There we go again talking about the fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity...and bashing the Brits or christians. Before the brits / christians, it was the Islamic invasion...which is conveniently forgotten? or avoided by the secular media?
In invasion is an "invasion", be it by christians or muslims or british or chinese... Centuries ago, there was no India; just a number of kingdoms with same / similar religious beleifs and practices. But they fought among each other, and also supported the outsiders (Muslim invaders / brits) to overcome their local enemies. In the long run, they all got enslaved by the Islamic rulers first and then the British and Portuguese. The Hindu-muslim unity in 1857 was a revolt against the british on religious grounds ....not for freedom.... India, as a nation was born in 1947 along with Pakistan. How good is India against foreign attacks (war or terrorism) now? How united is India now? Are the Hindus and muslims united now? Or the minorities have ganged up against the majority? How strong is nationalism now?
In some way, we should be thankful that under the British crown India got united....and got ENGLISH and democracy (that is the only advantage over china).
Had the Muslim rule continued, we all would have been a part of Arabia, and struggling like Afghanistan / Pakistan / Bangladesh......
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by Sadiq Das on May 07, 2007 07:50 PM Permalink
I agree with most of your post except "The Hindu-muslim unity in 1857 was a revolt against the british on religious grounds"
Indians have never and still do not draw lines between nationalism and culturalism. The 1857 uprising was a revolt against many atrocities carried out by the British. Indians have always been more sentimental about religion than civil or human rights (which is a shame) but that is how our country runs. So a revolt against religious tyranny IS in fact a fight for freedom because religious freedom is a basic civil right.
As far as the pros and cons of the British Raj are concerned, I do not even need to go into the details of it because it is no-brainer. However, speculating whether we would have been a part of Arabia or not if muslims had continued to rule is almost impossible to gauge. I believe that in the event of weakening rule of the Mughals, Indians would have staged an uprising against them as well. It took 90 years after the 1857 uprising to achieve democracy. The Brits still believe that they should've stayed back and avoided the mass massacres; the same idealogy is being applied in Iraq by the US - basically destroy a town in order to save it. But as people, every population has a right to conduct its experiments in democracy and pay the price in order to achieve freedom. This revolt may not be such a Hindu-Muslim unity affair as these people are making it out to be, but it was the first few steps in uniting our population as Indians against a common enemy.
So what we need to learn from this is the importance of unity in the face of religious diversities. We dont have to thankful to British about anything. We did not receive democracy from them. Democracy was invented and used a long time back by the Romans and Greeks. The Queen did not give two hoots about Indians and their right to have a democracy. If the 1930 stock market crash and the Nazi destruction of England during WWII hadn't occurred, we would've been their slaves for another 25 - 30 years.
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by firefly on May 07, 2007 10:27 PM Permalink
SADIQ,
Hindus and Muslims can be one only if...Muslims gove up the barbaric idea of only Islam and no religion.
hindus believe in sarva dharma priya concept. If they had beleived in it...Muslims never would have ruled INDIA...they would have been thrown out like Britishers as well.
I think this is why even GOD comes as an incarnation only in INDIA as Hindus are tolerant and have human values.
Other wise which religion beleives in Live & Let Live? If u are seeking the truth...u must follow truth and acknowledge it.
Simply bcoz some one wrote about killing other people in the world and enslave them, their religion doesnt become stronger. This babaric attitude makes u go more closer to SATAN and not GOD. Any religion created in the KALI-YUGA is a satanic religion, the advengt of kali-yuga was 3100BC.
Kali-Yuga: the reign of kali or satan, who himself descended in a place and the place turned into desert and barren mountains (Arabia).
He falsed everyone in the name of GOD and spread violence and cheats in the mind of people. He made good rules only for men and disrespected women which is the most respected "Mother Nature".
Women now too in arabia are regarded just as objects of lust.
Hinduism on the contrary respects every woman & gives her equal rights, but to a moral limitation. But no force.
People can happily live in this world only if religions can be practiced without fear and in harmony with others.
Hindus always encouraged it. If the Muslims too start the practice of beleiving in Sarva Dharma Priya concept then why will there be differences.
If someone didnt spread the word of slaughtering people of other religion, the danger world faces now would have never happened.
Only a sensible human being will understand what im saying.
Rest keep thinking ALLAH will forgive all for killing others.
People are fools who think other people are 1/6 of a musalman.
The rules clearly seem createed by mean human beings in Koran. How can one be so demonish to kill all human beings????for the sake of one religion.
This is surely satans writings. Only people who can think and have their zameer alive will understand what im trying to say.
80%of u all Muslims are converted Hindus. Dont forget that ever.
And the Lord will judge everyone as One not hindus, muslims or christians.
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by surve rizwan on May 08, 2007 11:41 AM Permalink
dear firefly, your perception of Islam and Quran seems to be based on the thesis of some fundamentalist Hindu's. My friend for your information the Islam itself means submission to peace. There is no mention of killings for the sake of religon in Islam. If you are saying of Kali yuga then one can say many religion evolves thereafter almost every. Islam was not forced unto niether there was any islamic expansion. Almost all the kingdom tried to expand even in India and it was for power. Even Asoka the Hindu ruler conquered most of India killing thousands of peasant, was it written in Gita or Ramayana. Man if anything happens we link it to the religion and particularly Islam. About Kali as you have said the satan descended on the land of Arabia i dont know from where did you got it but even we have a deserts and barren mountains, and many places on earth have the same.Islam also teaches secularism but had been always misinterpreted by fundamentalist. There are millions of coptic christian living in Arabia.Your knowledge seems to be limited to ramayana and Bhagvad gita and not upto mark though, but then to if you see both the text the war started with the mistreatment of a woman and at that time only hindu religion was orevailing then. Do you know the sacred text of Hindu's are Four Veda's which clearly mention the role of women.If you think as the westerners do that viel is an opression then there are millions of muslim women who are donning the burkha or the viel. Even in Hindu's as per Veda's a woman should don a veil.Kindly visit the states of Rajasthan Gujrat Bihar UP and many more and you will come to know. If you go through Quran you will come across many times about the equality and rights for women.Last but not the least even today Islam is the largest spreading religion in world and it is just because of the quran. Change your attitude and think in some nuetral way or go study ur religion as well completely and then you can draw the similiarities in between.
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by deepak tribhuwan on May 08, 2007 02:10 PM Permalink
Mr. Rizvan Surve, Your name indicates that you are also a converted Muslim. You said Islam means submission to peace. Why don't you tell this to your Islamic terrorist brothers. You are a muslim so I am asking you about Islamic rulers only. There were many Muslim invaders who came to India demolished Temples and forcibly converted people to Islam. We have a history of their brutality. How do u take that. What kind of submission to peace it was. Can you say that they were doing all unislamic things and were not true muslims ???? All emperors tried to expand their boundaries in the past. I asked about Muslim invaders because you are a muslim ( converted like Dawood Ibrahim Kaskar )Even today don't feel proud to be called an Indian. You have sympathy for Saddam Hussain and his family, Bin Laden, Afzal Qureshi, Dawood. Indian muslims codemns US attack on Iraq but never come forward and shout against pakistan. After saddam's hanging thousands of Indian Muslims demonstrated and destroyed public property in India. What is the connection ???? Hundreds of our soldiers died in Kargil but no one from Muslim community came on road. This is the reality which we know but don't want to accept publicly. We are just pretending to be secular. There is a religious volcanno of hatred in our society which comes out everytime wherever it finds a soft ground.
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by Dream Girl on May 07, 2007 06:25 PM Permalink
So you must be on those believe in the "holy ghost"... Dont talk about democracy.. That was in India since the age of Ramayana and Mahabharatha... The Brits learnt it from us... just shut up... And we need not have required English if the barbaric English tribe had not gone all over the world invading and looting.. the world would have been a much different place...
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by eagle on May 08, 2007 12:51 AM Permalink
hey Dream girl, you are still dreaming. ghost rider is wise enough to live his life in 2007 where as you are still in a era where you cannot go nor will you let others forward who want to go.
kinds like you and your talk instigate hatred.
You need to understand what ghost rider was talking about. Every indian king used british to gain control and get a better control over other kingdoms in india.
Ofcourse if you know like to be taught by english dont write in English and dont teach your kids any english teach ony indian languages.
Be sensible and try to let others live.
get out of your cradle and look into the world . dont keep sucking the same milk bottle. get some hard food too. GROWN UP
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by ramprasad on May 08, 2007 10:42 AM Permalink
hey dream girl. please remember now harijans you are converting as hindus are going to take over the pristhood in few years time from the brahmins and you are going to weep more in the near future because of your foolish actions.
RE:Fairy tale Hindu-muslim unity
by Ghost Rider on May 07, 2007 06:37 PM Permalink
The bitter truth is that Hindus couldn't withstand the Islamic onslaught or the British (Christian) one. They were too busy fighting among themselves, just as they are now! Otherwise how is it possible that the majority in India have to tolerate the whims and fancies of the minority?
1857 brought Hindu and Muslim reactionaries together as they got threatened by the "Goras" out to insult their religion and threaten their practices such as Shariat , untouchability and Sati. It was a holy war which united Hindus and Muslims for a moment and if British had lost - they would have started to slit each other's throats. The cruelty of these "freedom fighters" towards women and children was something unbelievable and rather shameful. It was less like 911 and more like Darfur. The net result of 1857 was that the crown took over the rule of India from East India Company and that began the period during which India started getting integrated and trappings of modern life were introduced. India of 1857 was a lot like Afghanistan of today - disunity , tribalism , religious extremism, no national army etc - and what we had in 1947 was a system given on platter by the British to Indians to take things forward.
IN 1857 Christian missionaries from England, WAS killing Sathagraha freedem fiters hindus in INDIA, WHO CAN CHRISTIAN RELIGON will BECOME A PEACE RELEGION ?? JUST THINK?
Message to All >Stop killing Hindus in Jammu & Kashmir, save Hindus in INDIA, Stop converting Hindus in INDIA, save Hinduism save your self and familys in further. Note: Pass this message to all Hindus you know.
RE:IN 1857 Christian missionaries from England, WAS killing Sathagraha freedem fiters hindus in INDIA, WHO CAN CHRISTIAN RELIGON IS PEACE RELEGION ?? JUST THINK?
by eagle on May 08, 2007 12:55 AM Permalink
Man where do such dafurs come from. who did satya graha in 1857???????
RE:IN 1857 Christian missionaries from England, WAS killing Sathagraha freedem fiters hindus in INDIA, WHO CAN CHRISTIAN RELIGON IS PEACE RELEGION ?? JUST THINK?
by Dream Girl on May 07, 2007 06:19 PM Permalink
And you still dint get an advice from Mr. S R.. Thats a miracle...
RE:IN 1857 Christian missionaries from England, WAS killing Sathagraha freedem fiters hindus in INDIA, WHO CAN CHRISTIAN RELIGON IS PEACE RELEGION ?? JUST THINK?
by S R on May 07, 2007 06:27 PM Permalink
Sometimes miracle do happen !!!!!!!!!!
British had left long ago but we have their progeny still left behind who here r prtending 2 be great patriots by supporting them... Sitting in comfort of homes please dont try 2 make stupid comments when u all dont undestand what scarfices these people had made!!
RE:English Supporters !!!!
by firefly on May 07, 2007 10:32 PM Permalink
S R
Shit ur stupid mouth. Can u tell me what ideas u have to solve terrorism in the country. or u have any fantastic moral points to bring all religions together.
At least a healthy debate can find out what the world seeks. What are u doing here if ur not interested in debates?
RE:English Supporters !!!!
by Dream Girl on May 07, 2007 06:20 PM Permalink
So you are an authority in deciding what we understand and what we do not! Great.. How did you get that wisdom? by continuously advicing others?
RE:RE:English Supporters !!!!
by firefly on May 07, 2007 10:36 PM Permalink
S R
Shit ur stupid mouth. Can u tell me what ideas u have to solve terrorism in the country. or u have any fantastic moral points to bring all religions together.
At least a healthy debate can find out what the world seeks. What are u doing here if ur not interested in debates?
RE:English Supporters !!!!
by vicky on May 08, 2007 11:17 AM Permalink
hey everyone is almost going blah blah about our freedom and the hw we gained it
bt, i am quite sure that britishers just left us for just their sake. Had it been a truly earned freedom on grounds of sacrifice, the leaders then would have savoured it and not create a devastation of division of indo-pak. what good had it earned us?
I always wonder why these christian missionaries tries to influence people (even now with money) to covert to christianity?Every religion Hinduism, Islam etc has got its own importance, principles which never preach others to get converted.why is this so specific to christianity alone ?
RE:Christian Missionaries
by on May 07, 2007 08:08 PM Permalink
Its so simple, Christianity is the only religion which cares about others. Christianity wants all people to be saved.
RE:RE:Christian Missionaries
by Ramasubramaniam Iyer on May 07, 2007 11:51 PM Permalink
Really, Please do explain Goan Inquisition/Spanish Inquisition etc etc. Christian Missionaries in Africa prevent use of Condoms in Africa and now Africa is having worlds largest population of STD's and AIDS. In the Tutsi Massacre in Rwanda Christian Missionaries aided and abetted Hutus who butchered approximately 1 Million Tutsis. Vatican sided with Nazi Germany.
The author has talked about how the Brits followed the policy of divide and rule to hold their control over India.
Now just think: Post independence this is EXACTLY what our pseudo secularists are doing. By giving sops to certain castes and communities, they have effectively kept the majority votes divided.
As long as we have these political vultures around, mark my words, INDIA WILL REMAIN A HOT BED OF RELIGION AND CASTE BASED CLASHES.
It's just a question of carrying forward the Brit legacy, and our political masters are doing a great job at it.
RE:Hindu Muslim unity
by vicky on May 08, 2007 11:25 AM Permalink
rightly said
as long as there is a division in people(reservation), it will live and develope.
i am wondering hw the great good politicians going to stop this reservation scenario when almost all top positions will be in hold of the reserved people.
The brits not just took barbarian revenge. They never trusted and forgived the Poorabiya (UP/Bihari) Rajputs and Brahjmins , communities that made up the bulk of British Army.
The Brit also did nothing towards setting up irrigation in the Gangetic plains the way they set up irrigation for the Indus plains. Also not much was spent in education. The weakness of a UPite and Bihari in English, who are usually much more intelligent otherwise can be directly attributed to British policies.
we as indians had made several mistakes for our own selfish reasons which led to slavery of our country.before the arrival of english we were not as selfish as we became and as we are of now.it took an english to write a book and bring memories of our heroic people who fought for the country not for any specific caste or religion.this is an important how many of indian authors has taken such a bold step,or neither how many of the young generation about the sacrifices made by our people at those time.we indians instead of blaming others lets try to learn more from ourselves itself.our attitude for now is of the lowest of all times.
RE:learn from our mistakes as well from the past
by Dream Girl on May 07, 2007 05:34 PM Permalink
And you are going to get an advice now from Mr. S R (whoever u r)...
