RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by mohammed ahmed on Mar 22, 2007 04:50 PM Permalink
REALLY GOOD POINTS TO DISCUSS NOW.
1. You have to first understand the word personal. differentiate it from Criminal. We are a secular state but a heterogenous society. personal Laws and customs have to be respected here to keep the nation united for political and social stability. what is harm in it. is RELIGION not the first law-maker in human history? why not give it a place now? science changes evry 10 or 20 years. Universal values never change. at least in ISLAM.
2. SECULAR electoral democracy always should give political importance to the different small communities. Otherwise it will become ONE-COMMUNITY MOBOCRACY.
3. every social issue should reflect politically also. because politics only finally makes policies and laws. Only Paid people should not come forward to help the opressed. there should a political will.
4. in democracy giving edge and importance to the marginalised through some policy is natural. otherwise it will cease to be democracy. you are UNNECESSARILY calling it APPEASEMENT.
5. Politics is all about People, Protection, Policy and Power. VoteBank is a basic element of a Democracy. Politicians want Power in their side and People want Protection and Policies in their sides. Better to give a kid CHOCLATE than STICK to keep him happy. isn't it?
RE:RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by An Indian on Mar 22, 2007 08:57 PM Permalink
Reply to Mr. Mohammed Ahmed on Mar 22, 2007 04:50 PM [REALLY GOOD POINTS TO DISCUSS NOW]
Dear Mr. Mohammed Ahmed
As per the information available with me, earlier also I had posted against your message, may be your posting seemed to little logical. With due apology I would mentioned that few of messages Muslim brothers, so fanatic, I really do not the reason, but again I do not have intention to malign anyone or so. I have read many message and it is absolutely impossible for me get those authenticated and since I am not fundamentalist, I am reasonably well read (as my friends tell, including Muslim friends) so I do not carry any blind faith to any belief, especially if it is controversial. I read many message and admire the readers have taken lots of pain to collect all those. Some people of written for and against Hinduism, another person has challenged he is the only person who has reproduced all the details from Quran and Hadith, and challenged if anyone has the guts to oppose it. These are endless discussion may have their importance, but the point I had raised, for these one need to go for any research.
Now I come to your points. I am fully aware about the difference between Personal and Criminal. I have never tried to synonym each other. What I have tried to explain is the exploitation of Personal Law for gain of individual or a community. Yes, our society is heterogeneous, which is very common and quite obvious in liberal, tolerant and modern society, which this (Indian) society is. If we go back couple of centuries ago, though the question of modernity would not arise, but Indian (unfortunately people of vested interested call it as Hindu) society were tolerant. All these vested interest has brainwashed that Muslim culture means Arab culture, to create a division among the Indian people, so that a particular segment could be used as slave (or vote bank). Not only this, such division suits the religious leaders also by which they gain name, fame, money, power etc. etc. and lots of followers, disciples etc. etc. that too without acquiring any skill in themselves. You, yourself contradicted that by using the word keeping unite and different personal law. You have tried to club Personal Law and Customs together. Gentleman, Customs are Personal Laws could be legitimise upto an extent till it does not affect the homogenous society, till it is not part of the constitution, till it is not part of country%u2019s law and till it leaves no opportunity where any dispute could arise about the supremacy over the country%u2019s law applicable for all the citizen. A Personal Law, if at all is applicable, it must not be parallel to country%u2019s Law and in case of any dispute the country%u2019s law applicable for all the citizen should be binding and final for all. Now you imagine, if tomorrow some other community say Hindu demands for Personal Law, what the result would and not only this as to why in secular country the rights of all the people should be same and should be govern by homogenous law, of course Custom is different matter, but again in case of dispute, it must be sorted out through the law of land only and not by any religious or community leaders. In all the developed countries, there is no such personal law for any particular community and what you wanted to portray that religion is above and must for political and social stability. Though I do not blame, but I strongly feel that your opinion is based on the brainwashed thinking that religion is supreme than country and society. So far the unity of country it is based on the patriotism and not on religion, otherwise all the Muslim dominated countries should have been a single country.
So far your claim that the small communities should be given political importance, I do agree but do not agree for exploitation. Apart from this Muslim country is not the smallest minority rather they are majority among the minorities and this is the reason they are being used as vote bank. One of the smallest minority is Paarsi community and I personally salute them for their contribution towards our motherland is phenomenal and never come and should for political importance or so, otherwise also our constitution provides ample scope for the safeguard of minorities interest and I also agree that there should be safeguard but in the name of minority the exploitation is a crime. You can never justify like Godhra Train incident is act of minorities, of course the aftermath was horrible, and we must avoid such incidence at any cost. I have very clearly defined about MAJORITY and MINORITY and there should not be any classification of majority and minority on the basis of religion.
My dear brother, terrorism can never prosper without local support, now you have of identify and come forward, who are directly involved, who provide support services, like shelter, local network, logistics etc. etc. You are the right person who could bust these
Muslim community is absolutely not marginalized, they are the majority among minorities and otherwise also no other community gets such privilege, even not the smallest one like Parsis. The practice of religion is very individual matters and why a particular segment should be allowed to enjoy the taxpayer%u2019s money. Taxpayer%u2019s money is for society and for all, and absolutely not for particular community and too for few people who goes for Haz. Can you reply me in case the religious Majority claim the same facility, what would be burden to country and who would pay. My dear brother, be logical, one can feed a person as per my wish based on humanism but how one can allow to be robbed himself. You have taught a lesson that vote according to your own narrow interest, imaging if the religious majority also start thinking like this, what would be situation of religious minorities. I indeed shocked to know your opinion about democracy, let the majority start think through your angle. Probably mine is last generation where people are liberal, I horrify when think about our coming generation.
RE:RE:RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by mohammed ahmed on Mar 23, 2007 03:29 PM Permalink
My freind An Indian
If i get your email-ID i will tell the basics of polity society economy etc. actually you are confused by the words of RELIGION and SOCIETY. POLITY and ECONOMY.
Society is Group of People of particular land at a particular time in history. whereas RELIGION has been the IDEOLOGY which that believed in and practised to evolve into a custom and habits then culture and in a larger frame of time it is called a CIVILISATION.
ORDER is a need of an individual as well as society. so came the need of LAWS which are derived from customs and cultures.
Now the BELEIF is the keyword every where. either beleiving in SELF any Person or any IDEOLOGY. SCIENCE is also a beleif. because even if it changes its theories evry 20 years We beleif in what presently it says. after 20 years that beleif may get busted.
BEST is to judge from experience and history as science also advocates so. Science has started taking help of SURVEYS and STATISTICS.
Now come to RELEVANCE. Universal human values are always relevant everywhere. Just by geographical boundaries and historical timings dont change those values. other things may change with time and place.
Now STATE is group of people from that SOCIETY to especially guarantee the security and governance and the ORDER. thus comes POLITY into picture.
ECONOMY is faculty of organising money materials and livelihood activities. so that efficeincy increases.
And finally Science Arts and Religion are basic human faculties working since the origin of mankind. Intelligence Emotions and Divine guidelines are three tools for the respective faculties.
Among them Divine guidelines should be Supreme. because to ERR is human. and Divinity can not do any error.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by An Indian on Mar 25, 2007 11:54 AM Permalink
For Mohammed Sahim Ahmed
My dear Mohammed Sahim Ahmed,
I have read your response very carefully and tried to analyse your thoughts. I at outset I would like to mention that I am not at all interested to challenge the knowledge and intelligence of anyone including you. I am not interested to comments on the quotes, misquotes, interpretation and misinterpretation of any religious (or so called holly) books. I am not at all interested to annoy also anyone because the time, the biggest ruler of the universe would decide his or her fate. I have read many posting, many quotes, misquotes, interpretations and misinterpretations of many reader, are from different religion (started by so called prophets or otherwise) and with different ideologies. From example, one of the readers of Muslim community has justified that Jihad is absolutely correct and it must be carried on, he even compared the court judgement of, like death sentence and killing of enemies in war field with the killings of Jihad. I can never think such an illogical advocacy from other community people, when I asked what would be the consequence if everyone starts executing own judgement and if someone gives verdict against you that an insane person has no right to exist in this world or at least India, then what would be your reaction, I could not get any reply. One gentleman had been challenging that what he had quoted, all are directly from Quran and Hadith, and there is no scope for denial. Other people have quoted different interpretations from different books of different religion but it is almost certain that they have spent lots of time, and have carried lots of research, and are quite intelligent also, but the authenticity of all those are difficult to examine and hardly carry any relevance in the present context and which affects our day-to-day life. Your have also tried to explain some definition which definitely has its relevance, but simultaneously twisted and misinterpreted in accordance to your own wishes and own benefit, and tried to justify judiciously. I am least interested to exhibit my wisdom, rather interested for such matters which are affecting the life of majorities (not religious), exploitation of resources by certain of segment of people etc., encouraging group criminality like terrorism and related activities, anti-country activities etc.
Now I reply to your queries:
You comments: Society is Group of People of particular land at a particular time in history. whereas RELIGION has been the IDEOLOGY which that believed in and practised to evolve into a custom and habits then culture and in a larger frame of time it is called a CIVILISATION.
My reply: I do agree with your classical definition and would like to reply you that invasion of Arab culture (not Muslim religion, as religion is nothing to do with the culture, as the culture is based on the geographic location, available natural resources, climate etc. which develops over the centuries, but it is the biggest problem that Islam religion in many of the country has become synonymous to Arab culture, which is quite surprising and it is only because of illiteracy and fundamentalists have exploited it brutally. What I could not understand that many readers expressed their understanding of Indian Culture as Hindu (religion) culture and more interestingly it has been embedded with Brahmanism. I could not understand that why Indian people do not understand that Hindu religion (if at all is religion, has not been started by any prophet, probably this is only natural religion) has been adopted from the culture of this country, the developed by all the residents of this over the centuries, so far the Brahmanism is concerned it is not even treated as religion, rather the hard core people follows the literature developed by the people of this country (interpret and misinterpret according to own convenience). I am no Brahmin, not SC, not ST or not Dalit, but hard core Indian, I never subscribed to discrimination, untouchability etc. based caste, creed, religion etc., I have lots of friends (may be because of may nature, working environment, repeated travel across the country) mingle and mix up with everyone and even do not know their cast, creed etc. as never bothered to enquire as do not believe, except Muslims, whose name itself differentiate.
Conversion to any particular religion is not at all related to deviate from own culture (as changed to Arab culture) and import a culture which is not relevant even, for example using a particular style of water pot, which may be relevant in Arab countries, where there is scarcity of water but in India, where plenty of water is available and a series of such examples are available, though you may have several justifications, though such practices hardly makes any difference for Majority, but it definitely differentiate from Indian culture. But any such Arab culture, which harms the Indian culture (which is your culture also), is absolutely objectionable. Though there are series of Muslim families are there who are true Indian, have not adopted culture, few examples of celebrities like; Traditional %u2013 our present President H.E. APJ Abdul Kalam (I have great respect for this elderly man, though he is Muslim, but not fundamentalist, always speaks for the country not for his community, as he is an icon of India and not of a particular community, though your own Muslim people have posted many filthy languages), Modern %u2013 Sania Mirza etc. (I admire this girl as she brought lots of glory for our country, but she got bashing from dirty religious leaders, called Maulvis / Muftis etc. and no one from your community came for her rescue, though she is from your community. Everyone knows the contribution of these Mullahs / Maulvis to this country, they have spread of the fanaticism and few fools have make the community totally vulnerable)
Your all the definitions are relevant, but you, yourself have contradicted, because of your narrow interests, which I would elaborate in my forthcoming paragraphs.
Your comments: ORDER is a need of an individual as well as society. so came the need of LAWS which are derived from customs and cultures.
My reply: I totally agree with you but from considering that these are derived from Indian culture and not borrowed from barbaric medieval Arabic culture.
Your comments: Now the BELEIF is the keyword every where. either beleiving in SELF any Person or any IDEOLOGY. SCIENCE is also a beleif. because even if it changes its theories evry 20 years We beleif in what presently it says. after 20 years that beleif may get busted.
My reply: Again here also I agree to your definition of BELIEF, but do not agree to your definition of SCIENCE, as the science is not based on belief, rather based on facts, rat her on proven fact. I wonder if you are a true educated person or brainwashed person. You have to understand the difference between HYPOTHESIS, THEORY AND PROVEN FACTS. You have right to believe that everything would be busted in next 20 years, but I could not understand what is importance and relevance of such definitions in practical life of ordinary persons and what the relation to my question. AS TO WHY THERE SHOULD BE WASTAGE OF TAXPAYER%u2019S MONEY AS SUBSIDY TO HAZ PILGRIMAGES. Taxpayer%u2019s hard money is for the development of country and for all not, and absolutely not for appeasement to particular community people.
Your comments: BEST is to judge from experience and history as science also advocates so. Science has started taking help of SURVEYS and STATISTICS.
Now come to RELEVANCE. Universal human values are always relevant everywhere. Just by geographical boundaries and historical timings dont change those values. other things may change with time and place.
Now STATE is group of people from that SOCIETY to especially guarantee the security and governance and the ORDER. thus comes POLITY into picture.
ECONOMY is faculty of organising money materials and livelihood activities. so that efficeincy increases.
And finally Science Arts and Religion are basic human faculties working since the origin of mankind. Intelligence Emotions and Divine guidelines are three tools for the respective faculties.
Among them Divine guidelines should be Supreme. because to ERR is human. and Divinity can not do any error.
My reply: You have copied the definitions from some textbooks and do not challenge them because the essences are correct and I also agree.
Now I refer to your 2nd comments as ask you as to human values advocates for brutal killings though Jihad. In many postings your community people have justified Jihad, citing series of illogical examples, like judgement of death sentence by a legal court judge, like killing by a soldier in battlefield etc. etc. In how many case have you come forward openly to condemn and resist such cruelty and criminality? To how many terrorists and their supporter, you have taught the human values. In how many occasion you have informed the Police about the suspect activities of your community people (Terrorism that too in society can never prospect without the help of local community people). You introspect any then reply to whole India, instead only to me.
Now your other subjects:
Now, GOOD POINTS TO DISCUSS.
Your comments 1. You have to first understand the word personal. differentiate it from Criminal. We are a secular state but a heterogenous society. personal Laws and customs have to be respected here to keep the nation united for political and social stability. what is harm in it. is RELIGION not the first law-maker in human history? why not give it a place now? science changes evry 10 or 20 years. Universal values never change. at least in ISLAM.
My reply: You refer my earlier reply for comprehensive understand, which I paste once again to refresh your memory. Since it seems that you are brainwashed by fundamentalists or you turned as fundamentalist, you have evolved your own opinion that RELIGION is the first lawmaker. Gentleman at least in India as per the proof available the public governance started (the law is the part of this) started by Chankaya (Mahmamantri of Chandragupta Maurya, the initiator of Maurya Imperial around 350 B.C.), centuries before the Prophet Mohd born. Gentleman, befor exhibiting your knowledge, kindly go to the books of political history, you would get lots of stuff, which would open your mind and brain, and would help you to come out from the clutches of these fundamentalists who teaches you the Prophet Mohd. Was a supreme authority in the world or so. Gentleman, belief can be based on fact and belief can also be based on blind-faith, and your decisions decides you what you mental level is. When it is a question of gaining the knowledge of truth, do not go to your Mullah / Maulvis rather go to everywhere (must not be confined to religion or religious leaders, which is the basic reason for the fundamentalism in Muslim community). Otherwise also a prophet centric religion initiated by a prophet, a man, how can be so capable who can make a law that too universal. Is it ridiculous and highly disgusting? For your information the original name of the person was Vishnugupt, who originated Governance (with name Chankya) and Economics (with name Kautilya), and the public governance and the Macro Economics of the entire world is based on this theory only. The person Vishnugupt, or Chankya or Kauitlya is known as wisest man even in the world, recognized by not only in India rather in entire world, recognised by not only Indian (to whom you called Hindu, including your ancestors, otherwise also, in that ere there were no religion). Go through the textbooks based on evolution of Governance and evolution Economics of any county in the world, be it European (U.K. etc.), be American (U.S.A. etc.), this theory is there. Even in the today%u2019s context, the comparison of a world%u2019s known wisest man with Prophet Mohd. is ridiculous and only a hopeless illiterate can thin it. I would like to mention you that Virshnugupt, Chankya or Kautilya was not practicing any religion, as no religion or at least no prophet initiated religion was there as no prophet had born at that time,
Your comments: 2. SECULAR electoral democracy always should give political importance to the different small communities. Otherwise it will become ONE-COMMUNITY MOBOCRACY.
My reply: I do agree to your comments, but SECULAR electoral democracy does not mean allowing a community to exploit the situation and resources at the cost of the others. Thereafter the community should be allowed to use the resources to harm that country and people thereof from where they are getting the resourc. Otherwise also, Muslim is not small community, they are the major community among minor communities and quite a substantial percentage. One of the real minority community is PARSI, you have not mentioned their name. The contributions of PARIS%u2019s are phenomenon and they are not communal.
Your comments: 3. every social issue should reflect politically also. because politics only finally makes policies and laws. Only Paid people should not come forward to help the opressed. there should a political will
My reply: I agree to you comments, but it should be for all not for particular community. The political will should be for all and not to buy vote bank. So far the development of oppressed society is concerned, I full agree but for that one has to strike the root cause, which is hidden under the Personal Law. Politicians do not spend from their own pocket and it is the public money. Since it is the public money, the public should have right to examine the root cause so the problem is uprooted permanently and the oppressed should come out from the clutches of oppression in real sense and for the abolition of any Personal Law is must. Otherwise the oppressed people would never be developed and few unscrupulous religious and political leaders would keep on pocketing the hard earned money of taxpayers and I am sure that the majority is not going to sit idle forever. In case you really love humanity and not airing your message for your narrow interest than you would strike the root cuase.
Your comments: 4. in democracy giving edge and importance to the marginalised through some policy is natural. otherwise it will cease to be democracy. you are UNNECESSARILY calling it APPEASEMENT.
My reply: Your above comments is for wastage of taxpayer%u2019s money siphoned towards Haz subsidy. Your thoughts are ridiculous. You rather all should tell me why it is for a particular community and too for the people who wants to quench their religious thrust. Why not all the people whose majority percentage is constituting taxpayer%u2019s collection. Why only Muslim should get all these, why not other community and that too few people. I am not interested to quench my religious lust through other%u2019s money, they why my money be used. Is it not legal robbery? Whether your Islam teaches you to exploit the legal robbery, enjoy at the cost of others fund?
Your comments: 5. Politics is all about People, Protection, Policy and Power. VoteBank is a basic element of a Democracy. Politicians want Power in their side and People want Protection and Policies in their sides. Better to give a kid CHOCLATE than STICK to keep him happy. isn't it?
My reply: You gave a new definition to politics. I am sure that you must have borrowed this definition from unscrupulous leaders. Gentleman, politics is for governance and the governance is for uplift and development of society and country. Politics is definitely is about People (but not for a segment of people), Protection (from whom, it is from outside and not for the people who creates the problem for themselves, like Godhra Train Carnage, Bomb Blast etc. and subsequently cry for protection again at the cost of Majority%u2019s interested, to whom you have killed) Policy (for the entire country for few people), and Power (what is the meaning of it?)
I am sure few people would like your definition and if it so then why so cries against NARENDRA MODI, after he also did something for the society and majority as whole, so as VHP, Bajrang Dal etc. Now you can think if the majority starts thinking like this then what the consequences would be. I am drawing a line between community as you have drawn rather I am asking what the loss of life of Indian people (be it Muslim, Hindu or others) would be. I have lots of friends who are journalist, who had narrated few very horrifying stories, which had never come openly. I am sure that the victims were not at all related to Godhra Train Carnage and probably may not be aware even that what for they are being punished. Probably it is the mistake that those people are the part of the society who felt that isolating themselves from the society is good, the society though may not got directly involved in the act of terrorism, but provided support service, be it shelter, logistics etc. and never came up or informed Police about the criminal activities of people only because they belonged to them, which resulted the community vulnerable. I had discussed the matter many people as to why our country should earn bad name and why the people should be butchered, I reciprocated with a very pathetic answer i.e. I should tell what the solution should be. Mohammed Bhai, till the date I could not find the answer. If you can find tell the people, which could bring calmness and brotherhood, I would be grateful.
I and we may not be here, but I am worried about the next generation.
Your comments: 6. Now Hajj subsidy is no more. But then what was wrong with that if Thomas Cook can offer you Rs. 1-lakh package of 2-week Europe Tour and made profit also. Now, you decide GOI and Air India gave subsidy to Muslims or made PROFIT from 2-lakh indian Muslim fliers and tourists within 2 months time.
My reply: I do not know whether Haz subsidy has been totally abolished or not. I only know that someone had filed a PLI (I salute to that Patriot, who had at least thought about such discrimination and gross wastage of money for the lust of few people) and thanks to Supreme Court who gave the verdict to maintain the spirit of the Constitution of India. And now the question is how much money has been wasted, what is value of those money as on today considering the inflation index, what are the developmental work has been sacrificed in lieu of Haz subsidy and it has affected the life of our people, especially deprived and poor, there of millions of poor and elderly people who lives below poverty line, there are episodes of Kalahandi (Orissa) where millions of people died in hunger, there are millions of farmers who suicides ever years, such series of disasters are there. Mohammad Bhai, you have justified Haz subsidy, do you not feel that exploitation of such situations is not shameful. Yes, there are other wastage also, lawful and unlawful, I invite you to bring all such issues as an Indian (but without any revengeful intention), come to the mainstream of the country. So far your justification of profits are concerned, it not me or the majority or the deprived people, it is a particular company. You have shamelessly justified some wrong doings. I request you to go the such people who have enjoyed the subsidy of Haz and ask them to donate the double amount to any charity organization say CRY etc., I declare you in advance you would get kicks, thrashes, abuse from you so called brothers for whom you favoured.
Your request: The Basics: My freind An Indian
If i get your email-ID i will tell the basics of polity society economy etc. actually you are confused by the words of RELIGION and SOCIETY. POLITY and ECONOMY.
My reply: There is no meaning, because I am sparing my precious time from by busy schedules for my country so that all the country should read and throw their comments. I would never like to be brainwashed by any religious fundamentalists, be it Hindu, or Muslim or any other religion. I am born and brought up in liberal family. I am neither Brahmin, nor SC, ST, Dalit etc. I never asked the caste creed etc. neither from colleague nor to the person with whom I am initiating friendship. Even today also I hardly know the caste of my majority of friends, because practically if they are from different part of country. Of course Muslims are recognized by name. I am quite hopeful as my Muslims friends (male and female both) are quite progressive, they never subscribe to such dirty fundamentalism, and more surprisingly Muslim females are more logical and courageous. I learnt my first lesson may be 20 years back, when I was too young, it was my first job and father of one of my senior colleague (Muslim), had told that my community would became vulnerable in years to come. The elderly gentleman was Bar-at-Law and the era was when these unscrupulous leaders were spurting, he gave main reasons as, the illetracy and lack of modern education (mainly in females), unscrupulous religious leaders, to whom the community relies. I know Muslim families who wants to come out from the clutches of fundamentalism though they do not come out openly, but that they shown their desire their next generations should go out by any mean.
MY EARLIERS FOR DETAILED VIEWS Reply to Mr. Mohammed Ahmed on Mar 22, 2007 04:50 PM [REALLY GOOD POINTS TO DISCUSS NOW]
Dear Mr. Mohammed Ahmed
As per the information available with me, earlier also I had posted against your message, may be your posting seemed to little logical. With due apology I would mentioned that few of messages Muslim brothers, so fanatic, I really do not the reason, but again I do not have intention to malign anyone or so. I have read many message and it is absolutely impossible for me get those authenticated and since I am not fundamentalist, I am reasonably well read (as my friends tell, including Muslim friends) so I do not carry any blind faith to any belief, especially if it is controversial. I read many message and admire the readers have taken lots of pain to collect all those. Some people of written for and against Hinduism, another person has challenged he is the only person who has reproduced all the details from Quran and Hadith, and challenged if anyone has the guts to oppose it. These are endless discussion may have their importance, but the point I had raised, for these one need to go for any research.
Now I come to your points. I am fully aware about the difference between Personal and Criminal. I have never tried to synonym each other. What I have tried to explain is the exploitation of Personal Law for gain of individual or a community. Yes, our society is heterogeneous, which is very common and quite obvious in liberal, tolerant and modern society, which this (Indian) society is. If we go back couple of centuries ago, though the question of modernity would not arise, but Indian (unfortunately people of vested interested call it as Hindu) society were tolerant. All these vested interest has brainwashed that Muslim culture means Arab culture, to create a division among the Indian people, so that a particular segment could be used as slave (or vote bank). Not only this, such division suits the religious leaders also by which they gain name, fame, money, power etc. etc. and lots of followers, disciples etc. etc. that too without acquiring any skill in themselves. You, yourself contradicted that by using the word keeping unite and different personal law. You have tried to club Personal Law and Customs together. Gentleman, Customs are Personal Laws could be legitimise upto an extent till it does not affect the homogenous society, till it is not part of the constitution, till it is not part of country%u2019s law and till it leaves no opportunity where any dispute could arise about the supremacy over the country%u2019s law applicable for all the citizen. A Personal Law, if at all is applicable, it must not be parallel to country%u2019s Law and in case of any dispute the country%u2019s law applicable for all the citizen should be binding and final for all. Now you imagine, if tomorrow some other community say Hindu demands for Personal Law, what the result would and not only this as to why in secular country the rights of all the people should be same and should be govern by homogenous law, of course Custom is different matter, but again in case of dispute, it must be sorted out through the law of land only and not by any religious or community leaders. In all the developed countries, there is no such personal law for any particular community and what you wanted to portray that religion is above and must for political and social stability. Though I do not blame, but I strongly feel that your opinion is based on the brainwashed thinking that religion is supreme than country and society. So far the unity of country it is based on the patriotism and not on religion, otherwise all the Muslim dominated countries should have been a single country.
So far your claim that the small communities should be given political importance, I do agree but do not agree for exploitation. Apart from this Muslim country is not the smallest minority rather they are majority among the minorities and this is the reason they are being used as vote bank. One of the smallest minority is Paarsi community and I personally salute them for their contribution towards our motherland is phenomenal and never come and should for political importance or so, otherwise also our constitution provides ample scope for the safeguard of minorities interest and I also agree that there should be safeguard but in the name of minority the exploitation is a crime. You can never justify like Godhra Train incident is act of minorities, of course the aftermath was horrible, and we must avoid such incidence at any cost. I have very clearly defined about MAJORITY and MINORITY and there should not be any classification of majority and minority on the basis of religion.
My dear brother, terrorism can never prosper without local support, now you have of identify and come forward, who are directly involved, who provide support services, like shelter, local network, logistics etc. etc. You are the right person who could bust these
Muslim community is absolutely not marginalized, they are the majority among minorities and otherwise also no other community gets such privilege, even not the smallest one like Parsis. The practice of religion is very individual matters and why a particular segment should be allowed to enjoy the taxpayer%u2019s money. Taxpayer%u2019s money is for society and for all, and absolutely not for particular community and too for few people who goes for Haz. Can you reply me in case the religious Majority claim the same facility, what would be burden to country and who would pay. My dear brother, be logical, one can feed a person as per my wish based on humanism but how one can allow to be robbed himself. You have taught a lesson that vote according to your own narrow interest, imaging if the religious majority also start thinking like this, what would be situation of religious minorities. I indeed shocked to know your opinion about democracy, let the majority start think through your angle. Probably mine is last generation where people are liberal, I horrify when think about our coming generation.
RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by Mike Gandhi on Mar 22, 2007 04:25 PM Permalink
Answers: 1- Any country there is no law and order, so that particular community solve there dispute as per their religion law.
2,3- Our country is not secular for that Munna Bajrangi is terrorizing the girls those married with other cast. Gov. and Public are impotantat.
4- Read the Sachar report. It is not going any particular community. The politicians like, Modi, Advani, Sukhram, Bangaroo Lakshman, Chautala, Fernandes, Mulayam, Mayawati, Jaylality and many many more,are usurbing the public money.
5- We are marshal race. We are not vote bank. We are kingmaker.
I request you dont read Hindu Terrorist Literatures (RSS GANG'S PROPAGANDA).
RE:RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by Secular Indian on Mar 22, 2007 04:32 PM Permalink
Your arguments are rather lame, forget India, even in the UK (where there is no excuse of law and order), Muslims are demanding Sharia personal law.
RE:RE:Why such hatred, dissidences, and differences
by An Indian on Mar 22, 2007 05:58 PM Permalink
Hello, Mike Gandhi
I amused to read your comments and frankly speaking I have sympathy with you as you are under the clutches of fundamentalism.
1. You want to tell that in India there is no law and order, other than Muslims all are living in anarchy. At least introspect yourself, if you little mind, just think as human, forget that you belong any religion. You wanted to tell that in whole world there is no law and order, be it a developed country like U.K., U.S.A, Canada etc. You wanted to tell that see we Muslims have only rest are fool. You have right to so, as an insane think that he is wisest creature in the world and rest are mad. In fact, it is a firm belief of civilized countries (I repeat civilized countries, democratic, not ruled by dictator, self styled prophet etc.) that Muslims go the trouble starts and it is vulnerable society. 2. I have do not have your control over mind but India is declared secular country. There is definitely Munna Bajrangi, but you all are Munna Bajrangi, just to quote, I saw a clip in yesterday%u2019s (21.03.07) DD2 programme ROZANA telecasted at 07:00 PM, where a Muslim girl is openly telling in front of camera that she loves Sumit and she has married him, but my family is telling that I have been abducted lodged an FIR. But it is also true that a cool person like me who uses democratic method of teaching can never show you the truth (our country is not secular, than can you tell me which country is secular), but probably Munna Bajrangi may show the truth. As per my definition you definitely true minority who dare to tell that our Government are impotent (a filthy language you have used, I am convinced that you do not have the courage to face the truth, but truth will remain truth) and do not believe in our constitution. I think this is the only country in world where a person can abuse the constitution and still live there. My sincere advise is why do not migrate to country of your choice, whose constitution suits and where the Government are not impotent. 3. I have read the report of Sachhar Committee. So far misusing the taxpayer%u2019s fund is concerned; you have given series of name. You wanted to justify that since these people are misusing the public fund illegally your community has right to do so that too of majority and quench the religious lust. 4. You are marshal race, you are the kingmaker, I think this is the probably the biggest joke though I can understand your mental state, as whenever I have discussed this matter with my Muslims friends / colleague (male and female both), they have agreed though with hesitation, reason may be that they were reasonably educated and I could respond immediately whatever doubt they had. But there are few bright aspects also as I felt that Muslims females are rather more logical or it may be that it is basic instincts of all the female which is nothing to do with any religion as this is a natural quality, a quality blessed by the nature. Otherwise you collect the countrywide and worldwide data, analyse the education level to fundamentalist, you would find your answer, though you have right to decide your life. In earlier posting I had referred few real examples, but from educated people. I had given one example of elderly man who was Bar-at-Law, father of senior colleague had told me at least 20 years that my community (Muslim) has become quite vulnerable because of few unscrupulous religious leaders (Mullah. Mufti, Maulvis) and political leaders and whole family ultimately shifted to London. I gave another example of Oil Company%u2019s Corporate Executive who had deep pain that he could not get residence in liberal society as he is Muslim and he does not want to bring up his children in that fundamentalist society. Yes there are hopes, if you are there I also have open minded friends, they at least show the determination that have already broken quite a few shackles and their wives not at all subscribe to such dirty opinions and off course they are not bringing up their children in fundamental environment where they get a tag and stigma of terrorism. Ray of hopes is there. I need not to read any literature be it of RSS or any other group and I have not read also, because I born and brought up in liberal cosmopolitan society. But so far I have not heard any organised Hindu terrorist group as such and so far the RSS is concerned though I have not read anything formally, but whatever impression I have got that they are hard-core patriot and preserver of Indian culture (what few people call it as Hindu culture) and they attack to the people and group who are anti-Indian, these unpatriotic people named them as Hindu Terrorist. But I would be interested if you substantiate your claim with sufficient proof. Since I am not fundamentalist and never rely on the speeches, quotes and their interpretations and misinterpretations of any Mullah / Maulvis, I would go though with open and broad mind. I would like to make it clear that culture is nothing to do with religion, if you call Indian culture as Hindu culture you have right to do but mostly Muslim culture is not Indian culture rather Arab culture, though in many parts of the country, the exceptions are there. I still do not know how the culture can change with religion; culture is always nurtured in accordance to the demography and climate. A culture of the Siberia can never be same as of Africa, though the people may have same religion. For example, in India Muslims (especially in Northern part of the country uses peculiar designed water pot, which is absolutely ridicules as these pots have relevance in Arab countries where there is scarcity of water is there but in India plenty of water is there. The adoption of Arab culture is symbol of illiteracy and foolishness. Once I saw a TV report of native place and house of our President APJ Abdul Kalam, which was quite normal and a typical South Indian rural house and it did not have any Arab impression, may be that is why we got a man as President of his calibre.
