US helps China to arm against USSR, USSR suplies to other countries. The fact today is that China has become a very rich nation with a modern sophisticated army but has not let go of its self-adopted imperialist ambitions in order to overcome the humiliation of enslavement by the Japanese. The US-Japan were allies in World War I, however in WWII Japan joined the side of the Axis. However after that Japan again became a US ally. So the Japanese have been traditional allies, and guess what the US did to them? Drop two atom bombs on them in WWII. We were allies of the USSR, guess what the USSR did to US in the 1962 war? It did nothing. It did not help India citing it did not want to be against a fellow communist nation - China. So in short, we have no friends. Therefore, it is of tremendous importance that India keep augmenting its military might like it has never done before and improve literacy and business opportunities available so finance such a military expansion. Put a cap on IIT - IIM graduates from going abroad and make them work for the supreme benefit of the nation. Increase pay packages of our scientists. India must stop complaining about an injust past, and look for a future when India becomes the benefitter. We must stop preaching Gandhian principles since the world doesnt care a camel's hoot for them. Instead, we must adopt increasinly belligerent stances militarily. Remember only the strong are repsected, the weak are only sympathized with!
RE:Stop fighting, no one's will help us Indians
by Dipak Bose on Jun 08, 2008 09:09 AM Permalink
Vishal Sharma: In 1962, China invaded India on the same day when USA was about to invade Cuba and a nuclear war between USa and USSR was imminent. China took advantage of that and withdrew immediately after that crisis over Cuba was over. USSR in November 6, had dondemned China and started sending MIG fighters to India. These could have arrived earlier but for the objection of Morarji Desai, who refused to allow enough fund for the Ministry of Defence and put the blame on Krishna Menon. USa-UK also did nothing in 1962, UK said openly to India to give up Kashmir first before expecting Western help. USSR has cut off its relationship with China in 1960, when China expelled all Soviet Consulates. In 1969, there was an war between China and the USSR. In 1979, China invaded Vietnam, a Soviet ally. USA dropped atom bomb on Japan because Japan was about to surrender to the USSR on 8 August 1945.
RE:Stop fighting, no one's will help us Indians
by Vladimir Stalin on Jun 10, 2008 01:05 PM Permalink
Dipak Bose, either you are half-informed or you are a card carrying commie Chinese stooge like many other of our Bengali brethren. In 1962, USSR simply washed its hands off the matter saying "whereas you (India) are our friend, China is our brother" and refused to interfere on our behalf. On the contrary it was the United States of America which sent plane-loads of arms and ammunition with planes landing every three minutes for ten full days at Calcutta's Dum Dum airport. Krishna Menon and Jawaharlal Nehru who had equipped our soldiers with .303 rifles and canvas shoes sent our brave soldiers as cannon fodder to face Chinese Automatic Kalashnikovs. Still our soldiers marched on and they etched many a brave history on the battlefront. Many years later, for the USSR coming around on our side etc. is another story and it has various other reasons behind it. For those who require facts it is available aplenty. But for those who are purblind even the lines on their palm become invisible.
AQ Khan is not a traitor for Pakistan but a Hero for Pakistan. He is our enemy, but he did what he should have done for his country. India would be lucky to have someone like him. I read his interview about 10 years ago; he said "Hindus worship cow, we eat it; of course Hindus and Muslims are enemies." I wish we should remember that always, rather than getting disoriented by the Indian journalists.
The Soviet Union gave enrichment plant to India after 1974. India can enrich uranium to the level so that nuclear explosion would be possible. The Soviet Union for the last 30 years, when USA was sleeping, did very advanced research and development and that was the reason it can develop Fast Breeder Reactors on a commerical scale, which USA has not yet done. The Soviet Union also gave the Fast Breeder Reactors, which can produce Plutonium, which can be used directly to produce nuclear weapons. That is the reason USA now wants India to sign 123 Treaty so that USA and IAEA can control the Fast Breeder Reactors, Enrichment plants and Reprocessing plants, so that India cannot make any nuclear weapons. Unfortunately Man Mohan, as an agent of USA, is trying to fool India. Pakistan got its nuclear weapons from China many years ago. China got it from Israel, Germany and France with the full approval of USA. Because USA wanted to set up China against the Soviet Union. CIA knew that Khan was getting (not stealing because it was approved at the highest level)nuclear weapons technology from Holland and China, but said nothing. Now go and sign 123 Treaty and be a slave of both Pakistan and China.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 11:03 AM Permalink
Bose, I am still waiting for your references about Russia supplying enrichment plants to India. What are your credible sources and references? If you don't have any, admit so.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 11:13 AM Permalink
Everything to India after 1974, regarding nuclear sector, came from the Soviet Union, as the West has imposed sanctions. India has not developed anything at all regarding nuclear, space, missiles etc. look at DRDO, has it developed anything at all? It is the more true about nuclear sector.
RE:RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 11:15 AM Permalink
Fast Breeder Reactor cannot work without any enrichment plant. FBR was supplied ( it is not yet commissioned) by the Soviet Union and Russia. Nothing at all came from any other sources since 1974.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 11:58 AM Permalink
However, Khan was wrong. India got all these supports from the Soviet union and russia legitimately in the same way China got it from Germany, France, Isreal; UK got it from USA; Isreal got it from USA; France got it from USA; South africa got it from Isreal, France and Germany, and so on. Pakistan certainly got it from China and Holland; it has not developed anything at all.
RE:RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 12:58 PM Permalink
"During Russian President Vladimir Putin's two-day trip to India, Russian and Indian nuclear officials signed a memorandum of understanding on the construction of four additional one-gigawatt nuclear reactors at the Koodankulam plant in Tamil Nadu, where Russia's Atomstroyexport is already building two units. The memo said that Russian contractors would construct still more reactors at unspecified new sites. Indian Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) official Baldev Raj, director of the Indira Gandhi Center for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Kalpakkam, told reporters on Jan. 31 that India will simultaneously build four 500 MW fast breeder reactors. Two of them will be based in Kalpakkam, where the prototype fast breeder reactor of 500 MW capacity will go critical in 2010. The 20 MW Fast Breeder Test Reactor, in operation for 20 years, is located there. The location of the other two 500 MW reactors has not been decided yet"
( This article appears in the February 9, 2007 issue of Executive Intelligence Review)
RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 08, 2008 09:13 AM Permalink
in 1993, Yeltsin gave the technology of Russian BN-600 fast breeder reactor to both China and India. BARC claimed that it has developed a new type of FBR with Thorium as fuel, but that technology was also developed earlier in the Soviet Union. However, all these were not smuggling, but legitimate open contracts.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 01:20 PM Permalink
Bose, now you are spinning and dancing around. Where is the reference and sources to show that Russia supplied India with enrichment plant to make nuclear grade fuel?
Yes, the russians are building the Kundankual nuclear plant and giving training for the Indian operators. But, the fast breeder reactor program is entirely an indigenous Indian program and was first built in Kalpakkam. Don't twist facts and propagate lies.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 03:08 PM Permalink
The Russian BN-600 fast breeder reactor uses uranium oxide fuel, some enriched to over 20%, and the sodium coolant delivers 550°C at little more than atmospheric pressure. Russia plans to reconfigure the BN-600 to burn the plutonium from its military stockpiles and extend its life beyond the 30 year design span.
India has started construction of a 500 MWe prototype fast breeder reactor (PFBR) at Kalpakkam fuelled with uranium-plutonium oxide (the reactor-grade Pu coming from its existing PHWRs)
Both Russian and Indian FBR have exactly same technology.
Noone said that Indian missiles came from Russia ( and Soviet Union), until by a slip of tongue Narasimha Rao in the Parliament said that it has started coming from the Soviet Union since 1989.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 12:22 PM Permalink
"Kudankulam is not a typical construction site. It has a second important mission as a university where Indian specialists are getting unique knowledge, mastering the construction of light-water reactors. Russian high-level professionals are the professors at this university"
RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 12:10 PM Permalink
Bose, you keep on parroting your ruskie song. Provide us credible references and sources to prove your claim that Russia supplied enrichment plants and fast breeder reactors. If can't, stop your lies and commie propaganda.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 09:53 AM Permalink
I agree with you that the US and CIA indirectly "helped" the pakis acquire nukes. The Khan thievery from Urenco in Holland was known to the CIA, but the US stopped the Danes from arresting xerox Khan.
On Russia providing India with enrichment plant, I think you must be mistaken. I have never read any reports that Russia provided this. What are your sources and reference?
RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 08, 2008 12:52 AM Permalink
Bose, stop the spin and beating around the bush.
You said two things in specific:
1) Russia supplied india with enrichment plant to process bomb grade concetrations.
2) Russia supplied India fast breeder technology.
You have not yet given us any credible references or sources to support your claims. All you have given on fast breeder is some vague similarities in the technology. You are stunningly silent on your claim on russia supplying enrichment plants to make bomb grade material.
RE:RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 08, 2008 09:22 AM Permalink
Without Enrichment plant, FBR cannot work, because it needs highly enriched Uranium or Uranium mixed with Plutonium ( has to be produced in an enrichment plant) or Uranium-Thorium mixed ( again have to be produced in enrichment plant) in the First cycle. In the second cycle FBR produces more than enough plutonium, which can be used as fuel and nuclear weapons. Thus, from the second and particularly from thirs cycle FBR is self-sifficient; that is the beauty of FBR as opposed to American style Uranium based plants which needs continuous uranium fuel. Russia gave India in 1993 ( and to China) exactly the same FBR it has used commercially( the first one in the world) in USSR along with Enrichment plants( otherwise it would not work). The design of the Kalapakkam FBR plant is exactly the same as the Russian BN-600 fast breeder reactor. Before that after 1974, USSR gave India the Heavy Water Plants as well, so that India became self sufficient.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 08, 2008 10:23 AM Permalink
Bose, You are still beatig around the bush. Show references that Russia supplied enrichment plant to enrich to bomb concentrations. That was your claim on your previous (original) post. You are not addressing that, but you are bein evasive.
Give references to show that India got fast breeder technology for our indigenous fast breeder program. The FBR program is indigenous and first developed in the kalpakkam pilot reactor. Then our people wanted to instal another one in Kundamkualam. There is no report that claims (except yourself) that Russia gave that technology to India.
If you can't give credible references and sources, admit that you either lied or made a mistake.
RE:Who is our friend?
by Dipak Bose on Jun 08, 2008 10:31 AM Permalink
I already gave references which said clearly about the similarity of designs and availability of those technology. India has not designed FBRs at all, all these came in 1993. Other plants came since 1974. Of course it is not possible for anyone to show you the photocopy of the contracts signed between India and the USSR.
RE:RE:RE:Who is our friend?
by Virgo on Jun 08, 2008 12:31 PM Permalink
What similrity? That the use of sodium for cooling. All the similarities that you talk about have been published information that have been available since the 1960\'s. In fact, the russian fast breeder uses exactly the same technology that the US fast breeder program used in the late 1950\'s and 1960\'s. The US shut it down as the uranium technology was a lot cheaper and because the FBR poses a lot of safety and environmental problem. So, using your logic we can say that India is using US technology as the Russian FBR technology still uses the 1950\'s US and French technologies.
India (IGARC) built the tiny 13MWe test reactor in Kalpakkam as a part/relult of its indigenous FBR development program. Based on the success of this program, IGARC is now building a 500MWe pilot reactor at Kalpakkam. If Russia gave all the technology, then what was the need to start with a mini test reactor and then taking the trouble to scaleup to the 500MWe reactor?
You have not given us any credible reference that points to Russia supplying the FBR technology to India. Neither have you given and supporting refeence to your first claim that Russia supplied enrichment plant for bomb grade.
RE:He is talking about traitors!
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 10:01 AM Permalink
My post above was cliiped.
I was quoting xerox Khan above. This man is the ultimate traitor to his country of birth and that of his ancestors. He is from Bihar. His ancestors were given sustenance by Bharat, but his species broke the country on the basis of religion and for sixty years have been trying to detroy the mother that gave birth to the. Our Muslims ask why they are not trutsted! They all supported partition, so now must understand that reaction was inevitable. However, while Indians hate the pakis and Islamic terrorists and anti-Indian commie and Muslim traitors, it must be noted that every Indian loves patriotic Indians such as Kalam.
RE:He is talking about traitors!
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 12:02 PM Permalink
AQ Khan is not a traitor for Pakistan but a Hero for Pakistan. He is our enemy, but he did what he should have done. India would be lucky to have someone like him. I read his interview about 10 years ago; he said "Hindus worship cows, we eat it; of course Hindus and Muslims are enemies." I wish we should remember that always, rather than getting disoriented by the Indian journalists.
RE:He is talking about traitors!
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 12:13 PM Permalink
You missed my point. Khan and his forefathers were given life and sustenance by the soil of mother India. He, his family, most pakis are traitors to their country of birth for breaking it. Also other muslims who took part in breaking their country are also traitors to their ancestral country.
Truth-AQ Khan style: Who postulated the Theory of Relativity? Einstein? No! It was AQ Khan's father, Einstein stole it from him. Who postulated the Quantum Theory? Max Planck? No! It was again AQ Khan's uncle. Max Planck stole it from him. Who gave the atom bomb to the US? The scientists from the Trinity project? No! It were AQ Khan's relative from the nukkad of Lahore. The Trinity scientists stole it from them. Who gave the US missile technology? The captured scientists of Hitlet's Nazi regime? No! It was AQ Khan's cousin, the missile scientists stole the technology from him. Who helped launch the first man to the moon? NASA? No, it was AQ Khan, NASA actually stole the technology from him. Who gave the equation for the Hydrogen Atom? Neils Bohr? No, no, it was AQ Khan's father, Neils Bohr stole it from him. Now how can one blame AQ Khan, if the world does not believe him?
Why did it take Pakistan 24 years' time to attempt detonating a nuclear device after India did it? Because AQ Khan was learning Chinese and North Korean. Why was he learning those languages? Because the nuclear-bomb-do-by-yourself-theft-kit was printed in Chinese with examples in North Korean!
Yes - AQ Khan was made a scapegoat by Musharaf. But the reason is not what AQ Khan is harking about. Actually, he's turning the tables directly on the west for this. The simple fact is that Pakistan got nuclear technology in stealth from China and ex-friends USA. Then they sold this to North Korea to obtain missile technology for self preservation. Now, when the cat was out of the bag, Gen Musharaf appointed AQ Khan as scapegoat - who's in turn trying to use the sympathy of public on him hatred of the West (USA) in Pakistan to try to turn the tables on the west. He'll succeed - not because he's right - but because he has the favourable conditions. This is the history of history - it's always on the side of the people in favourable circumstances - justice be damned.
This myth was slowly created after India conducted its tests in 1974 and has been played up by western media in order to control India's nuclear progress. There was only one nuclear test carried out 'IN' Pakistan in 1998 ( see not using the word 'BY' Pakistan) by the same countries which have been wanting India to sign NPT for 5o years. Khan was running a junk yard in Kahuta. No country has technology to enrich uranium to weapons grade by centrifuge. Western countries do not mind other Muslim countries trying to 'steal' or 'buy' this centrifuge technology from Pakistan because it leads them in wrong direction.
Indian scientists tried to develop centrifuge method and realized soon that it was almost impossible to enrich uranium beyond 20%.
So we have situation where USA with subtle help of China has created this myth of Pakistan having nukes. The problem is how to undo this myth with all the following objectives met (1. Denuclearize India; 2. Use Pakistan for strategic goals; 3. Use India against China)
Like all deceptions, this one ( that Pakistan has bombs) has too many unintended side-effects which have never been thought off. For example, what if China really gives one bomb to Pakistan. Another, India has been pushed into conducting nuclear tests and ramp up its own programme. Third, other Muslim countries have now joined race to get real nuclear technology claiming that if Pakistan can do it, so can they. The list goes on.
RE:Pakistan's nuclear capability is a myth- mother of all deceptions
by Desi on Jun 06, 2008 11:16 PM Permalink
What is the source of your story? Where can one read more about what you claim?
'Indian scientists tried to develop centrifuge method and realized soon that it was almost impossible to enrich uranium beyond 20%. '
RE:Pakistan's nuclear capability is a myth- mother of all deceptions
by sumit arya on Jun 06, 2008 10:34 PM Permalink
indian centrifuge technology is even advance than u.s thats one technology which india has to give to us in 123 deal . and moreover our top ppl like apj kalam and all more worried about using thorium because we have plenty of stock of that
RE:Pakistan's nuclear capability is a myth- mother of all deceptions
by Virgo on Jun 07, 2008 04:55 AM Permalink
Oh yes! You are a genious! By extention of your great analysis, no one in the world has nukes, not even the US, UK, China, Russia and France! All those countries have just vapor bombs! Everyone is lying about the bomb. What India exploded in 1974 and 1998 were the vapor bombs let out by our politicians after eating too much daal and chapatis!
By the way, carrying your analyis a little further, we can safely say that the Muslim hordes never invaded India and pakistan does not really exist except in imagination!
I think you should start writing to the National Enquirer!
RE:Pakistan's nuclear capability is a myth- mother of all deceptions
by Dipak Bose on Jun 07, 2008 09:18 AM Permalink
The Soviet Union gave enrichment plant to India after 1974. India can enrich uranium to the level so that nuclear explosion would be possible. The Soviet Union for the last 30 years, when USA was sleeping, did very advanced research and development and that was the reason it can develop Fast Breeder Reactors on a commerical scale, which USA has not yet done. The Soviet Union also gave the Fast Breeder Reactors, which can produce Plutonium, which can be used directly to produce nuclear weapons. That is the reason USA now wants India to sign 123 Treaty so that USA and IAEA can control the Fast Breeder Reactors, Enrichment plants and Reprocessing plants, so that India cannot make any nuclear weapons. Unfortunately Man Mohan, as an agent of USA, is trying to fool India.
RE:Pakistan's nuclear capability is a myth- mother of all deceptions
by ashish kapooria on Jun 06, 2008 10:38 PM Permalink
Dear Sameer,
A very astute observation, you obviously have analyzed the issue from every conceivable angle in a very brief prose, and yet it does'nt suffer at all from this brevity. Very nice.
