The N-deal may not solve any issue but it could solve many issues. India has missed the Electronic hardware bus, earlier it had a very delayed start on introduction of TV, automobiles (unless u consider Fiat, Amby seriously!) Mechatronics and even computerisation amongst others.
The N-deal can serve as an Apex agreement for security clearances, enabling India access to a wide range of technologies. But whether this happens or not depends on whether our politicians give priority to development over politics and take tough decisions to open up Retail, Insurance & Banking sector, land market infrastructure, remove various 'invisible' controls which come in the guise of corruption, infrastructure constraints, outdated laws etc..
We can go FAST FORWARD in Indian economic develeopment, thanks to this apex security clearance, but the leaders got push the accelerator pedal harder.
RE:Apex agreements
by dull roots on Jul 29, 2007 08:02 PM Permalink
At the same time as Dr. Prasad has rightly pointed out, we should not consider ourselves merely as reecivers of techonolgy and stand up to fight for our rightful place. We Indians have done a commendable job in nuclear technology, the only thing was we remained isolated because of denial regimes, now India will find an honourable inclusion. The honour part of it shall not come easy unless we recognize merit and worth our scientists and engineers and fight for their getting wider acceptance. For instance, the US plan for N-fuel visualises India as a 'Recepient nation', factually untrue and a shame on part of those decision-makers, while Russian N-fuel plan considers India as a participant with equal rights and a 'provider' of technology as well. The 'insolence' of West is a glass barrier which will take years to shatter.
RE:Apex agreements
by dull roots on Jul 29, 2007 08:31 PM Permalink
post N-deal, if as ex-Prez had memorably exhorted our politicians to adopted 'politics of Development', India probably can, as he has envisioned, become a developed nation with middle-income per-capita level in next 10 years. The know-how and resources access for obtaining the per capita productivity and quality upgradation in our economy could be made available, thanks to removal of the ROAD-BLOCK by the the N-deal.
RE:Apex agreements
by dull roots on Jul 29, 2007 08:55 PM Permalink
Prez Pratibha, in her erudite inagural address spoke about 'Inclusive politics', the pointers were perhaps to responsible political decision-making to be seriously considered for inclusion in letter and spirit by bodies like NSG. This politics of INCLUSION would get a fillip by the N-deal.
RE:Apex agreements
by dull roots on Jul 30, 2007 05:35 PM Permalink
Our senior Scientists and Engineers are acutely aware of the higher standards in developed nations and are apt to recognize merit in fuller participation with the developed world. Already, India has been invited and invested in multi-nation Fusion research; and it the years may emerge as major contributors to these and other domains. ________Far more important is to preserve the international spirit of reckoning merit and cooperation so unique to the field of sciences, and here scientists and technologists do not need any help!
We will carry out the N-tests, I dont understand why congress party which till yesterday was shit scared of US on conducting N-tests is again shit scared and signing agreements to play a second fiddle. Intentions are not clear. Must be selling the national interests. A minority govt can not decide the future of country. Put the deat to referendum.
RE:Does N-deal really solve issues
by dull roots on Jul 29, 2007 09:20 PM Permalink
It is a catch-22 situation! If there is cognizance of a nation's internal laws sans safeguarding to make the reference unambiguously specific, in an international agreement, it would make Indian laws and agreement subject to those laws! Only legal documents which would be adhered to by Indian Legal System would be those bilaterally or multilaterally signed. Since, US laws shall not change whether India is in NSG or not in NSG, in this case the non-cognizance of such issues work out ok for India. To build an atmosphere of trust needs bit more than a deal, you got to play the cards also!
RE:Does N-deal really solve issues
by dull roots on Jul 29, 2007 10:08 PM Permalink
As a civil democracy and a secular legal state, the security infrastructure is derived from Constitutional provisions in the defence of civil law and the geography, people, heritage, property, interests etc defined by it. ABV, therefore called US, based on the same paradigm, as 'natural partners'. However, if when thanks to their internal laws, the security projection capability of India can be seriously compromised by decision-making per Indian volition, then the perspectives required for extending the commonality of paradigms to mutual safeguarding becomes ambiguous.
These are difficult choices to make for both nations and we can not afford analysis by 'Princeton Simpletons' here. India minds do have the civilisational depth to contend with these vexing issues and make just assessment.
The Nuclear Deal is getting interesting. The endgame in the engagement is also getting clearer. The endgame is clearly dictated by the US. The US wants India to sign the NPT, open its nuclear establishment; more importantly the Nuclear Research facilities,to scrutiny ,surviellance and inspection. This is clear as daylight, but the more long term consequences of all this is to totally rubbish all research activities on nuclear fuels, enrichment, military end use products and delivery systems. This is borne out of a lack of trust in our political leadership. The second point is to close all options for India to seek N fuel, creating a feeling that India has no alternatives The law makers in the US are supreme and India has a negligible lobbying power in the US. Whatever the US negotiators may say; there is no question of violating the US law. The past history of the TAPS reactor for Power generation has shown that the US does not hesitate to invoke penal provisions at the slightest hint of even a potential deviation. Lastly, the sheer effort involved introduces a high level of weariness and unguardedness forcing the signatories to gloss over the fine print in the agreement and getting India to accept and get on with it. Indian Negotiators definitely need to be on guard.
RE:The Nuclear Deal
by on Jul 29, 2007 12:30 PM Permalink
You create doll based on your views & play with that. I create a view for myself. These are complex matters. We get energy for our country, that is the ultimate goal & supplies from NSG. Rest of these things, you create based on your views.
RE:The Nuclear Deal
by antiCongress antiBJP on Aug 02, 2007 12:56 PM Permalink
We cannot stop the USA to enter Iran; but we can stop those people who are working as a servant of George Bush.
I agree that we Indians should not abandon our rights to future N-tests, and our rights to military breeders. If the US reneges on the agreement for whatever reason, whether due to Hyde Act post-Bush, or whatever other reason, then we'll automatically pull out of the agreement too. We'll be no worse off, because we'll be where we were before, except we'll have broken the NSG cartel. Remember, the main prize is not getting US fuel and tech, it is in getting fuel/tech worldwide. Hyde Act can cut off US cooperation, but it can't force the world to cut us off. And once we have lucrative contracts with the rest of the world, it's not clear they'll suddenly stop because of the Hyde Act.
RE:If They Renege, They Lose
by on Jul 29, 2007 11:16 AM Permalink
Yes. future is future, think about current, that is it. Nothing is predictable in future. We can ask our rights any time, if we feel that we lack when compared to others.
Beggars cannot be choosers. We Indians have to learn to take care of our short term interests than dwell forever into a long term hypothesis. In the long term, everyone ceases to exist.
Let us learn to protect our short terms interests, grow our economy and improve our standard of living. Look at China. The US is not its greatest friend. It makes all kinds of deals with the US. Look at the US. China is its biggest threat, but it is making all kinds of deals with it. Know your friends, but keep your enemies closer. That's what they are doing. Let us align with whoever suits best, and benefit from it in the short term.
In the long term, alliances change, agreements are thrown into the winds, new agreements overwrite old agreements. Look at Iran, it broke the NPT agreement and the world is negotiating with it for breaking the agreement.
DON'T LIVE IN THE FUTURE. Let us make the most of the present.
RE:N Deal - Raw Deal ???
by Satish G on Jul 28, 2007 11:17 PM Permalink
For your kind information we need this deal if at all only because we have shortage of uranium.
US is going to gain mostly by this deal
1) By activating their dormant nuclear industry which did not construct a single nuclear power reactort in 30 years.
2) They are going to gain reprocessing technology from INDIA. Read classified briefings done by US thay say new state of the art reprocessing facility build entirely bu INDIA will have american participation during reprocessing. (Nothing but, third party safe guards and thuggary and day time robery of IP allowed by congress government).
3) Techinically caping our ability weapon design [cap on testing/quality] (our thermo-nuclear weapon will not be deployed with out full yield proof test). So we will be using heay boosted-fission weapons.
4) Indirect control over INDIA. They will use this deal as cover more defence contracts which in turn will give them more levers to influence and sanction us.
5) US will use INDIA to their dirty job.
6) FMCT [fissile material cut-off treaty] is right around the corner with recently new CD so our weapons stock pile will also be freezed soon [cap on numbers/quantity].
7) They can threaten to use right-to-return when ever they feel we are going to againest their interests and influence our foreign policy.
Our economic growth will forever be held hostage to US. With this deal we are shortening the development cycle by 10 years at the most. For 10 years (short term) benif
RE:N Deal - Raw Deal ???
by Sharad on Aug 01, 2007 10:01 AM Permalink
US is not the only Supplier we will be dealing with. There are more than 40 countries in the Nuclear Supplier Group (NSG). In fact, France and Germany are two countries which possess some of the most advanced technology in NSG. Australia is ready to supply Uranium to India. Russia is ready to supply reactors to India. Canada is a major producer of uranium. They are waiting to supply. It is a matter of business and making money for them. The next step is India agreeing with IAEA on safeguards, and making the deal with NSG. After these two are accomplished, only then the 123 agreement will go for ratification by US congress.
As regards India becoming a stooge of the US due to this deal, the fear is misguided. India is already part of a loose alliance - US, JAPAN, INDIA and AUSTRALIA. With Indian economy growing, India cannot be treated as any other small country. India will continue to form its own independent policies.
RE:N Deal - Raw Deal ???
by KuKuMars on Jul 28, 2007 07:39 PM Permalink
When dealing w/ decent people why you remind me beggers & pirates. Do what ever right go ahead & do it, of course we are in right track.
Dr Prasad is worried that opposition or parliament is not taken inti confidence.
I ask whom he propose to take into confidence. 1) Those MP's who are in the Jail 2) That MP who was involved in Human trafficking 3) Or all those MP's who do not allow Parliament to function for days toghether and are not ashamed in taking pay check and Perks for NOT attending the parliament.
Communist will sing songs in praise of USSR >> Do we have any technology to be taken from USSR. ( They can not give you anything which works) Most recent is failure of Russian Missiles to India for Submarine launch. Can Russia give Fertiliser plant technology. Or we want to go for Chernobyl like technology.
RE:We have to move forward from where we are in the last 3 decades!!
by Peter Parker on Jul 28, 2007 11:53 AM Permalink
Does US Government do research on fertilizers? All this is done independent of the GOTUS and if you have money you can buy any fertilizer tech you want. You compare US to Russia for tech transfer. My point to you is 2 fold. 1. US does not do tech transfer easily (ask Britian, Australia and other poodles). Russia may not have the best tech but atleast does do straight forward tech transfer if you have the money. 2. The effectiveness of tech transfer also depends on the GOI. Kangress government with its commie friends are not going to allow a transformation of the agricultural sector as they will loose their respective holds.
RE:RE:We have to move forward from where we are in the last 3 decades!!
by ASHOK on Jul 28, 2007 01:02 PM Permalink
My observation is simple:
What ever we have taken from Russia , it is not sustainable. It includes Flying Coffins >> MIG planes also.
Have you seen a Russian tractor !! I have seen few in 1970's , you needed a barrel of Diesel to make that piece of scrap to run. It was beating Hummer in Fuel consumption.
India took Tractor technology from Germany and FORD US. Today India is selling tractors to US !!
It is upto us to adopt and improvise technology. In many many and many areas of technology Russia holds no edge.
For Nuclear technology, do you think we can buy Uranium from Russia. Russia has plenty of it. But can our commies get it without strings. If it was possible, than India would not have gone to US and India would not have been sitting in Nuclear isolation for last 30 YEARS!!
Tell me what is your take on this. Why Russia did not support our Nuclear program , we needed help all along, for the past 30 years !!!
Rather Russia wasted BARC time on silly projects, which gave no output even after 40 years of joint research.
1. Hyde act does not allow for any reprocessing, this treaty allows for it. Exemption agreed to by president GOTUS. Is this enforceable with a new administration? I dont think so. 2. Hyde act requires all FBR's under civilian, This one allows the current to be in military. Which is enforceable with the next admin, the hyde act.
3. Skirted the issue of testing by addressing the revocation procedure. In actuality the congress will pass a law overriding this and therefore this revocation agreement will be superceded.
What i am saying is that the US can reneg on any of the provisions agreed to by saying it does not reconcile with our Hyde act. India has no legal recourse. So india either renegs the agreement or gives concessions. Only vajpayee has the guts to reneg on the agreement, others will make concessions. But vajpayee is not going to around for that long.
This agreement will take at least 5 years before its going to be implemented. So in 5 years, the president of the US is most probably going to be democratic and the prime minister of India is going to be BJP. Given those dynamics, this agreement is mostly going to be short-lived. Trust the next GOTUS to reneg on the reprocessing agreement. Also expect them to demand Fissile Cutoff agreement. From the GOI side there will be heavy pressure to conduct another series of tests to validate the Indian H bomb design which was believed to be a failure (although scientists claim to have fixed the bug but military needs a series of successful tests to ensure a viable nuclear option). In effect to have a viable deterrent policy the nuclear devices have to be tested thoroughly. By just having 1 or 2 tests creates doubts not only in the military but also other powers. So in effect this agreement does what president bush says it does a. Caps the Indian nuclear program from testing more. b. Caps the Indian fissile material by restricting the number of fast breeder reactors. c. Caps the strategic Indian nuclear research by imposing real costs on the Indian Economy.
Also i sincerely doubt that the India will benefit from advanced US tech that easily. Remember even poodles like Australia and Japan have been denied tech and there are all kinds of provisions that US requires to prevent tech leaks. Although this has not been stated explicitly, this is one of the implicit effects po
RE:Long range forecast doesnt look optimistic,,,
by Raja Bhattacharya on Jul 28, 2007 10:59 AM Permalink
thanks - really appreciate your solid and learned views and in principle i totally agree. your argument leads and enriches the present discourse. but i would still leave a hypothetical situation for the future. governments have to keep doing what's right for the moment.
we already spoiled our country to a great extent, you see now every body those who are educated or in business or even in government the life has changed from 1991 because of our policies are changed, from independence you went behind russia what you got, old useless guns, and he taken away your agriculture good quality products at a pea nutprices, at least we went along with USA we got good education and good medical facilities, why you dont go to russia to get operated or for higher studies, because it is outdated technology and they wont treat you like americans, Keep your mouth shut and live what america says you will prosper and your children will prosper and your country will prosper, for a huge population like us and 50 percent below poverty better first we try to meet our liveliwood, then nuclear,
