt.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:38 AM Permalink
Buddy, in 2040, china will wield greater power in the world stage and YES some countries will have to bow to it, just as some countries as you stated bowed to US to become major powers. India will not coz we will be the 3rd biggest by then. Big enough in our own rights
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:30 AM Permalink
Population matters in this buddy. Wait for 2040 to happen. China will still be slightly lower, but its economy will be bigger.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 01:17 AM Permalink
OK a simple day to day example.
I make Rs 50,000 per month and I live alone.
You have 6 kids and a wife and you make Rs 100,000, you surely have a larger economy than me, but what is your living standard ? It will be lower than me and it is likely that you wont be able to spend much on yourself (as in defence) than me.
So despite having a larger "economy" I have an edge over you. I dont have the baggage of excess kids, that's why.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 01:35 AM Permalink
Well I think you are not understand the concept of economy at all.
What the f will happen when China's economy is 'bigger' ?
Will all other countries bow to China ?
China's economy is 'bigger' than India's? Does that mean that China walks over India and does not think it as a threat ? Or is China planning to atack India ?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 01:32 AM Permalink
I rebutted your claim that these are NOT PPP figures.
Labour is paid highly in Switzerland, Germany, Europe, and it means even labour class can enjoy good life in West.
Compare this with how poorly labor are paid Rs 60 dehari wage for working entire day, barely hand to mouth existance.
It actually reflects poorly when the lowest class are UNDERPAID.
You are proud of it that you can pay peanuts and get job done by exploting poor people ?
And differentiate between human services and GOODS.
Higher class goods are cheaper in US for example a Honda Accord in India costs $20,000 versus $15,000 in the US. Also Laptops are cheaper. even high end vaios are cheaper.
It is human services that are paid more in developed world which means lower class ppl having a good life also and not just MBA's in india making Rs 50k and such.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:36 AM Permalink
How long can US survive in this luxury anyway? I mean as I said, when I can fly from Chennai to Singapore in the same cost that it takes for a Taxi ride in the US, the US economy will slowly become incompetent as far as cost capabilities go. No wonder both Manufacturing and services and high tech jobs are vanishing from US.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:21 AM Permalink
Standard of living is not necessarily how many dollars you earn, but measured in Purchasing Power Parity man! Taking a taxi ride from illinois airport to Rockford, costs 90$ in US. I can travel by plane from Chennai to Singapore at that cost. So your dumb 80,000$ & 30K$ is dumb comparison to make.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:09 AM Permalink
And as far as military might goes, China and US cannot protect each others nuclear weapons. Economically both will be stalemated. Infact US will suffer more! China will not be able to sell in 2040 to US if war erupts, but US will not even be producing half the things then. So there will be hyper inflation in 2040 if war erupts with China.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:45 AM Permalink
Boss once the jobs are gone, no one can sustain your 90$ rides. Why would a GE or Honeywell or Intel get any work done in US for so much money, when they can get it done in India or China for peanuts and with better quality as well? You guys in US are gonna be returning back one day coz lots of ya will be having pink slips in hand
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 01:06 AM Permalink
Buddy, in 2040 China's economy will beat the few trillions that US will be worth then. In terms of PPP it will still be behind, but China is 4 times US in population. So that is to be expected.
What I state has been predicted by American consultancies themselves.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 01:14 AM Permalink
So your point ?
According to same BRIC report -
Do you know in 2050 average American will have a per capita income or $83,710 versus China's $31,357 which means average American will be much more richer and having much higher standard of living even then.
And what about technologies, can you ever Imagine where American technologies would have reached by then ?
What is the big deal when a country having 4 times your populatin has a larger economy ?
Why cant u understand that it is nothing ! UP has larger economy than Tamil Nadu? Which state is better ? You decide and learn facts. UP also has larger economy than Karnataka. Is UP still better.
Why is it not going in your head that having larger economy is NOTHING !
RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 12:13 AM Permalink
That's not true at all. If you look at the recent records from John. F Kennedy's rule that have been declassified, US president was advised to attach China to prevent aggression on India. The surprising fact is that US was also prepared to use Nuclear weapons for that..
US always resents aggression, but unfortunately they themselves resort to it in the process of opposing it.
RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:18 AM Permalink
haha..it was right during his presidency era in 60s that China took away thousands of sq km of our land.Where were they?
RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 12:28 AM Permalink
Neo, you need to read history better. I also used to think like you.
And as 'Kutta' pointed, the more apt question would be.. where was USSR at that point ? USA has always been scared of communists and has hated communism. US always maintained a distance from India because we were close to the communists USSR.
As soon as India got into WTO and shunned its communism, US got close to India. You talk business, they'll talk business.. you talk communism, they'll either shun you or bomb you.. simple.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 12:42 AM Permalink
What was that silly "non alignment" virus that India governments time after time practiced. And in practice they were buyng SOviet weapons, why would USA helped India in those circumstances when Nehruji was singing non alignment and hindi chini bhai bhai bullcrap ??
RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:25 AM Permalink
I was replying to the so called doctrine Silly had written Kutta. Kennedies doctrine. US has great intent, that it never practices!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Silly on Mar 19, 2007 12:48 AM Permalink
They never had to.. China and India got into Ceasefire.. and I'm glad they did !
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Raj on Mar 19, 2007 06:30 AM Permalink
Neo, "But there is no denying the fact that US policies are myopic buddy. Forget history! These US governments will make friends and drop them as and when it suits them. They call it dipomacy!Look at the rank bullshit way they have treated Pakistan all these years."
Neo...true the US Govt is self centred, but why should they be,In world politics there is no permanent enemity or friendship..Look at Germany/Britain...France/Germany/UK/Japan...Japan/USA...why do you think that USA has treated Pakistan badly? What do Pakistan has to give to US? Its a headache for them producing the best terrorists in their country..and unleashing them on the world. Mush wants to become a leader of Islamic world, but on what strength. It is more weaker than even Iran and Syria.It relies 100% on western aid, and when a countries army gets involved in civilian matters it looses its focus. Paki military is most corrupt, check out the banglows in which army personnnel inn pakistan lives. 60% of the army budget in Pakistan goes in the payment of salaries, and fattening the Generals pockets.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Our Scientists are right!
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:38 AM Permalink
I dont care much about the history either. But there is no denying the fact that US policies are myopic buddy. Forget history! These US governments will make friends and drop them as and when it suits them. They call it dipomacy! Look at the rank bullshit way they have treated Pakistan all these years. They will treat us the same way if we dont keep our independence in every sphere of activity including Nuclear power. Go ahead, buy 2 reactors from them, but keep your independence by buying 4 from Russia. US has time and again proven in lot of regions that they are fair weather friends and untrustworthy. This taliban and Mujahideen were their creation of 80s buddy. Infact, indirectly the culpability of september 11 goes directly to the US! Just as Rajiv Gandhis murder goes to our RAW!
The Indo-US nuclear deal is based on the urgent need of the country to enhance its power generation capacity. AT the same time we cannot compromise our deterrent defence capability. Our Indian scientist, with their budgetary constraints and endless govt. paperwork have done us proud in the past and will continue to do so. We have the technical capability, I presume, to take care of our deterrent defense needs, irrespective of the nuclear deal. We should therefore not enter into a deal if it is being pushed for by "nuclear business community" but if we do, then atleast lets make sure that our power generation and corresponding investment is not compromised and leave it to our scientists to figure a way of maintaining our nuclear deterrent.
RE:Nuclear Power
by neel sanghvi on Mar 18, 2007 09:46 PM Permalink
it is totally wrong that india needs n-deal for its own need. this all is politically motivated.
RE:RE:RE:Nuclear Power
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:11 AM Permalink
We dont need american reactors for generating power Kutta. Russians can provide both reactors and fuel, as many as we want if we had the money. And India could itself build it. See Kaiga nuclear plant. And Kaiga is 250MW reactors each...so we have gone past the 50MW stage long time back. We dont have the money to spend on Nuclear plants re. Although the plan 2020 predicts 20000MW of nuclear power, its much costly to build nuclear plants. They provide economy in very long run.
RE:RE:Nuclear Power
by Kutta on Mar 18, 2007 11:59 PM Permalink
India's reactors are very small size as compared to other countries with AVERAGE power production of only 30 MW per plant as compared to 500 MW in advanced countries, which means we have a long way to go.
Regarding the development of indegenius thorium based reactors, they are still under development with the first prototype reactor will be tested in 2009. ACTUAL commercial reactors are 20 to 25 YEARS away !!! How much population would have increased by then ?
So we need reactors urgently NOW. If domestically we cant produce mega reactors quickly then go for imports.
In future, Nuclear bombs and missiles cannot used to attack any country around the world. Countries are having nuclear bombs and missiles may use for their festival celebrations and fireworks. Countries are having nuclear bombs and missiles cannot attack other countries by sending missiles carrying nuclear bombs.
Today, countries are interested in developing nuclear weapons and missiles are wasting their time and money.
I am willing to inform that every country must develop their interest in blocking of nuclear bombs and missiles. Blocking of nuclear bombs and missiles means a country have the HI-TECH to block of attacking missiles carrying nuclear bombs are sending by another country. The HI-TECH of blocking missiles and nuclear bombs must be a blocking solution without error.
I am quite willing to inform that no countries can success using nuclear bombs and missiles. In future, any country around the world cannot affected by nuclear bombs and missiles since every country must have the High Technology to block nuclear bombs and missiles. Therefore peoples are around the world can live in happy and peace without fear of nuclear bombs and missiles.
I assured that my above opinion and idea ( invention ) can come true in future.
RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by Rahul on Mar 18, 2007 10:04 PM Permalink
Give some of these inventions to our cricket team also. Don't expose your brain... What you have written is absolute nonsense. If our neighbour has bunch of nuclear bombs with delivery systems, all our cities are finished in no time. Your so-called (and newly invented) "defense" system is not going to deter your enemy from attacking you. Only the FEAR of repraisal is going to deter him; nothing else. I prefer you use your brain first before you start inventing something like this.
RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by murki suresh on Mar 18, 2007 10:56 PM Permalink
Your thinking is totally wrong. How can you develop a blocking system with so much efficiency covering a vast country like India?
RE:RE:RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:18 PM Permalink
Theoretically yes. But such systems can be easily overwhelmed by number of missiles fired at same time on same place! Moreover, with current technological capabilities, even America cannot protect the entire mainland from a massive strike... Even if they spend a trillion dollars on it.
RE:RE:RE:RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by Kutta on Mar 18, 2007 11:25 PM Permalink
Think laser technologies a high beam powered laser can gun down any missile or bomb cuz it travels at speed of light, think kinetic energy space based weapons, and finally think anti ballistic missile to protect key targets, finally think electronic jamming devices.
It looks not impossible.
If this Inventor has developed, he should be encouraged not and not laughed off
This brings an entirely new prospective thinking of defending against nuclear attack.
You are living in cold war era in which there was a mad rush for making missile and bombs instead of defenses.
RE:RE:RE:RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:29 PM Permalink
All the gizmos you state are in drawing board buddy. Raegan spent billions of dollars on it and had to finally accept that there was nothing to show... The only thing that came out of it was the Patriot systems...even that could not prevent every third vintage SCUD from falling on Israel in Gu War 1!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:39 PM Permalink
Well their secret is too well kept then!
Kaali and Durga will probably never work, just as all the other fancy missiles that our DRDO keeps testing eternally.
RE:My future Idea ( invention ) and Opinion about Nuclear weapons and Missiles.
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 10:09 PM Permalink
Tell that to a Pakistan in war with us in the future and losing land to us in war. They will not think twice about using a Nuclear bomb. We need deterrence of a second strike at all costs buddy.
Indian government must wake up...don't be like Indian cricket team...
US government, politicians and all those who deal in nuclear trade want to do business. It has nothing to do any good to INDIA.
Mr.Bush is a not a president but mouth of corporate companies in the US.
Indian government must make the cost of the nuclear deal public.
Why can't we invest in developing the required technology rather waiting for US to gives the know-how? I am sure that the US will not give us the full blue print of the technology. They will have the total control. They need India's support at the world stage now when all is not going very well for Mr.Arrogant American President.
US is praising India as 'the Largest Democracy' in the face of the earth and what not...Don't they know this 25 years ago. Total Crap!!!! I am being polite.
Look at China....Learn one or two good things from them.
RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Rahul on Mar 18, 2007 10:08 PM Permalink
Look, everything is business nowadays. Why India cannot rely on America like Japanese and Australians, for example. Why should India spend their hard earned money in defense systems? When Kuwait was under threat, they paid 5billion $ each to China, US, Russia, Brit & France under the "defence pact" arrangement and virtually allowed these countries to shield them from an aggressive enemy. Why dont India eventually go for such an arrangement? Ultimately, it is a business approach for everything nowadays. Let us see world as one.. Never compare China & India. It is like comparing apple to a potato...
RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 10:15 PM Permalink
Americans have never been trustworthy towards anybody but their own ilk..namely their poodle the UK. Trusting americans is the worst mistake we could do. We live in a dangerous neighbourhood with China and Pakistan ganging up against us. Infact, till date it is only Russia that has supported us in every war. Americans are the least trustworthy bunch around!
RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Rahul on Mar 18, 2007 10:19 PM Permalink
Did you give a chance to America to rely on? Who gave you all the food that you required after WW II? An average American is a good human being.. Give a chance and they will prove to be trustworthy. We fail to recognise somebody's strength and we must acknowledge our weakness first. The term "hate" is not a solution to the problems.
RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Confused on Mar 19, 2007 06:14 AM Permalink
i agree with Rahul. Americans are not cunning nor malicious.. they actually try to make the world better and not to pose in front of the world that they are stronger... America is slightly misunderstood copuntry.. there are many things about america which you realise only if you have chanve to stay in USA but then that is not the point here.... good night.
RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 10:23 PM Permalink
Thats a weird statement Rahul. Americans mean only business and need us only for their strategic needs. In 1971, these guys sent their naval carrier to Indian ocean to show their support to Pakistan. If they want to be our friends, why are they selling F16s to Pak? Russia never sells hardware to Pak because they value our friendship and our defence partnership. Americans just view us as a market to manipulate and earn dollars. Countries strategies are not based on how good the people are. I myself have been many time to the US and I know the people!Even Pakistanis are not bad people. I mean what does an ordinary Pakistani got against an Indian? But can we say the same about Pakistan?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by partha sarathy on Mar 18, 2007 11:06 PM Permalink
100% true. better not to deal with US with the current political trend, let US change there attitidue.
RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:15 PM Permalink
I disagree Kattu. America never entered this war on Terrorism or what you perceive as Islam because of any noble causes. If 3000 people were killed in one go on September 11th in France, even they would have done the same.In the first place, who created the Taliban ,osama bin laden and islamic terrorism? Forgotten your history..It is the same Americans!
RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:26 PM Permalink
Frankly, US is the power to be feared more than China. By creating a hysteria over such things that you state, they try to make blocks everywhere. Yesterday the villain was USSR now it is China. And everything you state clearly shows opportunism on the part of Americans and nothing else... Yesterday Taliban was a friend, and today the enemy! This is exactly what I pointed...YOU CANT TRUST THEM! And by the way, Taiwan belongs to China only. Learn your history right. Just because a bunch of nationalists of old China ran away to that island, doesnt take away the fact that it belongs to the Chinese only!
RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:37 PM Permalink
Taiwan was formed as such only in the 20th century. So I am not talking some 4000 year old history. China has every right over it, just as it had over Hong Kong.
I agree China and Pak have formed an axis of evil vis a vis India. But as I again said, US is the non trust worthy partner for us. Why the heck would they fight our wars? If it is three fronts, then it is we who will have to face upto it!And this balance of power theory is a bunch of crap. Most strategists agree on this today that, such axis never works... Infact we have replaced US with China as our biggest trading partner. A China that needs our market badly for their products and an India that needs Chinese market badly for exports from here, is less likely to go to war with one another, rather than any axis with US.
RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 18, 2007 11:56 PM Permalink
Well, Alliances or axis like these have never been used before buddy. Cold war was a stand off & not an active war between a set of countries based on any axis.World war 2 did have an axis of countries, but they were a different time and a different cause for such an axis to get formed. Infact Hitler could have won WW2 had he not opened so many fronts like a jerk. Had he kept his promise to stalin and kept that side of border quiet, he could have bashed the daylights out of our british friends. But Thank god it did not happened. He was a mad dictator.
Simple thing for India is, WE CANNOT EXPECT U.S HELP IF CHINA OR PAK ATTACK US ANY TIME. TODAY, TOMORROW OR ANYTIME IN ETERNITY! As far Pakistan attacking us is concerned, we can take care of those jerks. No big deal. But China can overwhelm us, and US will not risk a nuclear war with China by supporting us. They will make noise in the sidelines. Even in such a situation, I can bet russians will be more helpful to us. Because they share a border with China too, and even they have differences over it with the chinks.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Kutta on Mar 19, 2007 12:05 AM Permalink
Well to be honest Russia wont come either. Russia has burgoning ties with China as well and their economy is not like America's 12.5 trillion behomoth to support a war.
Only America can fight wars with nearly no effect on their economic. It still grows at a respectable 3.5% which is a lot for an advanced country.
Besides I MADE IT CLEAR I am NOT advocating an alliance.
No one will use nukes until a fool proof defenses are developed.
Wars between China and India or USA will be fought by air forces and navy with conventional weapons.
Why do you think China and also USA invests heavily in conventional weapons ? Cuz they are likely to be used.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Neo on Mar 19, 2007 12:28 AM Permalink
Forget it buddy. U.S help will never come.
I only said, we could expect more from russia. No one will fight others war buddy. We have to fight and win all our wars!So US axis or Russia China India axis is all utopian. Wont work!
RE:RE:RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Kutta on Mar 18, 2007 11:46 PM Permalink
You are forgetting services exports. True merchandize exports might be bigger than China but sercives exports including IT exports of $35 billion are majority to the US.
And this sector of the economy is what is powering the entire current of high economic growth in India with highest paying jobs for educated Indians who would otherwise run abroad. these people buy cars and high end products fuelling overall economy.
I am NOT advocating alliance with the USA.
ALL I wanted was to rebutt ur fact that USA is not a reliable partner.
Japan, Germany, whole western Europe, Eastern europe even ex USSR countries like Poland, Australia, Saudi Arabia, UK , all swear by US defence and nuclear umbrella even if they have their own nuclear weapons with UK having 500 nuclear warheads. Why is it so that US commands 75% of the world's raw military power. Obviously these countries trust them.
I am NOT supporting India do the same only suggeesting we should be vary of China.
Taiwan was made up of peple who dont believe in communism, and they lost war with MAO's army and retreated to an island. US supported a weak country otherwise Chinese would have gulped them long time back like Tibet. Tibet was gulped by China and it was difficult for US to save due to logistical difficulties with an unfriendly pro USSR India in the south.
All I am saying is US and India can achieve a lot by mutual defence cooperation.
RE:RE:WE DON'T NEED N-deal with US
by Kutta on Mar 18, 2007 11:21 PM Permalink
You dont understand cold war politics.
It was USA versus USSR.
Talibans, Osama, and Pakistans all were on USA's block.
It was communism versus capitalism.
Cold was is over.
Why do you think Japan, Australia, Western Europe and even Eastern Europe are now under US nuclear umbrella.
They are preparing against threat from Russia or China.
If such strengh is not shown China will gulp small parking lot size countries like Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam etc.
Thanks to 9000 plus US nuclear warheads and 90 bases worldwide, it is all a balance of power.
In cold war era India always voted against US in the UN and was essentially a client state of USSR as well as military buyer and ally despite non alignmenet bullcrap.
Fast forward 2007 - Indo US trade, economic, social ties are booming.
