India has all the nuclear technology , it needs What India needs and what do not have much of is raw nuclear fuel. I do not see the big advantage for India to "buy" this fuel from NSG . OR "buy" Oil from open market also something they import 70% . Either way India remains dependent on energy from other countries or is not energy independent. Energy independence is what this current govt. was selling the deal as to people. When it will not make them energy independent. Why should they "cap" and "roll back" when they are old and expire (provided they usable now which i doubt and need further testing) the weapons. When China is a growing threat that US , UK , Russia etc are ALL improving their current huge stock piles . There is nothing in the deal for India besides a %u201Catta boy%u201D pat on the back from the %u201Cwest%u201D . Only Fools will go for that .
Though BJPs understanding what is India what is being indian is different from my idea, i would appeal to BJP to consider the issue on its merit. I do not think a person (an Indian ) need to be a left of some sort to oppose this deal.Let us first come out of seeing this issue through the eyes of Pakistan and chaina.Pakistan regime will be unhappy if this deal is clinched.Because with the deal India will dethrone Pak as the Prime concubine of US in the area and occupy its bed even when it is still warm. Chinas apprehensions are understandable because the only out come of the deal is India becoming the henchman of US in Asia. What benefit India is getting? We are not getting any technology from US as their technology in the areas like reprocessing are non existant for more than 30 Years. They donot have any technology for Fast Breeder reactors or Thorium based developments-It is not in their agenda at all-They are not ready to allow reprocessing of used Uranium- Let the BJP leaders be "National" in their approach and see.If not they will be further marginalised. P.K.Rajan
RE:Let BJP be pragmatic
by albert fernandes on Oct 17, 2007 11:37 AM Permalink
Not true my friend. They do not have fast breeder technology and we dont need it from them. What we need is Uranium to sustain the thorium cycle. We have practically none. Even Australia wont give us uranium without that deal. Our fast breeder is still only on paper and only in phase 2. We have not even reached the final phase and we already talk as if we have mastered it.
They have allowed reprocessing and a dedicated reprocessing plant will be set up for it. Let there be no doubt, we will reprocess the fuel, and believe me - everyone will be reprocessing nuclear fuel and beg India to do so when oil crosses 100$ a barrel.
Let us be realistic, our nuclear infrastructure and capacity to expand is woefully weak. We are lucky to have had good scientists who produced outstanding results with very little resources. But if dont rapidly increase power generation by huge amounts, our economic development will quickly crumble.
RE:Let BJP be pragmatic
by Rajan on Oct 20, 2007 04:15 PM Permalink
Dear Fernandes, Indias 3 stage nuclear programme is great vision and appropriate to Indian requirement and situation. As per this programme,We have a prototype Fast Breeder reactor and the first commericial Fast Breeder reactor is on the anvil.Yes our Fast Breeder Reactor is not "On Paper" and No one is any where near to this level. We need to reprocess the 1 st stage spent fuel.We are not lagging behind any one in this technology. We have our own Heavy water Plants and despite all kinds of sanctions they are producing for a long time now.(So don't have any illussion of "Modern" technology coming out of Uncle sams hat. True we need Uranium but the cost which we can pay is not 123.Let Manmohan Sigh,Kapil Sibal & Co use all their energy, sophistry,double talk (i mean diplomacy) etc in finding an out of box way to secure Uranium Supply instead of urging India to become a neighbourhood henchman of US. Pls do not bring the straw men of Enery requirement,importance of nuclear power etc etc.Save it to tell to people who question the requirement of nuclear power.
Advani has again said today that the deal is a bad one. It is just realpolitick to push Congress into a corner? We cannot understand these political animals. But if we are relying on leaders to get together to save the nuclear deal and the country, then I guess it is time for them to shut their loud mouths up and quietly come up with a plan.
I am new to this discussion board. I see more than a hundred messages posted here often with multiple responses. Is this an average discussion and where does this article figure in the interest it has generated. Probably a veteran here can answer my questions. Thanks.
If BJP really wants to be the 'Bharat First' party that it claims to be then it shall extend an offer to work with the Congress govt in the interest of the nation. Yes, BJP should have been ruling party today and not Congress, yes MMS/Sonia should have consulted BJP while negotiating the deal. But then it is also BJP's chance to let bygones be bygones for Bharat's sake. Lets face it, if India misses this chance for back door entry to the big league then it can pretty much kiss any such entry goodbye for the next 20-30 years. Its likely that the next US president would be a democrat who would be much less inclined to complete this deal in its present form let alone agreeing to any more benefits as BJP claims it would negotiate if it comes back to power.
BJP now has the choice of either remaining as the party that would rather wallow in self-pity, bitterness and factionalism, or come to its rescue in its hour of needs and save it from the clutches of Left bullies and their cowardly Congress collaborators. BJP has little to lose by offering cooperation to the govt; OTH, BJP has much to gain in the form of nation%u2019s goodwill (who knows it may even pay rich electoral dividends as the %u2018party with a difference%u2019 in the next election). And if Congress spurns BJP%u2019s offer of help then at least the country would know which party stands where while protecting India%u2019s interests. As the architect of Pokhran II its only fitting that BJP now helps Bharat enter backdoor to the NPT club.
RE:An appeal to BJP
by on Oct 17, 2007 09:58 AM Permalink
I don%u2019t understand the argument by Udhay Bhaskar as well as Jit Dutta except that they support the BJP Brand of Politics. First they failed discuss the merit of the issue. Did Bush-Mamohan agreement in June 2005 bring anything good for India? India should separate its nuclear facilities for civilian purpose and furnish its details to US. Is it acceptable to us? India should be the strategic partners where India should support US's war on Iraq or its proposed military strike against Iran. Is it acceptable to us? India should have military cooperation with US by purchasing huge quantities of military hardware from US at their terms. Is it acceptable to us? There is no mentioning of any reciprocity from US side. Is it acceptable to us? Coming to the present 123 agreement- Are we going to accept that our three stage nuclear energy program to exploit the huge Thorium reserve in the country be desecrated? Are we accepting that we should get permission from US senate every time we need to reprocess the spent fuel? Are we accepting the condition that the president of US should give good conduct certificate to India to his senate every year? Are we accepting the condition that we should go for a separate facility for enrichment of Uranium? Are we going to accept that we should ever depend on US for the supply of nuclear fuel after investing lakhs of crores in importing light water reactors? Are we going to surrender our right to have nuclear weapons or nuclear test for the sake o
RE:An appeal to BJP
by albert fernandes on Oct 17, 2007 12:00 PM Permalink
I am glad you are bringing up real issues here than just bashing china or usa. 1. We only have to expose only some of our plants, especially those bought from other countries.
We should not label people as agents but a honest debate will bring out the merits of the deal and show how badly we need it. 2. We get to choose what we keep secret. 3. we can build more military nuclear plants, there is no cap on that. 4. Our thorium reserves are useless without uranium anyway, there is nothing to desecrate. 5. we got a better deal than japan for reprocessing. 6. we dont have to depend on us for all the nuclear stuff, we can get plants from france and russia, uranium from australia and technology from toshiba of japan. Many countries are waiting to do nuclear business with us. 7. Other suppliers are not bound by the hyde act for us to return stuff to them. Most material cannot easily be dismantled and returned anyway and they dont want it back. It is only a political statement. 8. We have to plan smartly for nuclear tests by getting all our nuclear stuff from other countries but keep usa happy by buying fighter jets from them. 9. India actually does not care too deeply about Iran. It is being used to squeeze more from USA. But foreign policy and global alliances always change so we should not worry about breaking or building bridges, we should be careful though.
RE:RE:An appeal to BJP
by on Oct 17, 2007 10:01 AM Permalink
Since my earlier message was truncated, I am continuing this.
Are we going to accept that we should ever depend on US for the supply of nuclear fuel after investing lakhs of crores in importing light water reactors? Are we going to surrender our right to have nuclear weapons or nuclear test for the sake of defence? I don%u2019t get any credible reply either from government or the negotiator of the deal so far. It is a sigh of relief that at least govt has come forward to go into the details of some of the inconvenient questions. Fortunately BJP took a stand that it is also opposing the deal for the sake of causing inconvenience to Manmohan government and they got committed deeply into their stand and because of this the country is saved. On the other hand those who oppose the deal are witch hunted by the media. Those who do not belong to left are castigated as 'enemies' of the country or development or whatever it may be. It is always easy castigate the left because they have some ideology, policy, principles and it is easy to brand them as agents of China, Cuba, Vietnam or Chavez etc without taking the responsibility of proving any of the allegations openly made in the media. The irony is that those who oppose the deal never castigate the intention of policy makers particularly the government and its bureaucratic team as agents of US, though they completely sided with US interest and got ground to say that.
RE:An appeal to BJP
by Jit Dutta on Oct 17, 2007 11:31 AM Permalink
As usual you are misguided a la Karat & Co who never forgave the US for winning the cold war. So now Karat & Co would "stick" it to the US even if it means harming India's interests. Only China, Pakistan and the "Indian" Left are opposed to the deal. Any Indian but a communist creep can do the math of that anti-India alignment. For the record, there is nothing in the agreement which requires India to assist the US attacking anybody. Besides if the Left wants to partner with Iran, where they torture the communists as enemies of Islamic revolution, then it is their choice. India should look after India's interests as much as China or Vietnam does when they gladly welcome US investment, usher in capitalism while Indian communists would much rather swear obedience to Chinese communists (even while they pay mere lip service to Marxist doctrine while practicing the most ruthless form of capitalism) and prevent India from catching up on progress and prosperity.
For the record, China has ordered several nuclear power plants from the US and western companies so that it can continue to power up its economy while the Left in India would prevent the country from breaking free of its technology denial regime and thus keep permanently hobbled vis-a-vis China.
RE:An appeal to BJP
by Vijayan on Oct 17, 2007 02:02 PM Permalink
Do you think that the Scientists, Sethna, PK Iyengar, M.R.Srinivasan & Prasad are misguided by Karat? In fact, Karat must have got information from these experts and scientists as to which are the merits and demrits of the deal. Instead of discussing the merit of the issue, it is regrettable to bash a set of political parties who have also large mass followings. I request you to counter the view points rather than slandering. I dont agree with your rhetoric slogan "Know a Indan leftist know India's enemy". This is something like Nazi's slogan of Jews hatteredness. At last Nazism was vanished and Jews are still living throughout the world.
If BJP really wants to be the 'Bharat First' party that it claims to be then it shall extend an offer to work with the Congress govt in the interest of the nation. Yes, BJP should have been ruling party today and not Congress, yes MMS/Sonia should have consulted BJP while negotiating the deal. But then it is also BJP's chance to let bygones be bygones for Bharat's sake. Lets face it, if India misses this chance for back door entry to the big league then it can pretty much kiss any such entry goodbye for the next 20-30 years. Its likely that the next US president would be a democrat who would be much less inclined to complete this deal in its present form let alone agreeing to any more benefits as BJP claims it would negotiate if it comes back to power.
BJP now has the choice of either remaining as the party that would rather wallow in self-pity, bitterness and factionalism, or come to its rescue in its hour of needs and save it from the clutches of Left bullies and their cowardly Congress collaborators. BJP has little to lose by offering cooperation to the govt; OTH, BJP has much to gain in the form of nation%u2019s goodwill (who knows it may even pay rich electoral dividends as the %u2018party with a difference%u2019 in the next election). And if Congress spurns BJP%u2019s offer of help then at least the country would know which party stands where while protecting India%u2019s interests. As the architect of Pokhran II its only fitting that BJP now helps Bharat enter backdoo
I am also in the opinion that the BJP should support the deal. If we flood the BJP with e-mails asking them to support, isha allah they may support it. I already sent a mail to BJP, why don't you guys try. wishing all of us luck.
I am a layman when it comes nuclear issues or the stalled India-US nuclear deal. When i read ur article i felt that ur making some emotional request to some one, at first i didnt mind but after realising ur expertise i started laughing because i would expect fact and then a demand from an expert like u.....
Again the pakis and chineese will win because of the corrupt polititians we have. This is not new, this has been like this for more than 1000 yrs. These desh drohis and gadars are the reason why India was ruled by foriegners for over 1000 years. Unless we young stand up and take politics seriuosly this will happen again and again and again. Lets start somewhere...
RE:No Balls
by Rajeev on Oct 17, 2007 03:12 AM Permalink
You are absolutely right. Somewhere we need to start, I think let us (we young) start voting 1st. B'z we young people do not vote, so most of the corrupt, deshdrohi started ruling India.
RE:RE:No Balls
by Loan Shark on Oct 17, 2007 05:08 AM Permalink
who are you going to vote for? like there is much of a choice ... they are all pretty much the same .... if congress wants to do something BJP fears that it will steal the show and becomes an obstacle ... so, if you don't vote for congress you vote for the BJP.
In the end they are all self centered egoistic maniacs ... but hey who cares. Why vote, when you can use the day off to relax and have fun ... why waste your time standing in a line only to cast your vote.
just my philosophy ... no argument if you do not agree
RE:No Balls
by on Oct 18, 2007 09:39 AM Permalink
Yes we have been invaded one after another for over thousand years. Who were at the helm of affairs? Is it not the corrupt, inefficient, dishonest Brahmins who advised the kings made the country backward? Even now the reason for corruption and inefficiency arises because of the Braminical tinge in the governance. The choice before us is to go for less corruptive political formation rather than the more corruptive and inefficient political formation starting in the order of BJP,congress, etc. We have to wait till the Dravidian parties in the south plus Mayavathi in the north overthrow the brahmical order of governance at the centre. We have seen the most corruptive governance in the history of India from 1998 to 2004. I can point out the tip of the iceberg. They sold 2200 crore worth Modern Bread to Hindustan lever to mere 106 crore. 5500 crore Balco to Sterilite to a throwaway price of 551 crores. Cash rich VSNL with the cash reserve of 5000 crore to 1400 crores. sold the Bombay centur hotel to Bhadra to 88 crore who inturn sell it other party to 115 crore within a month and goes on. Corruption was legalised by assigning a separate mininster. It is a good sign that Mayavathi capture power at UP and I wish she would not succumb to Bramical presure when garnering their votes.
