RE:hitler was by himself; today's chinese rulers are many hitlers.
by Sincere Citizen on May 02, 2008 11:02 AM Permalink
You write the truth. These people are ruthless and out to destroy everyone else in the world.
Iam surprised that the Chinese people are supporting this fascist government, but if they are thats what they deserve.
This is the modus operandi followed by all invaders in history and today the Chinese are using it against others.
Hitler was better because at least he did not try and hide his agenda he did it openly these guys are liars and cheats. Oh and Hitler hated communists.
RE:May Day greetings to all the working class people out there. Let us unite to throw out this governement and bring in the CPM and make India a first rate country like China.
by Bharat Engineer on May 01, 2008 12:44 PM Permalink
No point canvassing here. People on this forum either don't stay in India or don't vote.
The videos have exposed china. The comments posted by chinese will expose even more chinese mentality and what they think about indians, tibetans and west.
You guys are blaming the wrong ppl. Nehru is the one who deserted Dalai Lama and Tibet. In his desire to win the Nobel Prize the MF sold out Kashmir and Tibet. And ultimately India, for which we and our Grandchildren will have to pay the price. No problem can be solved by violence-see the world over--only dialogue and calm can solve ANY problem small or big.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 01, 2008 11:12 PM Permalink
nehru's sins are far deeper. His footprint can be seen in each one of India's problems. The man was an unmitigated disaster for India.
Through his pathetic leadership and politicking he turned Indian Army, a fine force in 1947 into an average force by 1962. He apointed his relative a third rate crony called Kaul, someone who had never seen action as COAS with disasterous results.
nehru is responsible for each and every one of India's problems - linguistic fanaticism, islamist fanaticism (nehru refused to amend muslim personal law), povery (nehru's socialism was nothing but cronyism and the infamous permit control raj), anti democratic dynasty poltics are among some of the ills plaguing India for which nehru is solely responsible. His chargesheet of course is much longer. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg.
Perhaps it is not a coincidence that nehru rhymes with nero.
RE:RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 04, 2008 01:20 AM Permalink
"Perhaps it is not a coincidence that nehru rhymes with nero." -- Is it coincidence that your name rhymes with 'barasingha'! may be of the Mriga Marichi variety!!
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 02, 2008 05:23 AM Permalink
To preserve Muslim personal law and Hindu personal law is not being fanatic, he just wanted to give more time for societal evolution. The Constitution in its directive principle provides for Uniform Civil code. Nehru did not want linguistic reorganisation. Independent India had to suffer great food shortage but soon thereafter thanks to good governance, India recovered and was able to avoid famines and famines death, the way it frequently was in British era.
These are deep issues requiring great intellectual deliberation before we can conclude justly. But I greatly appreciate your love for India and respect the intensity of your emotions. Best wishes to you.
RE:RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 02, 2008 08:07 AM Permalink
Sorry. Nehru selectively messed with Hindu Personal law, while refusing to change islamic law condemning millions of muslims and women to the tyranny of shariah.
actions speak louder than words. NEHRU INDEED CARRIED OUT LINGUISTIC VIVISECTION TO FURTHER HIS SELFISH AGENDA AND CUT DOWN TO SIZE POTENTIAL CLAIMANTS TO LEADERSHIP. (MADRAS PRESIDENCY WAS REORGANISED TO CUT DOWN C RAJAGOPALACHARI DOWN TO SIZE, BOMBAY PRESIDENCY REORGANIZED TO CUT MORARJI BHAI AND YASHWANTRAO CHAVAN DOWN).
India was helped by western (american aid) for its grain shortage not anything great that nehru did. nehru had a remarkable opportunity to fix age old problems of India (primarily divisiveness). neru exacerbated the differences and was a failure in most areas where he tried to deliver results.
There is a vested interest group at work (neru foundation, dynastywallahs et. al.) that seek to whitewash neru's monumental failures and project him as a great leader which he was not in any sense of the term.
Deliberation has been done on nehru and even raj mohan gandhi (and many of our insightful people) who is sympathetic to neru conclude that Gandhi made a grievous mistake by overruling the demcratic selection of Sardar Patel and making this third rate self serving charlatan, neru, India's first PM.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 02, 2008 05:34 PM Permalink
I have been reading Rajmohan Gandhi for over 20 years, and is no reference for me atleast. A goody goody thinker, but not of adequate depth in analysis! Wish you had better references to base your perceptions. Anyway, I tried!
RE:RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 05, 2008 11:59 AM Permalink
Ramesh
Let us have a sense of proportion. Let us not fool ourselves and measure people by their actions and the results.
1. There were many many people that sacrificed much more for the country.
2. Your facts are wrong. Nehru spent ~9 years in jail. That too as a political prisoner with significant comforts, not the kaala paani kind faced by some other leaders.
3. Others spent more time. And incarceration never provided anyone the right to misrule foisting dynastic anti democratic politics et. al.
4. neru was an anti-Hindu (It is for nothing that Sardar patel called him in 1940s the only nationalist muslim in India). His contempt for Hinduism gets reflected in so many of his actions such as opposition to Somnath temple construction.
4. nehru's contempt for poor could be seen in the lavish and emperor like life style that he chose for himself, while mouthing empty socialist slogans. His totalitarian bent of mind took him to communist collectivist approachs.
nehru does not deserve to be named with the heros whose names you have cited - Patel, Rajaji, et. al.
neru remains the arch villain responsible for most of the ills plaguing India today.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 03, 2008 02:35 PM Permalink
Rajmohan was most sympathetic to neru. (perhaps subconsciously he was defending nehru for Gandhi's role in making neru the first PM). You have to read Rajmohan, for the facts he presents.
I had shared other references which are more damning on neru's multiple failures.
If you want to keep continuing ur wrong perception of neru, u r welcome to do so. But base it on facts rather than on empty assertions.
neru unfortunately was the disaster that plagued India during her most formative years post independence.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 03, 2008 10:31 PM Permalink
Singha, Nehru was born with a silver spoon, he could have most luxurious life, instead he chose the path of emancipating India. His struggle included spent 17 years in British jails, thinking how to better India. He did not compromise politically, wrote fascinating books about India, was above caste and communal feelings, and possessed genuine intellectual integrity. Unlike many English educated Indians he did not have contempt for masses, but genuine love for the toiling people and this perhaps drove him leftwards. India was blessed with stalwarts like Gandhi, Patel, Subhas, Nehru, Ambedkar, Rajaji.. the list is a long one and let us accept their strengths with pride, and receive their failures with grace.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 01, 2008 04:46 AM Permalink
Tibet was a military takeover by Red Army. There was no way India could militarily defend it. India's first priority was to achieve national consolidation in post-parition era. One of the responses was linguistic splitting of the state to reinforce cultural identities over religious ones. Then there was severe neo-colonial pressures via Pakistan. So naturally a wise PM would opt for negotiated peace while it focussed on obtaining nuclear technology and eronautics and aviation technology which was done by him. Above all he grasped the immeasurable strength of rule of law in civil democarcy. Pray, show some real discernment and accord genuine understanding of our real and many stalwarts, of which Nehru was one. We diminish ourselves by not respecting our own people and our leaders.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 01, 2008 11:07 PM Permalink
Ramesh
What u have written is arrant nonsense and contains many half lies.
Dar commission had explicitly ruled out linguistic states. The Potti Sri Ramulu nonsense happened much later and after Chinese occupation of Tibet.
If Patel had remained alive, (a) Congressmen would not have killed Potti (b) Linguistic states wud not have materialised.
Sardar too had written a very accurate description of china and a blueprint for dealing with them, which nehru foolishly ignored resulting in the subsequent disasters in Tibet and in 1962.
Nerhu indeed goofed. He looked at the west unnecessarily as enemy.
Nehru delayed India's nuclear program.
Contrary to what people believe IITs/IITs were an outcome of the initiative in 1946 by Sir Jogendra Singh, member of the Viceroy's Executive Council. nehru (nero) had nothing to do with this.
nehru is responsible for each and every one of India's problems - linguistic fanaticism, islamist fanaticism (nehru refused to amend muslim personal law), povery (nehru's socialism was nothing but cronyism and the infamous permit control raj).
We have to speak the truth. Not glorify vainglorious men that brought India nothing but disaster.
Thanks for your response. The fact is that Nehru was against linguistic reogranisation! States Reorganization Act of 1956 was a major post-parition change impacting national identity. It was never claimed to be a pre-Tibet occupation event. Yes, Sardar Patel had much better and realistic grasp of Chinese intent, while Nehru would often get carried away in realm of abstraction.
Nehru had deep understanding and greate regard for western nations and their institutions. Suggest you read how viewed USA in this speech to Senate (URL below)
His efforts contributed greatly to obtain India access to Nuclear and other advanced technologies. On economic policy debates the turn towards free market economy has been quite difficult, and you are justified in putting some of the blame on Nehru. But the fact is he believed in mixed-economy model, and would have been apalled by how the economy took a sharp turn left by restrictive capacity licenses, bank nationalisation, 90 percent income tax etc..
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 02, 2008 07:49 AM Permalink
Nehru was against state reorg! Cmon.
For political expediency he encouraged it (In divide and rule - nehru exceeded the brits by a wide margin). The Madras Presidency was headed by C Rajagoplachari, Free India's first Governor General. Splitting Madras Presidency was nehruvian strategem to cut C R down to size since he was a eminent leader post Patel's demise. He played the same game in Bombay presidency where the real targets were Morarji Bhai and Yashwantrao Chavan.
On nehru's econonomic blunders, the effects of which were obvious even in 1950s read out old editions of Swarajya and what JRD advised to Nerhu. The lamentation of erudite people could not move nehru to pragmatic approach and he continued with his quixotic ways. His mixed economy model was nothing but command and control communist approach resulting in cronyism and perpetuation of poverty for two full generations.
With India's industrial infratructure in 1940s it is a shame that china over took us in nuclear and space technologies.
neru's sins go far and deep. pls do read out insider (PVN) on what he has written on neru's socialist pattern (Since PVN was a dynastywallah and active politician, you have to read between the lines to make sense of how according to PVN neruivan congress socialism conned India).
Even better sources will be Frank Moraes and Bhagwan Das, editors of Indian Express and Hindustan Times during the neruvian times. Bhagwan das's biography is outstanding in this respect.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 04, 2008 01:32 AM Permalink
Nehru was against state reorg! Cmon. -------------------- You are negating my history teacher! Anyway this is what internet search showed up. Personally am glad that linguistic reorganisation really took place. ........................................
He dubbed the demand for a linguistic reorganisation of States as `parochial', saying, "What is infinitely more important is what happens on either side of the boundary, and what happens within the state". He also stood for "unfettered growth" of all Indian languages. A passionate advocate of scientific spirit, he hardly missed any inaugural session of the Indian Science Congress. --- NEHRU'S INDIA %u2014 Select Speeches: Mushirul Hasan
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Singha on May 05, 2008 12:10 PM Permalink
Ramesh
I dont know why u r so confused. You judge leaders by their actions not what they say.
You will be distorting history and facts, if you say nehru did not carry out linguistic vivisection.
You may be glad linguistic reorg happened. Let us look at its effects.
In madurai, property of kannada actors are targetted, in bangalore tamil movies get stopped from getting screened, there is violence - destruction of public property on a massive scale, vituperative politicans like raj thakeray (with the silent acquisence of congress) are questioning the rights of hindi speakers to live in mumbai and u say "it was good".
Before state reorg, did tamils and kanndigas ever face off on language issue, or did kannadigas and marathis fight in belgaum?
Brits past masters in divide and rule did not go to the extent of leveraging language divisiveness.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 04, 2008 01:14 AM Permalink
Indian destiny has been shaped a complex array of forces. Any view as if few personalities shaped it would be a simplification. Congress movement was not the only major force, there were Muslim League, Communists, Socialists(including Lohiaites) , and Hindu nationalists. Besides, there were number of regional fissiparous movements. Nehru accorded legitimate political space to each one of this and this was perhaps his greatest achievement. He even joked to Prez Kennedy about ABV being the future Prime Minister!
One the economic debates raging in India, Bombay plan on one side and the Soviet model on the other end; Nehru like many others discerning men knew that the outcome of the debate could be settled only in future, therefore option for both had to kept open. The prevailing wisdom therefore wisely opted for mixed-economy mode with emphasis on dams, irrigation, institutional support to provide scientific inputs to agriculture, and commanding heights for economic planning where nascent private sector could not make big-scale investment like Steel, Heavy machinery, heavy electrical and new technologies particularly in defence sectors. Let us not dump India%u2019s failure on one man!
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 01, 2008 05:21 PM Permalink
Govt of Free Tibet is on Indian soil. We have a policy of engagement with China. But China not only occupies Tibet, also Indian territories. The doctrine of 'reality recognition' accepts presently Tibet is autonomous part of China. This legal artifice would not close door to free Tibet, nor to regain Indian territories.
RE:RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 01, 2008 05:23 PM Permalink
Also, we need to understand that India has no quarrels with Chinese people, only with their state policy on Tibet and occupation of Indian territories. This component of distrust need not oveeride other aspects of mutual trust, hence the policy of engagement.
RE:INDIA TIBET CHINA
by Ramesh Nittoor on May 02, 2008 05:56 AM Permalink
Your anger would be more useful against the Red Army which did the takeover. Retain it!
everest is highest peak in the world which is mounted sportingly by a number of persons mixing sports like olympics and politicising the issues at this juncture is wrong which should be avoided in benefits of whole humanity
