Like Swami Prabhupada says "Indian and Hindus have become so sinful, so rascal that they are beyong reform and redemption. If it is their fate to suffer and rot in hell then who can save them? All they want is sex, alchohol, meat and gamble. They see shining glass that is called western culture and follow it like a fly that is about to be zapped. These so called Hindu rascals do not even know what is Hinduim and who i s a Hindu".
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 12, 2007 10:39 PM Permalink
Caste and Religion are the human creations buddy - Gods dont establish the religions, only the human folowers do ..
The Vedas are in danger because the people who knew them never documented them or never bothered to share them with others.
Talking about Brahmins, well - How many of them are leadning life like Brahmins? Forget meat eating Bozzing etc .. they are secondary .. but a Brahmin is supposed to be a role model for the society, again by profession and not by birth .. How many of the modrn day brahmins are role models? If they are not, why do we need them?
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:09 AM Permalink
Vedic Knowledge Sharing was restrictd because people feared the misuse of knowledge in unqualified hands - but it finally lead to "Knowledge Limitation" and finally resulted in Extinction ... if we have lost 99% our Vedic Heritage its because of People who never documented them and we are watching the Scientists reinvent everything. In fact this also has enabled the Leftists to question the credibility of Vedas (Of course no one takes them seriously, thats a different issue)
today's situation is different .. Knwoledge is there to be shared and improved. Unless there is a scope of learn without bounds there is no chance of Vedic scripts surviving.
for Instance, I am not that good at sanskrit( Rather Not at all good inspite of learning it), so I would prefer to read the Scriptures in English, whats wrong with that?
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:18 AM Permalink
Jai Sand That is the way to go. If you are interested check out the site I mentioned above.
Reading up, not just our scriptures but also other religions, is the only way we can save our hindu identity and protect ourselves from the cultural onslaught of increasing sophistication.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:59 AM Permalink
Hey Hey IH,
Come on man, I do love my culture, I follow it (or atleast try to follow it as much as possible) and am proud of it - but it does not mean I should not read the other literature .. right? Let us know what others are saying too!
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:41 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, it is no use of me to convience you to do this and that. Throw bible, quoran out and embrace your culture! Start with Baghavad Gita and by then you would already be in love with Lord Krishna, After that see where he takes you. I wish you all the luck.
I admire your candidness. You are right that all scriptures are difficult to understand without a knowledgeble person near by. My experience could be a guide. I joined a Church for 2 years to learn about Christianity properly. I learnt to appreciate a lot of things about Xanity but did not find a lot of stuff agreaable. These days internet is a good resource. It took me another 2 years to understand Islam. I have been studying ancient India and Hinduism these days for the last 2 years in my spare time. I must say that reading Islam and Xanity has increased my respect for several aspects of Hinduism and I have also gained a fair amount of understanding on the drawbacks in Hinduism
So yes, it take time but the results are quite rewarding.
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:32 AM Permalink
Hmm SH, point taken - I did read the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran in bits and pieces ( frankly I couldnt understand them much too as there was no scholar nearby to answer some of the questions) - Reading Bible and Quran was like watching the same movie in English and its remake in Hindi in a different background. (For that matter even the Holy Hindu Scriptures)
The only difference is that the Holy Hindu scriptures re so voluminous and I am not sure when I can say I have read them hehe,
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:18 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, I didnt say whats wrong and what right. You can do whatever you wish. You can even learn in Portugese for all I care. I am just telling you things as it is. If you learn Vedas outside Guru-parampara, it carried no effect. Period! Just like Lord krishna says "Chatur varnam maya Shristam Guna Karma Vibhagasah" (I created the 4 varnas based on Guna and Karma).
Vedas are based on Smrithi and Shruthi. You cannot argue based on documentation. There was a purpose behing the documentation process. Just to protect the sacntity of Vedas and ensure that if doesnt get misused, Vedas adn Upanishads were protected through memory and oral forms.
Just like Simple Human here arguing about Cooking a Cow....Vedas say dont kill a cow, but if u have to then follow this and that...just as a contingency plan. There is a difference. Since it has NOT come from Guru-Sishya parampara, people like SH have misunderstood the purpose behind it.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:30 AM Permalink
Simply Human, I have said it before and I am saying it again. You are just a retarded mornon! Atheism is stupid. If there is no God tell me where is your soul located? What is the difference between a body that is alive and a dead body? Where does the soul go to as energy can neighther be created nor destroyed.
Just because you dont understand E=MC^2 doesnt mean Einstein doesnt exist.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:49 AM Permalink
You raise an important point IH .. So you say that the Concept of God is necessary only to control Chaos ..
Just for a moment, assume that every Human being on earth is disciplined and well organized. Do you mean to say the concept of God would be unnecessary in that context?
(This has been a question raging in my mind for years)
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:57 AM Permalink
Absolutely not. See, it takes maturity to understand higher concepts. How can I say that there is no airplane just because I have not seen it or driven it? All of us have mind and intelligence. In Vedas it is called Subtle body. We have two bodies one material, one spiritual. One can never be happy in his life with wealth and woman if he lets the spiritual body starve.
For a person who is not intelligent enough to comprehend the concept of God, society controls him by applying the laws and rules of religion. It is just like following a traffic signal. If you dont obery the rules, you get pulled over and penalized. If you aware of what the traffic rules are for and understand them then you naturally will respect its laws. So you have two options: you either understand the laws or you just blindly follow them.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:02 AM Permalink
IH YOu are not allowed to talk about Vedas as you have not read those under a guru as your own claim.
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:06 AM Permalink
I am born in a Brahmana family and I had my threading ceremony. I did receive this knowledge in the Guru-parampara system and I can defintely talk about it. I went to ISKCON to learn about Baghadvad Gita and the Vedas and learned it from a authentic Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada.
So I carry a certain bit of authenticity with me. What ever I say is the knowledge passed on me for generations.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:02 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, forgive me for saying this. I suspect Simply HUman is a converted neo-christian trying to confuse and lure people into Christianity by reading bogus materials on Hinduism. Never let another person drive your intelligence. If u born a Hindu, then read Baghavad Gita. It will answer ALL your questions.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:08 AM Permalink
Yes I am different because God is beyond rationality and knowledge. Being born in Hindu-India is a privilege that we take for granted. Concepts like respecting elders, taking care of family, living life with purpose and purity is something westerners struggle with.
I am not a Xian hypocrit that preaches "Thou shall not kill" and turn around slaughter animals and munch them for lunch....
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:14 AM Permalink
You also have no knowledge of Xanity. "Thou shall not kill..." is meant only for humans and is expilicty stated as such.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:21 AM Permalink
IH What hippocracy???? YOu claim that Vedas is the most authentic source of all knowledge. Then why don't you quit Phd and return back to some ashram with a Guru and spend the rest of your life in pure knowledge?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:13 AM Permalink
Why then Hindu scriptures are full of sacrifices and meat eating. BTW please show be one reference from Gita or any Hindu scriptures that bans non-Brahmins from eating meat. The only Hindu scriptures that disallow eating meat for Brahmins were those sections of puranas composed after the advent of buddhism.
Ram used to hunt and so did all individuals in Mahabharat and Ramayan.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:18 AM Permalink
"He comes from a group that thinks Science and Religion are mutually exclusive entities"
I have double masters and I am working on my PhD. It took me all this education to understand that there is nothing beyond Vedas and that the supremacy of Vedas and Vedic literatures are unquotionably correct.
You can conduct all your experiments and research but at the end, you WILL know that Vedas are the supreme. Just like a cell phone comes with a user manual, universe comes with Vedas for guidance.
There is no science that is beyond Vedas. Your material science is still in the state of going to moon and mars where Vedic science has concepts of transmigration and time-space travel....
Before you tell me that science and religion are mutually exclusive think again. Hinduism is not Xinaity to say that the world is flat and lynch the scientist.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:09 AM Permalink
IH
YOu are a DODO reborn, actually a perfect Hindu who refuses to read the scriptures because they are way too holy and has all kinds of pagan beliefs on alcohol, meat and sex. Ignorance is indeed bliss!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:23 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, do you understand/know that he is a neo-christian? Read his messages again, he follos a subtle plan of slowly tapping the shell and then breaks into the core with his faulty and biased arguments.
Man, these people are trained well! I can smell out these smooth guy. Having spent a decade in US has taught me all the cunning ways these guys lure people into Xianity just because they dont have a future in the west anymore.
All I can say is, watch out...I am Hindu, a practising and dedicated one. Since you are too, learn Baghavad Gita and throw bible and koran out....it is far inferior and has no quality content.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:21 AM Permalink
It is still better than your converted christian butt who can only get money from texas and spend it on preaching crap to idiots. Go on, I welcome you to take all the crap away from hinduism and into christianity. Once Hinduism is deviod of all the idiots, world will understand the true supremacy of Hinduism. I can even sponsor a sack of rice for that! ;)
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:20 AM Permalink
If you decide to fight then go ahead - I shall go to some other stupid thread, pick up a "religious" fight with another stupid and come back here once you two guys resolve your differences :))
But I dont want to spoil such an interesting, heated but decent discussion!
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:28 AM Permalink
Looks like this thread is one of the longest threads on rediff .. HURRAYYYYYYYYYY!
And more significantly, "NO MESSAGES REPORTED FOR ABUSE SO FAR" .. is this a Rediff Record?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:23 AM Permalink
JS Dont run! Ok start a new thread and let us carry ahead a decent discussion.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:29 AM Permalink
Agreed. But Mark/SH, please be honest. I am honest, I am Hindu-Brahmin. Why dont u accept that u r a converted christian and then argue?
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:37 AM Permalink
Mark is his original name Jas Sand. He used to pose anti-Hindu anti-Brahmin messages on forum and I used to fight with him to stop doing that. He then changed his name to Simply Human and the rest u know...
Now I think he is trying to run away...I dont know whatup with that.
Lord Krishna says "For temporary there is nothing permenant and for permenant there is nothing temporary" in second chapter. So based on that, he had left I think.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:34 AM Permalink
How does it make a difference whether he is a Christian or a Hindu. The arguments wont change right? ( As long as one doesnt attack others religion/personality)
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:47 AM Permalink
Before starting a new thread, let us discuss what are we arguing about. If this thread is about anti-Hinduims, anti-Brahminish then there is no point for me being here. I dont have to prove a point that my not eating meat, not drinking, not gambling, not havbing sex outside marriage, I am "holier than thou".
If this argument is about how Vedas must be adhered to without questioning then I shall be glad to continue.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:39 AM Permalink
Thnx JS Some sanity restored on the board. Please continue with the original discussion we were having.
Chaos happens at all levels: at a soceital level and at the level of any physical phenomena. This allows us to deals with Chaos on a global basis.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:57 AM Permalink
JS I need to leave in next 20 min or so.
I would like to understand how Societal Chaos is a stochastic model. I agree that we cannot use the Deterministic Chaos theory but we are dealing with it in a maetaphoric sense.
Societal Chaos does lead to features like "Strange Attractor"
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:49 AM Permalink
One lase message before I take a break abnd offer my head to my customer hehehehe ... ________________________________________________
Yeah but the societal level crisis is essentially a Stochastic Model, unlike the Deterministic Chaos and belongs to a different category .. right?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:40 AM Permalink
There is a difference. A christian has no instrinsic and appreciateive knowledge of Hinduism. Its jsut like me talking about Xnaity. Dharmaic and abrahmic religion are like oil and water they dont mix.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 02:14 AM Permalink
JS I am leaving for the day. Nice talking to you. This thread was probably a record. I hope we can continue our discussion at some other time and place. Ciao.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:46 AM Permalink
Ok IH & SH, lets all get back to the discussion -----------------------------------------------
But Excuse me for a few minutes guys ... some crisis Brewing up on the Project and the customer is screaming .. I hope to fix it and get back in a few minutes .. but please do continue the discussion
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:38 AM Permalink
come on guys ... 2 is a company, 3 is a party and 4 is a blast ... lets continue this together
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:40 AM Permalink
Blast will result in profanity and will lead you to walk out. Unfortunately our brains are still underdeveloped to allow us to logically communicate in a group.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:33 AM Permalink
Based on your statement in one of the threads above:
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:27 AM Because its my choice! paris Hilton is hot -> fact. I wanna marry Paris Hilton, its my choice...I dont have to quit what I do to marry her...I will do it when I want and how I want when I actually want. When the time is right it will happen. I learned this from Baghavad Gita too. So at the right time, I shall do that too....No my coercing or cajoling....
I can only say that I finally understand you. YOu wont find me talking to you again. Good Bye IH.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:00 AM Permalink
JS
I like your analogy between theists and atheists. YOu are correct.
To answer your question, I would ask you to take a step back. The biggest problem with organized religion is that it refuses to deal with chaos and the dark side of the human mind. Think, what if if Chaos is an essential ingredient to all creativity. Chaos and non linear dynamics have already become very important fields of study.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:10 AM Permalink
Well well, I am not talking abut Dynamical systems and Chaos theory. But Chaos I meant lack of order in generic sense.
And IH, Let him be a Hindu, Muslim or a Christian, let him talk. If he is right we agree and if he is wrong then dont you think we are well equipped to call his bluff?
I havent seen him talking negative about Hinduism - he is just talking about Thiests and Athiests with respect to Science. He comes from a group that thinks Science and Religion are mutually exclusive entities where as You and I believe they accommodate each other in a subtle manner.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:16 AM Permalink
"He comes from a group that thinks Science and Religion are mutually exclusive entities"
I have double masters and I am working on my PhD. It took me all this education to understand that there is nothing beyond Vedas and that the supremacy of Vedas and Vedic literatures are unquotionably correct.
You can conduct all your experiments and research but at the end, you WILL know that Vedas are the supreme. Just like a cell phone comes with a user manual, universe comes with Vedas for guidance.
There is no science that is beyond Vedas. Your material science is still in the state of going to moon and mars where Vedic science has concepts of transmigration and time-space travel....
Before you tell me that science and religion are mutually exclusive think again. Hinduism is not Xinaity to say that the world is flat and lynch the scientist.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:27 AM Permalink
Because its my choice! paris Hilton is hot -> fact. I wanna marry Paris Hilton, its my choice...I dont have to quit what I do to marry her...I will do it when I want and how I want when I actually want.
When the time is right it will happen. I learned this from Baghavad Gita too. So at the right time, I shall do that too....No my coercing or cajoling....
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:30 AM Permalink
IH I think I finally understand you. I am quitting the discussion. YOu wont find me talking to you again. Good Bye
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 01:22 AM Permalink
IH What hippocracy???? YOu claim that Vedas is the most authentic source of all knowledge. Then why don't you quit Phd and return back to some ashram with a Guru and spend the rest of your life in pure knowledge?
A diamond never need to point out that it is shining. So much for your double masters....
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:44 AM Permalink
Atheism is DANGEROUS because if u dont understand and acknowledge the presence of Lord then chaos would prevail. If there is no God then there is no reason for controlling your senses. There is no reason for not eating meat or having sex. Atheism leads to indiscipline and the Lord WILL punish you by making you a Shudra.
Buddha propagated atheism because at that time there was lot of animal killing the name of God.
In the current society, atheism will never work. Infact it is extremely dangerous.
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:39 AM Permalink
Thiests call it God and the Athiests call it Nature - its again the Jargon that differs!
Athiesm talks about to Humans who have become great by good deeds and spirituality talks about people who have become Great (Gods) by, again, Good Deeds.
Thiests call it Ganga and Athiests call it H2O.
Thiests pray at Temples where as Athiests pay respects at conferences.
Sorry if I sound stupid, but I dont really find a major differene between two forms of life :))
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:45 AM Permalink
Soul is basically the energy that binds your Neurons together in a specific format.
If somebody can invent a method to Transplant the Human brain, then one can say that the SOUL NEVER DIES because the same brain takes life in a different body ( all though its not as easy as its said) - Hindu Mythology refers to "Parakaya Pravesh" where in a soul keeps changing its bodies ... and if brain transplantation is successful then that Mythology becomes History!
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:41 AM Permalink
Correct me if I am wrong but I think Buddhism is a form of Athiesm but it got so beautifully imbibed in the Hindu culture.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 12, 2007 10:52 PM Permalink
This clearly shows your pathetic pea brain. Once the word 'Brahmin' in mentioned you get off your feet and jump high in bashing the individuals. You idiots done even understand Brahmins is a status of a person and doesnot in any way represent a community or an individual by birth. According to our Vedas and Baghavad Gita, Brahmins is the highest virtue a person can attain. A brahmin is a selfless human, a noble person full of knowledge, bliss, compassion to fellow living beings. A brahmins is not born a brahmins but made a brahmins by strick adherence to Vedic scriptures.
The brahmins you are referring to are people who are identified by caste based on birth. I have nothing more toe say on that topic because its erroneous and faulty!
The brahmins I am referring to are the Vedic Brahmanas, who live life in a pure way as stated in the Shastras. You can be a son of a fisher woman and still can compile Vedas and live the life as a Brahmana (Veda Vyasar).
You just want to find an excuse to gratify your senses by blaming a community for not "guiding you" and "guiding the society".
Why dont you empower urself and live life according to the Vedas. Why dont u stop dirnking, eating meat, having sex outside marriage and stop gambling and be a "role-model" your self?
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 12:03 AM Permalink
IH Do you really think u can ever find such a qualified person to teach you. Do you think Lord Krishna really exists? Do you think he looks same as portrayed in photo's? I am sure that you are going to waste your life and find no answers like the millions ppls who blindly follow the religion are doing.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:25 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, Like I said, ISKCON is awesome. There are bad apples everywhere that doesnt mean the farm is bad.
Just follow what Lord Krishna says "Forget all you damn religion and come to me, I shall protect you and take care of you".
You have misunderstood, ISKCON does acknowledge the supremacy on Vedas. Vedas ARE the ultimate and ISKCON adheres agree with that too. However, they follow the Niguna aspect of Brahman (Lord Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead). Even in Baghavad Gita, Lord Krishna say you can either choose Saguna Brahman or Nirguna Brahman. It is your wish. However, God is a person and that is what ISKCON preaches.
By the way, I am not a ISKCON member. What ever I am telling you is from my Smrithi and Shruthi. ;)
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 12, 2007 11:03 PM Permalink
The brahmins I am referring to are the Vedic Brahmanas, who live life in a pure way as stated in the Shastras. You can be a son of a fisher woman and still can compile Vedas and live the life as a Brahmana (Veda Vyasar). ________________________________________________
This is what I am saying too - How many of the current day Brahmins are like this?
What makes you think I was bashing individuals. Would you look at my message once again?
All I said was, a Brahmin is said to be a role model for the society but the current day Brahmins are not!
Where did u find individual bashing in that?
Taitteriyopanishad cleary defines the role of a Brahmin and could you tell me how many of the Brahmins even have read it?
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 12, 2007 11:53 PM Permalink
Simply Human, welcome back mate! Missed you. :)
You cannot just read Rig Veda as if it is Tom Clancy's novel. If I have to learn Vedas, I must first go to a mutt, get a qualified Guru and then learn the Vedas. Otherwise it carried no effect.
I am too waiting for the day when I can throw these material bondages and learn Vedas, Shastras and Upanishads. Until that day, I am going to practice what I am doing now and hope my Lord Krishna's mercy I can find my path.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 12, 2007 11:59 PM Permalink
Well then we differ in thoughts ..
I have no problem with Meat or Egg eaters as long as they dont force me to eat it.
As of contribution whether it is $1000 or $1 it doent matter - $1 from a guy who earns $2 has more significance than $1M from a guy who earns $10M. What I meant to say was to be a Brahmin, contribution to the society (without expecting anything in return) is a must.
Would I be dragging it too far if I say that the LAST BRAHMIN to be born so far had been Jagadguru Adi Shankaracharya?
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 12, 2007 11:27 PM Permalink
Good. So we are in the same page. Althought I agree with you, one must note that not ALL brahmins who are born in a Brahmanical family have bad habits like you say.
Dont you think if a person is born in a family or pure brahmins he has access to Upanishads and other Vedic scriptures much more easier than other families?
So in that sense, you must not just comment on your friends and co-worker that are born in a brahmins family but also look at brahmins in India even till date follow and observe strick Vedic rituals and penances. Just pay a visit to Kamakoti peeta (pl dont comment on Shankaracharya) and look at the brahmin children there. Their face is full of tejas and nobiolity. They are born in brahmin families too.
There are other brahmins that I personally know who are polluted with meat eating and alchohol. I was one too before I read Baghavad Gita and started living the life of a pure Brahmana.
Let us use our discrimation to separate good from evil. Not discriminate against a community or an individual based on their birth etc.
In this topic, the head Tantri is a pure Brahmana who stricly follows Vedic scriptures. He has my compelte and total support in the sense of ordering the purification jsut because he says so.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:08 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, the last true Brahmin is "Swami Bhakthivedanta Prabhupad" and his followers. These men and women of ISKCON are amazingly devoted. There are few bad ones I agree but ISKCON has Lord Krishna's grace for producing numerous Brahmins. These American and Europeans have begun to embrace Vaishnavism and are becoming top-class Brahmanas. I have had the oppurtunity to meet so many ACTUAL brahmanas at ISKCON.
My concerns are totally on Indian political scenario and Hindus destorying Brahmanical culture with their hypocracy and politics. I wish there are people to tell them and I wish these people would listen to them.
Adi Shankarar was a incarnation of Parama Shivan himself. Who can ever say a word on him? Even the last Shankaracharya has been credited with numerous achievement and has instrigated millions back to divinity and God-head.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 12:07 AM Permalink
One more knowledegable person (SH thinks) knows all the facts. Comeon man, you just cann't answer my one question.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:15 AM Permalink
Indian The questions you ask have no answer, just the way you point out. At this point, the implication of "facts" is simply epistimology, which is basing arguments on the information actually mentioned in the books like scriptures. Whether that information is true cannot be verified.
what is bothersome to me is basing arguments on personal or popular beliefs on what scriptures say rather than the actual contents in the scriptures.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 12, 2007 11:57 PM Permalink
IH Thanks for the warm welcome! Appreciate it. By your own logic and admissal, if you have not read and understand vedas then you also deprive yourself the right to preach the contents of vedas. Without actually reading and understanding the contents, all your statements will be mere perceptions or beliefs.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 12, 2007 11:48 PM Permalink
I beg to differ. Vegetarianism is not a different issue altogether. You are spirit soul living in a temporary material body. So is an animal. What right does a man have to slaughter fellow living being? Meat eating is wrong, period! There are not ifs and buts.
Contribution is a qualitative term that cannot encompassed easily. Each person has their own boundries in terms of contribution. If I can make $1000 contribution towards charity then it is within my boundry. That does not make me any less or more brahmana than what I am. A poilitician offering charity does not become a brahmana so what u r saying is erroneous. Intelligence is by God's grace and it occurs irrespective of Brahmins or Khatriyas etc. So not every brahmin is intelligent enough to contribute to science and technology.
As long as you do Thri-Kaal Sandhya Vandhanam, chant Vedas, practice devotional service to the Lord obserive the four princinples ANY living soul in this world is a Brahamana.
It is forbidden in the Vedic literatures for any Jack and Jill to read Vedas from the internet or any such sources. Vedas must be inherited in a Guru-Sishya Parampara. Otherwise it carried no weightage. Gayathri mantra must be given to one by a qualified Pandith or a Guru without which it carried no effect. You can chant all Sri-Sutham and Purusha-Sutham you want but it was not gotten from a Guru then it is pointless.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:17 AM Permalink
All thru these years I never considered ISKON to be Hindus as they limit themselves only to Krishna Tatwa but not Vedas. May be I missed looking at it from another angle - may be those scandals planted the seeds of contempt in me against ISKON. Lemme have another look at it
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 12, 2007 11:37 PM Permalink
Meat Eating and Alcohol are Secondary - they spoil and individual but dont harm the others. Vegetarianism is a different issue altogether ...
My point is .. anybody and everybody who is born in a Brahmin Family and Who is a Vegetarian and Who Chants Gayathri Manthra 108 times a day does not become a Brahmin unless he contributes something to the society in terms of Science, Education, Spirituality or Livelyhood, without any selfish deeds.
As of the Access, Most of the Vedas are Digitized and can be accessed freely over the Internet.
Brahmins have lost the respect of other castes in the modern times because they have fallen prey to the materialistic world like others and lost their position of being "Holier than Thou"
There are Hundreds of Vedic Schools running allover India but we dont find too my people dedicating themselves to their cause newayz.
Moreover, all that starts well need not end well - one may have a good beginning in life but one distraction is enough to ruin everything and thats what ishappening to the Brahmin community now.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 12, 2007 11:45 PM Permalink
If this Tantri is a pure Brahmana, then he would never compromise over what is correct and would be ready to sacrifize anything for upholding the principles. Let us wait and watch whether he lives upto the expectations.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 12, 2007 11:51 PM Permalink
Meat eating was banned for Brahman only post the advent of Buddhism. Rigveda explicitly describes beef dishes. Cow slaughter was very much prevalent during sacrificial rituals and the meat relished.
IH and me are having such discussion for a week now. I think the issue is much more fundamental.
Most Hindus (>95%) have not read our scriptures in details in original form or in translations. What most of us speak is based on perception and beliefs. IH is a perfect example of that. What amuses me the most is that he is deferring the task of actually acquiring the correct knowledge when he gets time. Till then it is all perceptions that are not backed by facts.
The situation is not very hopeless. Here is what I found.
http://www.ee.lsu.edu/kak/books.html
Subhash Kak is a very good writer and has a very good knowledge on ancient India and Hinduism. He is a distinguished prof at LSU in EE.
I have read book no 6.
Also of very high quality are research papers of Ambedkar in which he asks some very good questions. His work is not a criticism of Hinduism but actual scientific work in uncovering our ancient history. If anyone is interested, I can provide some brief and interesting arguments
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 12, 2007 11:45 PM Permalink
Inadvertently Human u r ediot man, just went thru some books and u think u got them. Who told you that Brahmins shouldn't be eating meat or drink?
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 12, 2007 11:07 PM Permalink
Why dont u stop dirnking, eating meat, having sex outside marriage and stop gambling and be a "role-model" your self? ------------------------------------------------
I cant stop them because I never started them ( Except for Gambling at a few Casinos wherein I only lost money never won a single Dollar)
But it still does not make me a role model as long as I have poision inside my mind.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:16 AM Permalink
Jas Sand, I didnt say whats wrong and what right. You can do whatever you wish. You can even learn in Portugese for all I care. I am just telling you things as it is. If you learn Vedas outside Guru-parampara, it carried no effect. Period! Just like Lord krishna says "Chatur varnam maya Shristam Guna Karma Vibhagasah" (I created the 4 varnas based on Guna and Karma).
Vedas are based on Smrithi and Shruthi. You cannot argue based on documentation. There was a purpose behing the documentation process. Just to protect the sacntity of Vedas and ensure that if doesnt get misused, Vedas adn Upanishads were protected through memory and oral forms.
Just like Simple Human here arguing about Cooking a Cow....Vedas say dont kill a cow, but if u have to then follow this and that...just as a contingency plan. There is a difference. Since it has NOT come from Guru-Sishya parampara, people like SH have misunderstood the purpose behind it.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 12, 2007 11:45 PM Permalink
IH You have not had the time and opportunity to study vedas, puranas, upanishad and manusmriti. Please read Rigveda, the very first Hindu religious book that appeared. Read it thoroughly and then come to discuss.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 12:15 AM Permalink
SH, Forget about books and what people write. If you believe in Hindu religion and Gods (Shiva, Visbu or anyone), why so many religion came into picture. So you think they were originated because God wanted it? Another question, Do you really belive River Ganges (Ganga) and Goddess Ganga are the same? Think about it...
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:19 AM Permalink
Indian, if you are in 5th grade and I explain you Rocket Science you would think it is pack-of-lies and BS. This is exactly what u r arguing about.
First develop Bhakthi and Sraddha. After that surrender to his Lotus feet. You will get the knowledge afterwards. Dont try to do PhD when you cannot even pass high schol.
RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 12:45 AM Permalink
When you don't have the answers then you start spamming my msgs. God is/should be much different than what you/we can even imagine. I have thought about all these much more than you are going to spend throughout your life. And after that i got my few answers (not all) Whatever gods we are aware of Shiva, Vishnu, Allah... cannot be Gods. They were defined to be Gods by certain peoplese who never understood the God (or may be they want to simleify the things for common peoples). That's the only reason so amy regions exists as nobody knew who's the God and how to reach him/her. I am not denying their existence but their powers. I don't go to temples, i don't read Vedas, i don't chant his/her name because i believe it exists everywhere (even inside me). I don't have any ambitions to go to heaven (like you) as i know it exists in hell too. I don't care about eating non-veg becuase even plants have souls (with a different body) so you cann't be 100% veg unless you you stop eating. Don't one day you will understand what i am talking about.
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 12:24 AM Permalink
I am missing your point Indian. No two people think alike and everyone is free to follow ones form of worship and life - so if there are many religions let there be.
The concept of Gods has more to do with Characterization - it doesnt matter whether the human called Rama existed or not - but the Character called Rama would exist forever and would be a role model.
IH,
I agree they are based of Smrithi and Shruthi. But it was based on the situation in those times and the modern times are different.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 12:47 AM Permalink
God is/should be much different than what you/we can even imagine. I have thought about all these much more than you are going to spend throughout your life. And after that i got my few answers (not all) Whatever gods we are aware of Shiva, Vishnu, Allah... cannot be Gods. They were defined to be Gods by certain peoplese who never understood the God (or may be they want to simleify the things for common peoples). That's the only reason so amy regions exists as nobody knew who's the God and how to reach him/her. I am not denying their existence but their powers. I don't go to temples, i don't read Vedas, i don't chant his/her name because i believe it exists everywhere (even inside me). I don't have any ambitions to go to heaven (like you) as i know it exists in hell too. I don't care about eating non-veg becuase even plants have souls (with a different body) so you cann't be 100% veg unless you you stop eating. Don't one day you will understand what i am talking about.
RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 03:12 AM Permalink
Now you are asking the important question. Its really difficult to answer who's the actual GOD, what he would look like... Just imagine our universe as a ball floating inside a vast sea, can we even imagine how vast the sea is as long as we are inside that ball. The Gods we know (if exists) must have been created to control and continue this earth. There will be thousands of these worlds, where people will have different kind of body, different beliefs and may be different God. Can you believe that in that world people would be worshipping same Gods Rama and Krishna? No, because Rama and Krishna never took birth in that world. Then whos Vishnu, Shiv, the Gods we believe on. It%u2019s just like a post or designation (like PM of India), its not the actual entity. They have been assigned to do certain job for this world (that we know). Its means they have to die just like us. Our life is only 100 yrs and may be they would live for trillions of yrs. If you go through the "Kalyan", they have defined the age of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva.. But as nobody knows whos the ULTIMATE God, that%u2019s why they treat somebody (Krishna, Vishnu...) as GOD whos immortal. Let me tell you one beautiful story. Once there was a queen and she was worried that her husband would leave her after his death. So she prayed to God and she said she don't want to be separated from her husband so he should never leave the room even if he dies. God said ok. After sometime, her husband died. So she called the God
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Indian on Jun 13, 2007 03:14 AM Permalink
and asked her how he could be dead as God promised her that he is never going to leave this room. God said, he is still in this room only and when they gave her the powers, she saw that there exist a whole world inside that room and her husband was ruling that world. So point is it%u2019s us who believe in science can't believe that something can move faster than light or there could be another world (may be millions) inside this world (as it violates the basic law's of physics). Now the question is how we can feel that power? I believe there are only 2 days; one is after your death when soul gets freed from this body or through meditation when you start feeling the presence of the soul inside you. Even if you follow the Brahmcharya, worship the God, you are actually searching for that soul inside you (whether you agree or not). And unless you find that soul you can never reach to God. Once you find it, you won't belong to this world.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Jas Sand on Jun 13, 2007 01:15 AM Permalink
Indian,
Who said I have had ambitions to go to Heaven. I only meant to say my ambition's to understand the Hindu way of life completely ( if possible in my life time)
I dont think you need to go to temples and chant Bhajans as long as your deeds are good. I go to a temple to pay my respects to the Gods, I love Manthras because they enable me concentrate on whatever I am doing and I love temples because of the Ambience and I love and Respect Gods because of their characters.
I go to temples to only thank god for whatever he/she/it has given me in life so far.
So, again, we are doing the same thing even though you stay back home and I visit a temple
RE:RE:RE:Hindus are pathetic
by Simply Human on Jun 13, 2007 12:24 AM Permalink
Indian I was brought up as a Hindu but I am now an atheist. To me the significance of Hindu religion is my identity with my past and no more. when I celebrate hindu festivals and chant the prayers, I feel like touching the roots of my civilization. Nothing more.
And that is why I read up. Reading scriptures is very rewarding because it is a window into our past, into our cultural ethos and help us realize who we are and where we came from. Scriptures contain a lot of information on cultural and social life in the past and are often the only historical records of an ancient past.
