There are only two categories now in india. RESERVED and UNRESERVED.
UNRESERVED has to be united otherwise they will become NEW DALITS in next few decades.
There shouldnt be any discrimination on the name of religion and caste. Even the creamy layer should get all the benefits. There is no fault of a youth if he/she has born in a so called upper caste family or in a creamy layer family. Oppurtunities are available for all in this country and they should be made available for all.
RE:Only two categories are in india now
by B SRIPAD BHAT on Mar 07, 2007 04:06 PM Permalink
Mr. Shailesh sharma -- the more and more you talks the more and more you looks like a joker! what a joker you are!such a cruality in your thinking is that we are wondering weather you are having any basics of COmmonsense,humanity,civilian awareness and minimum eduction which tells about social justice , cast discriminations etc.shame shame
RE:Only two categories are in india now
by SSCD on Mar 07, 2007 10:47 AM Permalink
It's a myth that there are infinite opportunities. But then who pays for the sins of our forefathers? Certainly, we've to.
At the same time, there has to be basic qualitative requirement for each opportunity, irrespective of reservations.
RE:RE:Only two categories are in india now
by Shailesh Sharma on Mar 07, 2007 10:50 AM Permalink
according to your theory the britishers should be punished and indians should have any relation with them even they shouldnt be allowed to enter in india?? right SSCD?? can a person be punished for the murder executed by his/her father ???
RE:RE:RE:Only two categories are in india now
by SSCD on Mar 07, 2007 11:40 AM Permalink
Why was someone declared untouchable just by birth? Why were (and still are, at lots of places in this country) people ill-treated just looking at the family/caste they were born in? As you sow, so you reap!
And you talk of equal opportunity, how can you compare those who can afford better tuitions (becuase their fathers can pay for it) against those who have toiled hard and made their way up due to sheer determination and in-born brilliance but whose fathers couldn't pay for expensive tuitions? Provide equal resources to all and then talk of these things!
RE:RE:RE:RE:Only two categories are in india now
by Shailesh Sharma on Mar 07, 2007 11:43 AM Permalink
Then it is totally a matter related to the economic condition of the family. You should know that every so called upper caste family is not rich.
Caste system is basically a form of racism that%u2019s prevalent in USA for long time before Rosa Parks and MLK etc started the revolutionary movement.
A lot has to be done to eradicate this gradually, but it's not hopeless in India. During my days in India I found a lot of Brahmins hated lower castes, but some of them were progressive enough to hate the caste system itself! So it%u2019s changing but just not fast enough.
The fundamental is to gain economic and social powers. It needs efforts from both the people and Govt. over a long period of time. First govt. should incent the poor and meritorious students with pre-authorized adequate study loans (like FAFSA etc in USA) for primary to highest level of education. It should be linked to performance so that loan will continue if performance continues to be adequate. It makes a lot more economic sense because successful students will pay back quickly and money will circulate in the system! Subsidy is a wrong way of incentive %u2013it creates free-rider problem.
Second, for top exams like IIT, Medical entrance, IIM, IAS etc Govt. should ban any candidate to appear more than twice. That will prevent millionaires%u2019 sons and daughters to clear these tests in 79th attempts. It will help select true merits and prevent lemons. All 12 standards students should be eligible to take loans for such exams. That will make the field even.
Third - English is very important in global economy. It helps secure education and work abroad which is a great equalizer. But in my own experience, the system including banks etc don%u2019t help much students even if someone wins a place at an Ivy league school such as Harvard/Stanford/MIT etc.
Govt./Banks should especially incent such students to study abroad and give full study loans, because such students will pay back in no time once out of school. While Indian financial institutions couldn%u2019t figure out this simple truth - banks of USA would happily sanction loans to such students, and enjoy interest payments thereafter. Who%u2019s intelligent and who%u2019s stupid?
It%u2019s a great irony that educational institutions in USA sincerely consider students who are meritorious and come up against great adversities of life. But meritorious Indian students mostly don%u2019t know it, or can%u2019t circumvent the initial disparity or barrier. Thus education abroad is still mostly the luxury and hubris of wealthy ones (although recently changing).
Aspiring and truly meritorious Indian students must know their leverage and shouldn%u2019t waste their lives in a discriminating system. They should seek out and globally establish them where it%u2019s relatively more equal. And good English is crucial here.
Govt./financial institutes should provide this initial help with return based loans %u2013 let there be a healthy business around this. The overall the system will thus be profiting, sustainable and socially positive.
It will not happen overnight, but it%u2019s possible by perseverance over a generation. I have experimented it with myself to see whether an average lower middle class Indian guy whose parents ridiculed him for his dreams of Havard/ Stanford/Yale/ MIT can do it %u2013 and it%u2019s possible - although it takes long.
Anyone cares or dares to ask Amartya Sen%u2019s caste? That%u2019s the way %u2013 don%u2019t be an Indian standard %u2018good%u2019 - be a world standard good - there%u2019s no second way of earning respect %u2013 just fight till u win or die!
The author seems to have derived his hypothesis purely from his experience. This argument lacks depth. When I studied @ school, I didn't know what caste meant until 6th grade. Then all of a sudden when I changed school in 1980, the first set of questions where, What is your name, father's name and then caste. This was asked in front of other students in my class. I was blinking big time and some one else intervened to say I am a brahmin figuring out that I am one.
Casteism is not linked to languages. It is always in the mindset. If Dalits want to present themselves as perennially oppressed, they will feel oppressed and be oppressed. If they want to feel respected, it should start with self respect. As long as they project themselves like that and get more and more doles from the government, they will not be respected. Respect will have to be commanded and not demanded. If former president KR Narayanan kept on trumpeting the fact that he was a dalit, he would have never been respected. Instead he stood up as a good elderly statesman, a honorable bureaucrat and one who added value to Rashtrapati Bhavan. This is what commanded respect. By the way, he always spoke in Malayalam when the occasion afforded that. He didn't always speak in English. Did he?
How does celebrating,Macaulay's B'day and establishing English as Dalit's goddess,have anything to do with a better future for Dalits? Also what exactly defines a god or goddess?
its a ridiculous point hundreds of entuprneurs in rural india are making good money without english knowledge my point is simple respect does not bring money good education does and unless and untill you create jobs being a entuprneur you cant increase employment caste discrimination is a reality just like religion is unless you wipe out religion we cant wipe out castism language is the main thread of culture the day the language dies a history is lost not just glorious but also the infamous incidents recorded in history by folklore english will never replace regional languages even today 70% of the nation is dependent on agriculture there are more number of telgu and bengali speakers when compared to tamil or hindi in the world kannada and malyalum have fledging cenima and litrature so please stop saying such things
I am born in a brahmin family. We grew up eating and playing with kids from tribal and "lower-caste"(we did not know this) families. We had a house maid who passed away, who was a tribal. She was treated like a family elder and we used to touch her feet on all festivals and family Functions. Caste lower and upper is in our minds. It would not have gone away by saying good morning to her. It went away because we did not know it was there. Pranam to everybody.
America the land of good morning had segregation until 1965 and slavery for a long time.
The british who say good morning were one of the biggest slave traders and colonizers who caused unparalled poverty in many colonies including India.Just saying Good Morning does not make everybody equal.
* no point in blaming indian languages for caste * caste is a mind set * it is cultivated largely by politicians since they benefit and get vote from it * it is also promoted by people like Chandra Bhan Prasad who can get all privileges in the name of Dalits depriving real poor dalits their due * much of the concessions in India is cornered by a few like Chandra Bhan Prasad who speak for Dalits accuse others and India ,who steals the real Dalit's right and concessions and who is the real opressor * as long as people like him remain Dalit leader Dalits cant improve whether they leran English or NOT . * This is the Reality .
'Savage' is yet another derogatory word they invented to describe all indegenous people.
8. In the western world, they had their own version of casteism, they had Lords , Nobles and commons, and Lords and Nobles had more priviledges than commons.They had separate churches , burial grounds etc and the lords/nobles did not marry commons. ' House of Lords' and 'House of Commons' in UK is a silent reminder of their dodgy past. I don't think the lords/nobles bowed and greeted commons!
9. In India many Saints came from backward Castes.Iam not an expert,but here are a few I remember, from my limited reading. btw none of them wrote/spoke english
Rishi Valmiki who wrote Ramayan : Caste : Koli / Fisherman Sant Tukaram: caste : Vani (Baniya ) /shopkeeper Sant Namdev : Caste : Shimpi / tailor Sant Gora Kumbhar : Caste : Kumbhar/ Pot maker Sant Savta Mali : Caste: Mali / Gardener Sant Chokha Mela : Caste : Mahar ( same caste as Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar ) Sant Sena Nhavi: Caste : Nhavi / Barber Sant Narayan Guru from Kerala also belonged to a backward caste.
This proves that even if you are from backward caste , the doors are not shut for you. you can still succeed and if you are capable people will follow you and worship you. you also need to put some effort of your own though.
How many christian/english saints were commoners before being 'appointed' as saints by the pope ? if iam not mistaken many Pirates , thieves were made 'saints' by the pope because they served the interests of Christianity i.e looting Moorish/muslim ships , helping fight protestants etc.
10. English was the language used during slavery , the church of england benefited immensely from the slave trade as they used to get a share of the profits. after slavery was abolished , they invented 'indentured labour' ,indians were taken to work in near-slavery like conditions in Mauritiaus, carribean where they had to toil in sugarcane fields. the language was english.
so its not the language that dictates attitude. language is just a vehicle to convey your attitude. any language can be misused for that purpose. If Mr Prasad lived in UK / US he would realise that knowledge of english will not save him from rascism. his skin colour will matter there.
RE:RE:continued: please allow me to clear some misconceptions
by animesh kumar on Mar 06, 2007 10:52 PM Permalink
Vivekanand was from a high caste family; I think Ksatriya Zamindar kinds.
RE:RE:RE:continued: please allow me to clear some misconceptions
by Bhaskar Chattopadhyay on Mar 07, 2007 08:51 AM Permalink
Nope. He was very close to what we call these days SC.
You can depend on my info.
MV kamath, the veteran journalist wrote a piece on this in last few months.
Even there were hardly any Brahmins amongst the direct disciples of Ramakrishna Paramhansa.
In any case, caste awareness is minimum in Bengal. Because of long tradition of Bhakti-Movement of Sri Chatanyadev.
