After years of negotiations, on January 20, 2004, Russia and India signed a deal for the Admiral Gorshkov, 12 single-seat MiG-29K 'Fulcrum-D' and 4 dual-seat MiG-29KUB, 6 Kamov Ka-27 and Ka-31 'Helix' helicopters, facilities and procedures for training pilots and technical staff, delivery of simulators, spare parts, and establishment maintenance on Indian Navy facilities.
The ship was free; India will pay the Russians ~US$800 million to upgrade it and an additional US$700 million on the aircraft and weapons systems. Upgrade plans involve stripping all the weaponry from the ship's foredeck to make way for a Short Take-Off But Assisted Recovery configuration. A 14.3 degree ski-jump on the bow and three arrestor wires on the angled deck will allow operation of MiG-29K 'Fulcrum' and Sea Harrier aircraft.
Due to a revised schedule and cost escalation by Russia, it is estimated that the ship will not join the Indian Navy as INS Vikramaditya before 2010.
While much of energy is spent in developing guided missiles, priorities should be identified on the immediate requirements of the armed forces, for indigenous technology. Even if it takes several years, efforts should be made to develop technology from the drawing board to build systems like aircraft carriers. This would not only ensure that we have the technology for some of the advanced equipment, but will also make sure that we do not have to depend on another country for those equipments.
India and Russia have been dealing for so many years and because of Russian support in arms supply India has won several wars. There is too much in stake by switching sides, at he same time Russia should not take advantage just because India's economy is booming
IAF deserves best and better defence equipments and required armoured vehicles. The Admiral Gorshkov is so old,then comes USS Kitty Hawk.Its like having a Old Girlfriend for your life.Now the question is-are you going to handle well ur old girl friend in your life or she is going to handle you better for your life with her experience.Goverment should think with defence authorities,The Equipments should help IAF in all the time in any scenario.It for National Security.India is made fated by this old politicans to buy exitinted technologys and defence equipments for so much of price.They should think of Utlizing them correctly and maintain them well for long term which is not going to be easy.
RE:Buying Old Defence System is not Wise.Their Technology may help only up to some extent.
by mahesh lakshminarayan on Feb 27, 2008 02:39 PM Permalink
but its always good to buy only from Russians as they are our old friends.
RE:Buying Old Defence System is not Wise.Their Technology may help only up to some extent.
by Ninja Kirgi on Feb 27, 2008 03:51 PM Permalink
Thats why they supported china when it attacked us in 1962. Such a good friend.
RE:Buying Old Defence System is not Wise.Their Technology may help only up to some extent.
by Mohan Kumar on Feb 27, 2008 05:32 PM Permalink
There are no friends in international affairs. Only self interests!!
RE:Buying Old Defence System is not Wise.Their Technology may help only up to some extent.
by Sanjay on Feb 27, 2008 03:18 PM Permalink
Mahesh, USS KH is older than AG. Still, AC Carrier structure if in good condition can be refitted with new technology.
give this contratc to tata or reliance for production of ship and aircraft tot other ,,,,i am sure ithin five years we can have world beaters ,,,,and also for export ,,,,why to spend on on old ships
RE:tata or reliance
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:15 PM Permalink
Tata or Reliance dont have a single world beating prouduct. Either you are ignorant or just grandiose fool. Tata cars are rated worst in UK and South Africa in latest ratings, much taunted tata nano itself was designed at IDEA agency Italy.
And you are asking them to build world beating warship of which they have zilch nada expertise ? Brain missing ??
RE:tata or reliance
by Hardik Mehta on Feb 27, 2008 02:25 PM Permalink
I think you seems to be wanton..Why Jaguar and Land Rover considering TATA bid? Why reliance ?Grass root refinery is the world's best refinery and 2nd largest in the world..Of course we dont have expertise but we have brain and passion..got it you freak..
RE:tata or reliance
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:27 PM Permalink
Idiot bidding means NOTHING. Even Saudi companies regularly bid for foreign companies. refinary all built with ge betchel US companies technology. Big so what ? India has BIG population. What is reliance ? crap mobile services and looting public ? What is earthshaking in this ?
RE:tata or reliance
by Sudeepta Chakraborty on Feb 27, 2008 02:54 PM Permalink
Okay Mr. Nandu, heard of a company called Bose, founded by Indian.. it is a leader.. not exactly earth shaking, but really shakes my home. Heard of Moni Bhowmik? Or one Mr. Bhatia of Hotmail fame?
RE:tata or reliance
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 03:01 PM Permalink
Good examples. Such are the people Indians should be , But i see them RARELY now especially in present times where everyone is running after 50k IT salaries in those sweat shops instead of innovation and invention. Why after 20 years of sucessful indian IT we are yet to see an Indian Operating system, An Indian browser, an Indian office suite, etc ?
It is pathetic to see a biotech major from IIT joining some bloody unrelated Lehman brothers as a financial associate ! What a waste of taxpayer money.
RE:tata or reliance
by Srinivasan Sriram on Feb 27, 2008 02:49 PM Permalink
China and America started ahead of us and we started 60 years back. We are doing good for a 60 year old country. You can't say the same thing after 15 years. Sick idiot like you just going by IQ numbers predicting Indian future is absolute stupidity, math knowledge of a Vegetable vendor in you street will do better calculation than a manager in Wal-Mart or any a/c in china. Instead of licking other countries ass try to respect Indian brain.
RE:tata or reliance
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:54 PM Permalink
you are the idiot, When a tool (calculator) why waste your brain in trivial calculations ? Do you walk or go by a car to travel 60 km ? This is precisely Indians are FAILURES to invent anything at all. Just keep do jhadu pocha for american companies, paid in peanuts, and then think you are an IT 'superpower' !
RE:tata or reliance
by Pat Thakur on Feb 27, 2008 02:20 PM Permalink
"With Ignoramuses, Does India Abound..." Remember this, dear Nandu. That's why India is at the end of the line in this World.
RE:tata or reliance
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:23 PM Permalink
Indians as a race are stupid with IQ of only 85 for its populace, 105 for China, 100 for Europe.
IITians make up less than 0.001% of Indian population and even they have not invented ANYTHING EARTHSHAKING. They are just overhyped pampered fat cats.
Tell me in one EARTHSHAKING life changing invention came out of India in the last 15 years ?
Now I hope you wont say jhadu pocha work that indian IT 'majors' do for western companies who are real inventors as earthshaking !
RE:tata or reliance
by Naveen on Feb 27, 2008 02:34 PM Permalink
That is because The Indian government, the politicians are anot giving enough funding to science. If the government gives enough funds in science Indian scientists will beat the world. If China is so intelligent as you say, why are major western IT companies not going to china? Why are they coming to India? After all China is also Cheap. And let us not forget that citibank is now depending on vikram pandit an Indian, Pepsi on Indra nooyi, vodafone on arun sarin. Dont forget that lots of facultyin US universities are Indian. That an Indian srikanth datar was considered for HARVARD dean. Can you name one Chinese who has achieved as much? Dont forget Indias indigenous defence systems. its missiles, nuclear weapons all of them built by Indian brains. DONT TAKE NEGATIVE VIEW PLEASE. BE PROUD YOU ARE INDIAN.
RE:RE:tata or reliance
by Naveen on Feb 27, 2008 02:36 PM Permalink
AND one more thing, recently US presidential candidate barrack obama called for making the american educational system similar to India. What do you say to that?
RE:RE:tata or reliance
by Sudeepta Chakraborty on Feb 27, 2008 03:10 PM Permalink
Well never knew Europe is a country:-)
Where did you get this data? As per some statistical analysis the mean IQ is 81 for India, 83 for Afghanistan, 100 for Chinese.. the falacy is huge, whenever they couldn't come with a figure they have averaged on the neighbouring country, so Iran is 84 and India is 81, hence Afghanistan's is 83...they have started with an assumption and factored out by ethnicity...and averaging out by neighbourhoods. They haven't veen started out with a huge population, the sample sizes were something like 150 americans of mixed ethnicity...No wonder they should have measured your IQ in finding the Indian IQ.
RE:tata or reliance
by prachi gupta on Feb 27, 2008 02:40 PM Permalink
You seem to be ignoring the fact that many Indians are working in those western companies which are making that EARTHSHAKING products. Its a global village now and you can't say that Indians are not at all involved in those inventions. You need to seriously update your knowledge about the happenings in India.
RE:what r we doing
by Kavita rag on Feb 27, 2008 02:11 PM Permalink
this is to be built by our engineers who prefers to go work for US(through Indian SW companies) than for India. Unless these traitors are booked and kicked in the head we will not improve our military technology.
RE:what r we doing
by Rahul on Feb 27, 2008 02:25 PM Permalink
WHAT????? You seem to be some frustrated moron. U mean to say if someone works for an MNC he becomes a traitor? Can Govt of India even imagine to give these number of jobs and with these salaries to Indians. if these MNCs were not there India would have been Sudan now. You seem to be either still in school or mentally retarded or yeah maybe a Communist
RE:what r we doing
by Vinayak Deshpande on Feb 27, 2008 02:26 PM Permalink
kavita - you call them traitors. But why they have to do this? If i see dont get a admission to IT in spite 99.99% and someone with 35% just because of his cast - able to do so. what you will do? The Reservation system here, the Red Tapeism here - made them decide on moving on. Its like you are moving to another city for a job - in the shrinking world. And remember India enjoy huge pile of forein exchange due to them and also voulnatary funding to lot of humanitarian projects too.
RE:RE:what r we doing
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:06 PM Permalink
Politicians are also WE. We dont import politicians from Germany do we ? Indian IT companies are flooded with liquid cash of $30 billion due to massive cost arbitage, Did they come up with anything earth shaking in IT ? Any new OS? Any new IP protocol ? Any new hardware technology ? ANYTHING ? Definately it is WE who are stupid.
Japan built heaviest warship way bach in world war era 1940s and still holds records to this day. We are good at reinventing and copying already existing techonologies not original work.
RE:what r we doing
by auditor:p on Feb 27, 2008 02:30 PM Permalink
mr. nandu, what you suggest is true, alas ! but, we are not stupid. only, we are not as inventive as the u.s., the u.s. mindset is different, they invent, forget the last invention, & invent something new. this trend carries on like a cycle. and for india's technology progress - it's about time someone yells 'the king is not wearing any clothes'
RE:RE:what r we doing
by Sudeepta Chakraborty on Feb 27, 2008 02:40 PM Permalink
Nandu, talking about Nobels, how many from Half the european, most of the Asian, and almost all of the African countries have won Nobel. So all these people are stupid?? What a foolish idea.
RE:what r we doing
by Naveen on Feb 27, 2008 02:13 PM Permalink
I agree with you NAndu. But rather than saying we are stupid. I would say we would simply like to blindly copy the west. After all it is Indians who are the real brain behind NASA, Microsoft and google.
RE:RE:what r we doing
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:19 PM Permalink
Where did you get that. None of these companies were founded by Indians. In Nasa only 3% of employees are Asians, and that included Indians, paltry to say the least. Same story is repeated elsewhere. See US patent holders, Indians here and there. See US nobel prize winners 300 of them, only 2 Indians. dont become grandiose but check facts and dont trust those stupid chain emails .... u know 33% of Nasa are Indians blah blah blah crap. Of US fortune 500 companies only one has an Indian co-founder, again paltry. Indians are overrated. Imagine this, If Indians were that good, all new techonologies would have been created by Indians having sitting on cash of $30 billion for the last 10 years. Did they create anything ?
RE:what r we doing
by Sudeepta Chakraborty on Feb 27, 2008 02:32 PM Permalink
Mr. Nandu, we do invent stuff, there are many Indians who are working on the cutting edge of technology. Unfortunately they prefer to work for US and European agencies where the big bucks are. So its people like you who either know little or try to belittle others are stupid, not the general Indian.
RE:what r we doing
by Srinivasan Sriram on Feb 27, 2008 02:52 PM Permalink
Yes sir , we accept we are stupid becuase of your dull stupid brain will bring down one billion bright brains in india for sure.
RE:RE:what r we doing
by kalyan y on Feb 27, 2008 02:13 PM Permalink
tht was for nandu by the way....he's got some guts for saying..."indians are stupid"
RE:what r we doing
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:21 PM Permalink
Indians as a race are stupid with IQ of only 85 for its populace, 105 for China, 100 for Europe.
IITians make up less than 0.001% of Indian population and even they have not invented ANYTHING EARTHSHAKING. They are just overhyped pampered fat cats.
RE:RE:what r we doing
by Vinayak Deshpande on Feb 27, 2008 02:28 PM Permalink
are you someone who were always failure in life? i see frustration everywhere in all your posts. OR are you a pakistaani?
RE:what r we doing
by Sudeepta Chakraborty on Feb 27, 2008 04:04 PM Permalink
Well never knew Europe is a country:-)
Where did you get this data? As per some statistical analysis the mean IQ is 81 for India, 83 for Afghanistan, 100 for Chinese.. the falacy is huge, whenever they couldn't come with a figure they have averaged on the neighbouring country, so Iran is 84 and India is 81, hence Afghanistan's is 83...they have started with an assumption and factored out by ethnicity...and averaging out by neighbourhoods. They haven't veen started out with a huge population, the sample sizes were something like 150 americans of mixed ethnicity...No wonder they should have measured your IQ in finding the Indian IQ.
RE:what r we doing
by Nandu on Feb 27, 2008 02:31 PM Permalink
I am frustrated to see biotech majors from IIT joining some bloody white skin company on MY TAXPAYER MONEY and on top of that having a HOT HEAD looking down to general populace.
RE:RE:what r we doing
by auditor:p on Feb 27, 2008 02:37 PM Permalink
mr. nandu, what you suggest is true, alas ! but, we are not stupid. only, we are not as inventive as the u.s., the u.s. mindset is different, they invent, forget the last invention, & invent something new. this trend carries on like a cycle. and for india's technology progress - it's about time someone yells 'the king is not wearing any clothes' there is not a single 'made in india' popular worldwide. e.g. levis - u.s.a, psp - japan, bmw - germany, ferrari - italy, nokia - scandinavia,...
RE:RE:what r we doing
by kalyan y on Feb 27, 2008 02:28 PM Permalink
if india ever fails in achieving its goals...its coz of ppl like u who dont stick to their country,not have faith n not contribute nything for progress.
RE:what r we doing
by mahesh lakshminarayan on Feb 27, 2008 02:36 PM Permalink
we are already making our own,It will come in 2010.Every five year once we produce 1 ship and given to navy.We never produced an Aircraft Carrier coz it takes long time.But according to Goverment we will have self created Aircraft carrier - 1 ship on 2015.
Why is india going for aircraft carriers which are soon to be decommisioned?? Instead of wasting billions of dollars on them, India should go for advanced technology
RE:buying scrap
by MANISH on Feb 27, 2008 04:48 PM Permalink
Dear Nand Kumar,
I would like to clarify you that we are just pruchasing what is stop gap arrangement India has capacity to built its own AC and they are under construction.
We use to buy these Ships overseas because such a ship needs atleat 7-10 years to built nad commisioned to the navy.
Now with AG we are reducing the time for aquisition from the indegineous manufacturing. We have choosed the bnest from the avialable options. AG deal is not poor infact we are buying a new AC with the 1/3rd price from the existing market. By the time AG reiers we will be having at least two of our indegineous manufactured warships.
RE:buying scrap
by Pat Thakur on Feb 27, 2008 02:26 PM Permalink
Well, it is not the case only with War Machines but with Leadership as well. India always opts for Dud, Dying & Defunct Leaders. They are fit to be Decommissioned but enjoy a lease of extended lives with the blessings of Greedy Honchos & Foolish Voters.
It is beyond imagination that a fleet which is short of aircraft career is now having the barerage of the same.
The US move may be somthing that Indian have initiated for liplock of Russians who are demanding more for Goshkorav carrier.
The US move is almost the rejected one because the aircraft which will operate from the carrier will be the same version that Indian Air force may order i.e. F-18 or the MiG-29 or the version of the same. The main problem is of Inventory management. If India choose Russian carrier than it is definately operate MiG-29 form the deck. It will support the MMRCA contract for choosing the MiG-35 by IAF sothat the maintanenece of inventory will be on the easier side as the twin services are following the same manufacturer.
Moreover if India choose the Kitty Hawk it will just be a burden on overall Indian agencies from defence to the finance and the foreign Ministry.
It is the only reason that the Russian has opened the mouth for Money. as we go deep into the problem we also have to understand the real problem from the russian side what is there in carrier and what is there to be replaced.
If we put more money into the carrier with better equipment and technology it is better for our forces
RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by Rahul on Feb 27, 2008 02:27 PM Permalink
It is not the same old Russia now. It is increasingly arrogant & racist. Millions of Indians live peacefully in US. America needs India. Moreover Russian equipment is havy fuel guzzler.
RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by mahesh lakshminarayan on Feb 27, 2008 02:41 PM Permalink
if u think in that way Dr. u will end up with steering the ship in high seas and drowing it during war time.i hope u are only intrested in a news like that.Same with Kitty and Cat.
RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by ASHOK on Feb 27, 2008 02:09 PM Permalink
Like Kitty hawk Admiral Gorskov(AG) is age old Dynasour, To buy AG India paid 1.5 Billion $ to Russia , 4 years ago. This saved Russian Navy docyard from closing down.
Now when Russian economy has strenghthened, they are bullying India and demanding addotional 1.2 Billion $ to hand over AG.
That too after another 3 to 4 years.
India should go for WarShip building in partnership with Indian Private sector. This will give a lot of jobs and help raise standard of living within India.
Both Russia and US should be engaged for giving Naval armaments to be fitted on those Made in India ships. Private sector
RE:RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by MANISH on Feb 27, 2008 05:02 PM Permalink
Dear Ashok,
I would like to Inform you that the AC AG is not so old, it is bit old but after refitting it will be as good as new ships.
During the crisis of economy it was not economically feaseable for Russia to opreat all the AC in the fleet, they some how have to discard some of the ship as they are underperforming. As one AC almost crunches 25% of resources of Navy of the size of Indian Navy. So there was no option for Russian Navy to discard this AC. But when Russian offered the Ship free of cost and want to sale Latest MiG-29 which is better then the existing Su-30MKI with Indian Air Force, this fact has pushed the Indian Navy to go for the deal.
But during the refit it may be one of the reason that the parts which must be replaced may not be identified at that time but during the refit it was understood that these changes are must and may damage the opreations of AC, the further investment may in our favour afterall we are purchasing a weapon platform and any shortfdall may not be accepted and what the same the russian are saying in our favour. If the AC underperform after the takeover it will blame Russian and we will be pushing ball in eachother court, so it is better to resolve the issue with mutual understanding.
RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by shashank mishra on Feb 27, 2008 02:04 PM Permalink
I second you Dr. Susana. US is nt a frnd of India..US loves only money....on tht other hand Russians are trusted frnds...... we shud nt betray thm..
RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by Rahul on Feb 27, 2008 02:27 PM Permalink
WOW that is why they asked for USD 1.4 billion more. Joker communist go and wash yoru face
RE:SAY NO TO US IMPERIALISM- MIG 29 AND GROSNOV BEST
by MANISH on Feb 27, 2008 04:35 PM Permalink
Dear Rahul,
We have to look into the matter What actuallyn Russian are demanding for, they are demanding for the replacement to be done. Under few International Protocol a more work is needed to be done and for that Russian are demanding more. In Last four year this problem may not apperared b8ut during the refit russians faced some more things that too need a repair and for they are demanding more. Tommorrow if the Aircraft carrier underperform if the rectification is not done properly or it sinks after 3-4 year then only we Indian understand that Why Russians are demanding more.
