bismillah ur rahman ir raheem firstly all thanks to Allah firstly i would like to praise this kafir who has brought out certain facts that no one wanted to talk about. aurangzeb indeed was hardline sunni who thought that shias too were not muslims many shias were persecuted during his regime , in fact shias suffered more so than hindus . one reason for this was that although he was sunni king his army depended heavily on rajputs , just like most sunni armies of the past did . hence although he persecuted hindus he could not go all out as that would lead to open revolt by all hindus in his army and his sunni empire would end. as far as shias go he had no such dependancies , so he did whatever he could to destroy shias, who are the true followers of prophet ( sallallahu allayhe wassalam ) and who have stood faithfully behind the prophet( sallallahu allayhe wassalam )'s family. hence instead of criticising this man as agent of hindus or some other organisation , it is best we focussed on the truth that he has brought forward and accept it , for Allah loves not those who reject the truth. Ahmed Shah
RE:RE:aurangzeb hated shias too
by arvind singh on Feb 17, 2007 01:17 PM Permalink
Hi, first of all we should ask what is the truth ? saying that we are the true followers and commenting a person as "kafir", is certainly not truth.
i think the person a k himself is having same mentality as aurengzeb. the differnce is that he is not an emperor like aurengzeb.
we should accept that GOD can not be two or three and we can not say that the GOD which Hindu worship is different and those which Sunnis worship is differnt and tat Shias worship is someone else.....
the very fundamental if islam and holy quran as far i know is that GOD is infinite, no shape, no boundary... and every body wether a person believing in GOD or one who does not believe, is created by GOD. so how can we discriminate people just on the basis of faith.
if we think that we are real follower just because of genetic lineages, or a history, will that give a special status to us in front of GOD ? no GOD if any , if anytime meet us will judge us by our deeds, and not by our faith...... i think the very basis of islam is simplicity and not discrimintaion which i feel the person who posted this comment feels.
and one more thing i want to emphasis. the whole history or world is full of wars, killings cruelity. so amny hidu rajas were also cruel. the persons in aurangzebs army were also many hindus. anybody fighting in an army solely for the purpose of offence and gaining terriroty, is like aurengzeb. how can a person kill somebody, if he believes in GOD. Deffence is another case but we know that mostly wars were fought not for deffence but to gain a territory.
one more thing.
Aurengzeb was not the representative of islam, he was just a king. there were many more, why we do not give emphasis to Akhbar...? just because he talked about love and peace..... there is no "masala" in that. why we do not talk about jenhagir....? similar is the case with hindus. there were thousands of rajas in history but we pay respect to few of them only and talk about few of them only. they are not the represantatives of hidus or common man.
i think inmorndern times we are living in a more open society, a democratic society, and we should think also like that. the age of kings have gone log before....
RE:aurangzeb hated shias too
by arvind singh on Feb 17, 2007 01:16 PM Permalink
Hi, first of all we should ask what is the truth ? saying that we are the true followers and commenting a person as "kafir", is certainly not truth.
i think the person a k himself is having same mentality as aurengzeb. the differnce is that he is not an emperor like aurengzeb.
we should accept that GOD can not be two or three and we can not say that the GOD which Hindu worship is different and those which Sunnis worship is differnt and tat Shias worship is someone else.....
the very fundamental if islam and holy quran as far i know is that GOD is infinite, no shape, no boundary... and every body wether a person believing in GOD or one who does not believe, is created by GOD. so how can we discriminate people just on the basis of faith.
if we think that we are real follower just because of genetic lineages, or a history, will that give a special status to us in front of GOD ? no GOD if any , if anytime meet us will judge us by our deeds, and not by our faith...... i think the very basis of islam is simplicity and not discrimintaion which i feel the person who posted this comment feels.
and one more thing i want to emphasis. the whole history or world is full of wars, killings cruelity. so amny hidu rajas were also cruel. the persons in aurangzebs army were also many hindus. anybody fighting in an army solely for the purpose of offence and gaining terriroty, is like aurengzeb. how can a person kill somebody, if he believes in GOD. Deffence is another case but we know that mostly wars were fought not for deffence but to gain a territory.
one more thing.
Aurengzeb was not the representative of islam, he was just a king. there were many more, why we do not give emphasis to Akhbar...? just because he talked about love and peace..... there is no "masala" in that. why we do not talk about jenhagir....? similar is the case with hindus. there were thousands of rajas in history but we pay respect to few of them only and talk about few of them only. they are not the represantatives of hidus or common man.
i think inmorndern times we are living in a more open society, a democratic society, and we should think also like that. the age of kings have gone log before....
RE:aurangzeb hated shias too
by Ashish Sonik on Feb 17, 2007 01:02 PM Permalink
Nice to read a correct and a thoughtful response, I think whatever happened is a chapter of history and it should be explained in a true way. These days we have the history re created for the political interest, it's true that fighting and supporting bloodshed in present time on the basis of historical events is madness, history is written so that we should learn from the past events and plan our present and future accordingly. In the present time who has the time of fighting over the name of religion, caste, status etc. Let's be a little bit more realistic and thoughtful in our lives. READ, LEARN, ENJOY, REGRET, CELEBRATE BUT DON'T REPEAT HISTORY.
RE:RE:aurangzeb
by mohammed uddin on Feb 17, 2007 03:56 PM Permalink
Good question shinde, if I NASEER, called as SHINDE, then how does it diffrerentaited, cause QURAN VERSES are in arabic therefore, and my dear IBDATH ( good deed) is not just confined to NAMAAZ alone, god can hear the noise of black ants foots, in a dark night on a black rock. shindey if I am not wrong even VEDAS says that God has no shape. I do not know much about Taslima Nasreen, but as a normal muslim gentleman ( Not Ulema ) i am ready to face a debate with her.
I thought ur article is well-written. But the truth is u haven't understood the topic. Vande Mataram is a song in which Land is considered as mother. In Hinduism we bow in front of our mother in respect. If you don't want to sing Vande Mataram, please don't sing it. It's a secular country everybody is free. Secondly, the solar / lunar systems are considered Gods in Hinduism with different perspectives. Since Sun provides energy we worship Sun. Again it's a question of individual belief and individual moralilty. I don't think All these systems (Solar etc) are servants are Human Being. Human Being is just another beneficiary amongst other animals. They are created long before Humans are created. I think you didn't know this.
It's good that you don't advocate Aurangzeb. One should not praise bad deeds and bad people though they are part of our so called musguided history. Ayodhya has created hatred. Agreed. But what about so many temples lost. It's proven that the temples were built first on those places. Please don't praise those politicians who asked status-quo during independence. They have misguided Indians. History and politicians have always benefited Muslims. But God has not spared them. Remember one thing; Every action has equal and opposite reaction.
This way, majority of Muslims in India today are illiterate, poor and absolutely confused about their identity. Some feel they are part of this country and some work against it. So days are not far when Muslims will be wiped out of India.
RE:RE:aurangzeb
by mohammed uddin on Feb 17, 2007 04:19 PM Permalink
Harish, for GOD sake dont pray to MOUSE, GENETALS ( Lingam ) and don't advocate yaar, hinduism has turned to civilisation, thanks to Lord mount betin and Raja Ram mohan Rai, atleast SATI has been discorded, similarly PLZ. give off praying LINGAM dont worship to GENETALS, SUN, MOON, AIR, etc yaar. MOTHER is a MOTHER hence no body can the place of mother not even GRAND MOTHER, like wise BIRTH LAND, is a BIRTH LAND alone to protect its boundries all its citizens has to shed their blood, u have gone bit harsh dear, saying you will wipe off muslims from india, and this is a nightmare, listen NO BODY IS A WINNER IN A WAR, blood will shed from both sides, AGAIN NEWTONS THIRD LAW. regarding temple issue i have already said that how long one can go back????. JAI HIND & LONG LIVE MY MOTHER LAND
It can be only in India that a foreginer like Farncois Gautier is let loose to spread venom and divide the society as long as his agenda confirms to Hindunazi RSS VHP and other Hindu Militant Oragnization ,no wonder a saint like Mother Teresa is not accepted by the Hindu Nazis but a hired Hindunazi propagandist finds place in the fundamentalist Hindu society, this self styled and self proclaimed FRENCH historian is writing utter nonsense without any references and proof , his whole aim like rediff.com seems to be to further the agenda of Hindu terrorist organizations like VHP Bajrang Dal etc.
If Aurangzeb was such a bad guy they you need to look at the temples in Aurangabad which were given regular donations and maintenace funds by him, if the Muslim rulers were so bad and forced people to conversion all of India would be Muslim after 1100 years of rule.
The attempts by the Hindunazi thinktank and "hired propagandist" like Farncois is to create a rift amongst the different religious minorities in India by propagating lies and exagerating the conflict of the Mughals and the early Sikhs.But the fact is that Aurangzeb was applying the rule of the law and crushing the rebellion in Punjab atleast he did not kill innocents like Hindu fundamnetalists do against Muslims and Sikhs and Christians, the Hindunazis and the Hindu fundamentalists called Bhindranwale a terrorist when he was also doing teh same to have a independent Sikh land , what right does India have to control sikhs and punjab , they have a different identity and different religion and right deserve a nation,but the confused hired and underpaid Hindunazi think-tank comprising individuals like Francoise is unethical and unprofessional in their profession of propaganda.
Can we get the history included in Manusmirti where hot oil is poured in the ears of the Shudras and the lower castes by the Brahmins , can this hired propagandist of the Hindunzais have guts to write about that, you want our kids to learn history how about some real history and not the false legend of Aurangzeb and propaganda.
Indeed the Hindunazis hate the Muslim rules becuase they save the lower castes from the tyranny of the Hindunazis becuase they considered and Islam teaches that all human are equal in the eyes of god and anyone can be superior to other only by good deeds and actions and not by birth as the Hindunazis claim.
This is a pitiful attempt by this paid propagandist of Hindunazis advocating Hindutva.
RE:Francoise Gautier a paid progandist!!!
by Saurav Basu on Feb 17, 2007 12:35 PM Permalink
Your moronic statements are devoid of a grain of truth. The very fact, that the oppressed lower castes refused to convert to Islam, is ample testimony to the innate strength of the Hindu religion.
No less than a historian like Will Durant has attested that the islamic conquest of India was the most bloody in the history of world civilization. Paid protagonists...ahmmm
RE:Francoise Gautier a paid progandist!!!
by anurag verma on Feb 17, 2007 12:49 PM Permalink
The very fact that Mother teresa found a place for herself in India not is Muslim Country it shows clear intolrence of Muslims (not Islam). Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan etc has more poor and needy.
The basic fact that in any country of the world, wherever there are muslims there is fight, bloodshed says it all. Eg: Sudan, U.K, Civil war of lebenon. This include Muslim countries like Pakistan, Iraq as well where Shia and sunni explosives are targeted against each other in absence of a Kafir. They have been fighting since the battle of karbla. appx. 1400 years, Nothing is going to change...
RE:Francoise Gautier a paid progandist!!!
by anurag verma on Feb 17, 2007 12:50 PM Permalink
The very fact that Mother teresa found a place for herself in India not is Muslim Country it shows clear intolrence of Muslims (not Islam). Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan etc has more poor and needy.
The basic fact that in any country of the world, wherever there are muslims there is fight, bloodshed says it all. Eg: Sudan, U.K, Civil war of lebenon. This include Muslim countries like Pakistan, Iraq as well where Shia and sunni explosives are targeted against each other in absence of a Kafir. They have been fighting since the battle of karbla. appx. 1400 years, Nothing is going to change...
I see many messages saying -- dont divide us.. but, this is not about diving us, but about understanding of our history. If many of you believe what Mr. Gautier has written is true, but dont want to discuss about this - seems very silly. This proves 2 things - You believe, we read sugar-coated history and history should never be taken seriously Propaganda is better than Truth as long as everything looks fine from outside But, unless we have an honest discussion about our own past (and learn from that), we can never be part of a good history (for generations to come). Because, it is doomed to fail oneday and that would be a disaster for everyone. Look at the mistrust we have in society today: Every poor thinks Rich are looting the country Every OBC thinks Brahmins have ruled them for centuries Every Muslim thinks non-Muslims are Kafirs But, look at the facts and look at our policies. Policies tend to support Propaganda -- be it Land Laws of 1970s and our Tax System Reservation for OBC Special treatments for Minorities, Free Haj trips, Sarkar report implementation, etc So, to change policies we need better understanding of History and History should be based on Truth and only truth.
RE:Attention Humanists and Nationalists
by abid khan on Feb 17, 2007 12:44 PM Permalink
Mr.Mairan Mairan
I am not agree of your all these points. you have no knowledge about islam why & how did you written all these point. do you want to make smart. thinks, before write any of this point understand.I do'nt understand actually what do you wants to say. How you can say that "Muslims dont answering valid questions" do you know the meaning of valid or invalid. first understnad yourself meaning this word (valid).
rediff should stop this message board , since its arising more communal tensions between groups, since people who express there feelings are less educated and dont know about the history. they just wanted to outburst there hatred.
how do you explain all those gifts to temples and deras in different parts of the country granted by aurangzeb?if it was darbar politics to eliminate dara ,the hard policy comes not from conviction butgreed.how did the hindu rajas of himachal gang up with such antihindu muslim against sikh guru gobind sigh?so long bigotted hindus survive,the spirit of aurangzeb will survive.-jug
RE:Attention humanists and nationalists
by mohammed uddin on Feb 17, 2007 02:54 PM Permalink
CHANGE IS INEVITABLE RESISTANCE TO CHANGE Is my reply to this article. I would not have made my comments on this article, had I not seen VANDE MATARAM, if vandemataram describes the MOTHER LAND as NATION IS GOD, or I PRAY LAND, or I BOW BEFORE LAND then I do not sing that rubbish. I do distinguish the diff. between GOD and LAND, though I am ready to sacrifice my life for the protection of my BIRTH LAND but I am not stupid to call the LAND AS GOD, I am firm believer that HUMAN BEING is superior among all creations / creatures, rest all are servants of HUMANBEING. I do not pray, SUN, MOON, EARTH, STAR, FIRE, WATER, LAND, TREE, STONE, GENETALS. If this gets clear, then the article itself nullifies Assuming that my forefather had I forcible conversion, I do not mind, because now at this age I equally distinguish the difference in between ISLAM and other religion, and I got pride to be a MUSLIM, because ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY is my GOD who is free from all SHAPES, I need not have to give shape to my GOD so as to concentrate, if I am doing that I am distorting the image of GOD at my whelms and fancies whom I have not seen. Coming to AURANGZEB When INDIA obtained INDEPENDENCE under its CONSTITUTION it was written that STATUSQUO shall be maintained, that mean if a structure on that day of independence is a TEMPLE, then shall remain as temple, and if a structure is a MOSQUE shall remain so, irrespective of that building%u2019s or land%u2019s history. This clause is mature enough while viewing MASS and dealing with, because how long one can live in the past ??, how for some one can go back, and find the history and authenticity of the history??. Today it%u2019s a mosque yesterday was a temple day before could have been a mosque or a Buddhist temple???. Therefore STRIKING POINT is essential, and was successfully done at the time of INDEPENDENCE OF INDAI, by the people with knowledge, foresight and value based politicians. What all happened in ayodhya has gone endless, and created hatred in two communities. This proposed exhibition will not yield good result, except added hatred. I DO NOT ADVOCATE ALL DOINGS OF AURANGZEB
Coming to JAZIYA the tax, every nation has same practice, in the form of SALES TAX, INCOME TAX, ENTERTAINMENT TAX, and all DIRECT and INDIRECT TAXES. At the era of Aurangzeb MUSLIMS were paying ZAKATH and non Muslims JAZIYA.
Author of this article is praising WOMEN WITH OPEN FACE, WATCH TV, FILMS
MODESTY IS personal choice, its good to be house lady than a Fashion Model Does any religion advocates a lady and a gentleman to act as wife and husband, once they are not, even on screen ???. SOCIENTAL EVILS ARE ROOT CAUSE OF FILMS. Should I prolong saying that how our Indian females are giving off their clothes oflate, is this not the gift of WATCHING TV, and FILMS???.
Whoever Aurangzeb was good or bad but it was a past history. A lot of fights have already happened. We must now look at the present instead of looking back. We will not gain anything from this. India is a country where there are all caste of people staying together. We must be united and fight the terrorism. Jay Bharat
RE:History
by on Feb 17, 2007 04:19 PM Permalink
Please define PAST!Will U acept the demolition of Ayodhya a past event and forget and give Hindus the Right to construct Ram Temple.Assume we invade Mecca and construct our temple on the remains of the Mosque after destroying it wil the Muslims keep quiet even after Hundred Thousand Years!God Save Hindus from these Secularists!Hare Ram!
Yes, we need a Dara Shikoh urgently, who can first of all help recall all Kashmiri Pundits to their homeland, and tell the terrorists that Kashmir has no need or place for them- that they can go back from where they came.
Aurangzeb was cruel- a typically fundamentalist Muslim, like the Nazi Hitler.
Not only his brother Dara, but he got his father and sister imprisoned for life,and did many a cruel act. Yet we know he was extremely intelligent, worked with his hands, negated all the Mughal luxuries and wastage of money and resources.
But frankly Mr Gautier, I have not understood your reasoning for an exhibition on Aurangzeb, unless you have one on Dara Shikoh too, and more importantly, on Akbar.
RE:We need today a Dara Shikoh
by Observer Observer on Feb 17, 2007 12:04 PM Permalink
He will not get paid by the Hindunazis for having an exhibition on Darashikoh or Akbar or the greatest freedon fighter of India Tipu Sultan, you see thats the reason Francoise and Rediff publish such articles.
RE:We need today a Dara Shikoh
by jaanhavi nikam on Feb 17, 2007 12:24 PM Permalink
Thats the best comment..the essence of life and beauty of nature is balance. We have very bad and very good things in this world..both of them are neccessary...so if Mr Francos has presented some facts about Aurnagzeb..then he should balance with the good things ( if not balance atleast put them forward)..the whole article seems to be researched and written with a purpose..so if u want to find bad things you will get the bad ones only...a true historian should an dispassionate enquirer of the subject matter..in this case it does not seems to be
