I have never understood India and its Muslim fixation. I think priorities of Modern India is badly misguided. I dont think not speaking about truth would do any good for country or for that matter even Muslims. This policy of Muslim appeasement will have to go away. Next generation Indians will never want to live in divided society, which believes in appeasement based on caste, creed, sex, color or religion. Our appeasement has gone to the level that we are allowing Shariat law over a common law and common code of conduct in our own country? What is more ridiculous is that we are ignoring the growing Muslim population? Western analysts already predicting that in future India will become a Muslim dominated country. Look around, there is no appeasement of other religions in Muslim dominated countries...If Aurangzeb did wrong, he should be called wrong and truth should not be ignored, history should not be ignored for the cause of appeasement...You know what? If we stop this appeasement policy and just support them in education and other spheres...maybe Muslims would get hurt with truth for a little time but they will overcom....may be...or may be not..But, the whole point is that this country was carved on the basis of truth, secularism and non violence..Lets not forget our principles and be REAL truthful, REAL secular and REAL non-violent..
RE:Muslim appeasement.....Secular?????...haha
by damien martin on Feb 18, 2007 09:48 AM Permalink
If india has real equality then y do u have 48% reservations for hindus(even if it is low caste think about it)
RE:RE:Muslim appeasement.....Secular?????...haha
by alok kumar on Feb 18, 2007 10:14 AM Permalink
Nope...that was my point. We do not have REAL truthfulness, REAL secularism and REAL non-violence. I agree with you. Why 48% reservation for lower castes? MAy be for Ambedkar's recommended time period(10 yrs) it was not bad. But this has become a never ending saga. This has become an excuse to escape from fact that we did not provide them better education etc...
RE:RE:Muslim appeasement.....Secular?????...haha
by damien martin on Feb 18, 2007 09:53 AM Permalink
If india is secular y this discrimination y have reservations for only one religious group or indian constitution does not considers low caste hindus as hindus
RE:RE:Muslim appeasement.....Secular?????...haha
by John Fernandes on Feb 18, 2007 10:52 AM Permalink
why do islamic republics consider ahmediyas as outcastes?
RE:RE:RE:Muslim appeasement.....Secular?????...haha
by vijay Reddy on Feb 19, 2007 12:51 AM Permalink
Religion is only based on beliefs and nobody has any authentic proofs of what all had been written in our religious texts is true...have we ever seen a miracle happening...its all belief...and just in the name of these beliefs, why do we want to quarrel...When somebody asks for a glass of water, you don't ask him his religion and belief to quench his thirst...and this is what matters...Everyone should take this approach in every aspect...There should be a ban on people speaking about religion if its doing no good...
RE:RE:Muslim appeasement.....Secular?????...haha
by pieceful on Feb 18, 2007 10:14 AM Permalink
Indian equality is imperfect. Some Indians, especially those who belong to minorities are more equal and get special benefits. For example, muslims get a subsidy for their Haj pilgrimage (India is the only country in the world which does that). Hindus are not given the same benefits for their pilgrimages. I agree the point about reservations, they should be totally removed.
Its funny u guyz are just venting out ur anger against each other. Muslims ruled india for more than 400 years. I ask all u guyz, how many hindus were killed in communal clashes during that time how many were mass murdered by the muslim kings. The mughals were so powerful if they wanted they could have forced conversion for atleast some part of the country. Say their capital DELHI. If they were really killers they would have asked all people to in delhi to become muslims. Leave alone the whole country they did not force a single hindu to become muslim. Even after ruling the country for 500 years muslims constitute for only 15% of the country. They would have been cruel if muslims would have been 85% and hindus 15%. But no all who have become muslims is by there own choice and not by force. All who have become muslims are by choice and not by force. It really is funny how biased people can be and cannot see simple facts
RE:Aurangzeb
by John Fernandes on Feb 18, 2007 09:19 AM Permalink
what u people conveniently forget that if u include the populations of undivided india percentage of muslims is 45% and not 15% most bengalis have been converted to islam as have most kashmiris this proves you are another pseudo secular muslim
RE:RE:Aurangzeb
by damien martin on Feb 18, 2007 09:45 AM Permalink
Mr. Fernandes get ur figures right if u consider population of bangladesh and pakistan also it comes to 29% go learn history, geography, maths and then talk u xtremist
RE:RE:RE:Aurangzeb
by John Fernandes on Feb 18, 2007 10:53 AM Permalink
so isnt 29% more than 15% you have talked about hahaha see you yourself need to learn history geography maths etc etc
RE:Aurangzeb
by Ramesh P on Feb 18, 2007 02:46 PM Permalink
How did Guru Tej Bahadur die ?? Read some history and not Madrasaa crap moron. You just blabber here without knowing facts. Looks like you just got into the real world after having madrasaa education for 20 yrs. Get a life.
RE:Aurangzeb
by Ramesh P on Feb 18, 2007 02:44 PM Permalink
atleast 1crore or even more. Is that a good enough estimate. For details, read one of the postings of "fighter". In Guj, first time muslims got killed and you idiots who are used to killing once you get killed, you cry foul. Pity you, brainwashed morons.
Because the Pandits were so loving, compassionate Pandits, all the so called low caste ants and cockroches of Hinduism converted to other religions? Could that be possible?
RE:RE:Ever Wonder there are no Hindus other than Pandits in Kashmir?
by John Fernandes on Feb 18, 2007 09:19 AM Permalink
in that case why are cockroaches of islam ie shias and ahmediyas not converting
RE:Ever Wonder there are no Hindus other than Pandits in Kashmir?
by pieceful on Feb 18, 2007 09:53 AM Permalink
Little did those who converted realise the dangers inherent in the new religions. When they converted to Islam, they belonged to the higher caste of muslims and could look down upon the lower caste of kafirs. When they became Christians they could feel superior in the belief that they are the only ones who would escape hellfire. Society has always had caste system, we humans are to blame for this. All Hindus who are sincere in removing caste barriers are to be credited. May their tribe increase.The rest with ulterior motives can continue to harp on the caste system and aim at conversions so that their religion could become the most dominant and grow at the highest rate, but the efforts of those who aim at reforming Hinduism won't go wasted.
Tired of asking people not to go by the wicked author , whose sole aim is to spread hatred.
Seldom do people listen.
I have read enough history today on these posts, that I read in 3 years of highschool!
Amazing, its very very easy to divide and rule.
Just one request to you all at the end.
Whatever might be Aurangzeb's history
should we be fighting about it today ??
Hope you all have a very good sunday.
AVOID HATRED.... Cool argument but a long one :-
A good read - a long one though. But not long enough to discard.
FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE WHO HAD NOT READ THIS SPLENDID CONVERSATION EARLIER.
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty.
He asks one of his new students to stand and.....
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.
Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...
Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever
seen God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your
God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even
more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.
Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
NB: I believe you have enjoyed the conversation...and if so...you'll probably want your friends/colleagues to enjoy the same...won't you?.... this is a true story, and the student was none other than.........APJ Abdul Kalam, the present president of India.
RE:Signing off.............
by Secular Indian on Feb 20, 2007 08:11 AM Permalink
Cute but flawed. Once can measure heat, light and life but not the presence of God. The duality invoked to justify heat/cold, life/death & dark/light is flawed for the same reason, it moves into the realm of semantics and then is forcefully boxed into theology.
RE:Islamic menace!...
by chaitanya kumar on Feb 18, 2007 06:41 AM Permalink
It's more than 900 million Hindus in subcontinent. Refer sources before posting nonsense. There is a purpose why people use Wikipedia or other available sources.
RE:RE:hindu nazi
by Observer Observer on Feb 18, 2007 07:30 AM Permalink
Oh yeah Nazism doesnt exist in India?What a lie!!!
A fundamentalist Hindu nazi party called the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is vigorously at it by fanning communal flames and periodically resorting to torture of Untouchables, Tribals, Muslims and Christians. The ultimate aim of the RSS is to clamp a class-caste fascist dictatorship, before which the Hitler's nazi rule will pale into insignificance, crush the Untouchables and castrate the minorities.
RE:RE:RE:hindu nazi
by Ramesh P on Feb 18, 2007 02:55 PM Permalink
Gandhiji attended a Sangh Camp in 1934, Nagpur and was surprised to see lack of untouchability. It gave such a deep impression on him that he mentioned abt it 13 yrs later when he attended a Sangh camp in 1947 Sept, in Delhi.
Ambedkar attended a sangh camp and asked were there any untouchables there and he was told they don't know abt any such untouchables and all of them in the camp are Hindus. He was touched and surprised.
The list continues, Jayprakash Narayan, Patel, Lalbahadur Shastri and even Nehru praised RSS. These are real incidents and I am not day dreaming as you do.
RE:RE:RE:hindu nazi
by Srinivas on Feb 18, 2007 07:48 AM Permalink
Observer, your observations are wrong.
We are posting about the past till the present. You have gone into the future. You could not find anything wrong in the present so you are expecting some bad things to happen in the future.
My friend as you are talking about RSS. You are forcing me to talk about SIMI. you might be knowing what the Police have said about the SIMI involvement in the Mumbai blasts.
Some of my friends are from RSS, they never talk against any faith as you are doing now.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:hindu nazi
by hello on Feb 18, 2007 07:58 AM Permalink
When RSS came into existence, the untouchability was untouchably gone. So, dont relate false theory.
RE:RE:hindu nazi
by John Fernandes on Feb 18, 2007 09:22 AM Permalink
yes RSS is " nazi " whereas al qaida lashkar e toiba , lashkar e jhangvi , harkatul mujahideen , harkat ul ansar , sipah e sahaba , ( damn how many do these guys have !!!) are all saints
Whats the point in living in past and discussing about Aurangzebs adventures and judging his cruelty or justness. He did what he did. Whatever he did was in a role as a monarch Tell me how will it change your personal life. Instead of bickering about the past, look towards what you can do to make a democratic country a better place to live in. Is someone telling you not 2 follow your religion. Do what you want to do but be compassionate and tolerant towards your fellow being showing some signs of human being. Otherwise whats the difference between an animal that follows other animals not knowing its own. How much would have india changed if events did not happen in history. A nation is built by the people living in it and not the other way. A developing Nation's so called educated people harboring racist attitude will only pull it backwards in the past. Grow up educated illiterates and save your energy in doing something good rather than tendering hatred and violence against others. Its a shame that a website like this puts up RACIST propoganda against a particluar community and is so IRRESPONSIBLE in the name of Journalism. They should brand themself as a fundamentalist Organization and put on the communal rhetoric which finds like minded perverts baying for innocent blood who are interested in digging the graves and counting the dead. PATHETIC!!!
RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by talk cool on Feb 18, 2007 08:21 AM Permalink
It is a fashion to brand who ever is talking some points which are siding Hindus as 'fundamentalists' and what not. Also, secular means just shut-up and give every ting to Muslims even if they throw stones from Mosques..just dont do any thing.
RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by ded de on Feb 18, 2007 06:33 AM Permalink
you can go on and act responsibly till every state of india becomes a kashmir and bengal.as i had written in this board before history teaches us that it can repeat . we could have forgot aurangzeb had his brand of fundamentalism and bigotry had died with time. but it is more powerful now. if aurangjeb had jai singh today we have these pseudo seculars.
RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by on Feb 18, 2007 06:55 AM Permalink
Dude, you got to get a life man. Don't know which school you got ur education from. We are democratic nation which calls itself secular Pseudo secular is an imagination of your mind WAKE Up. If you think hindu population is dwindling, gather fools like you and lay a seige on the Parliament and be a Dictator and we will do what you want. Until then put some head in ur posts and look if it even makes SENSE
RE:RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by ded de on Feb 18, 2007 07:22 AM Permalink
must be a commie or con-man who cannot even keep his language right. we have been under this dictatorship of gandhi-nehru family for a long time . its soon going to be over and india will have real democracy. we will then think what to do with this breed of people
RE:RE:RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by on Feb 18, 2007 07:31 AM Permalink
Good, when that happens we will see. By the way how much did we change in the Non Nehru - Gandhi Leadership(did u forget there was a break for 5 yrs). Everything will function as it is, you will get old and pass away harbouring these thoughts thats why i am telling enjoy your life and be good to people you might atleast be remembered for that.
RE:RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by Ramesh P on Feb 18, 2007 03:17 PM Permalink
1947 Now Muslim population- India 8% 14.8% Pakistan 72% 98.4% Bangla 70% 93%
RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by V H on Feb 18, 2007 07:04 AM Permalink
Ok fast forward to present. We have following problem fix it for me pretty please:
1) Growing Islamic madrassas 2) Growing Islamic terrorism 3) Growing economic gap between Muslims and non-muslims 4) Growing illiteracy among muslim women and muslims in general 5) Sharia law and common civil code implementation 6) Haj subsidy 7) Minoritism and vote bank politics 8) Growing seperatism in Kashmir and northeast 9) 2 crore muslim refugees from Bangladesh
RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by Indian Muslim on Feb 18, 2007 07:19 AM Permalink
1) So..what? where do hindus learn their religious beliefs? I would rather want to make the madrasa education more transparent and scientific. But am sure you dont want that.
2) Growing Islamic Terrorism ? So you think, people would just start from somewhere and become a terrorist ? For what exactly? for a no future for themselves,their families, and the whole community at large? Its detrimental!!!
3. Economic gap? Why does it existt? Take votes, promise schemes, Never implement them ? OR Despise them, create hatred and riots , sit and watch the muslim community go a further 10 years back??
AND THE BIGGEST FACTOR, THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES. CARELESS, LAZY, LOOKING FOR UNSKILLED JOBS,COMMIT CRIMES FOR A LIVING.
4.Growing illiteracy ??? MY MY , thats a lie! Not propotional with other communities, I would agree. But the illiteracy is not growing.
5. Uniform civil code, for sure. Not a Hindu common code.
6. Scrap Haj Subsidy(By the way, its Airline Discount, not that muslims are given cash, as you most despise about)
7. Why Minortyism and Vote Bank politics? Also include Majorityism ,Linguism, regionalism.
8. Growing ? So you mean to say our army is not doing enough? Honestly now!
9. 2 Crore? where did you get that figure from? You stood at the border counting? Have a life!
RE:RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by Ramesh P on Feb 18, 2007 03:09 PM Permalink
1. We learn from parents when we are kids and use our own judgement when we reach an age where we can take our decisions, no one brainwashes or forces us to pray everyday, forces us to do things which we don't like
2. You didn't answer the question, instead blabbered something
3. Economic gap exists because muslims are illiterates, don't take up education and you always find them as drivers, mechanics and other un-skilled menial jobs. Also as per Sachar report muslims outnumber hindus only in Jails
4. Don't count those who can read quran and write urdu ONLY
5. Unlike you stupids, we never had something like Sharia which tells us what to do and what not. Its left to our judgement and sanity. We never needed GOD or some mullah to come down and tell us what is good and what is BAD. BTW, if you don't know (not sure of muslims),every human has something called as soul/conscience and the laws are inherited from British and not hindu Dharmashastras. 6. Good u r not completely insane, ur brain is amazing it works even though its brainwashed
7. Yes, I agree with this and all this should stop.
8. Yes, they are not doing enough because of the stupid congress.
9. 3 crores is the number that Prof Rajan came up with and he has written a book "Changing Demographies of Indian Population" and he wrore about the grave situation in Bihar, WB, Assam etcc. By the way, he is a researcher and he did this research with our own Indian Govt's funding. The governor of Assam wrote to Shivraj Patil the then Home Minister that 7000 bangladeshis enter Lower Assam everyday. I don't think the governor needs to stand at the border and count, he will have enough ppl to do that for him
RE:RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by Ramesh P on Feb 18, 2007 03:14 PM Permalink
And why is that the hindus shops in Hyd are burnt when Saddam is bombed by US ?? Why are bandhs in Hyd if Afghanistan is bombed by US. Why stone pelting in Hyd when Lebanon is attacked by Israel. what have hindus in Hyd have got to do with all this ?? This just shows the muslim's true colors. All are morons - No exceptions.
RE:RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by ratnesh srivastav on Feb 18, 2007 07:51 AM Permalink
Very appropriate responses. I fully agree on most points except last one yes the figure is an estimate but it is a realistic estimate. We need to fence bangladeshi border LOC style and increase BSF presence.
RE:RE:Whats the point in living in past. Grow up Kids! and move on with life!
by on Feb 18, 2007 07:13 AM Permalink
1) Growing Islamic madrassas Ans Grow Ashrams 2) Growing Islamic terrorism Ans Educate people and be just 3) Growing economic gap between Muslims and non-muslims Ans) there hasnt been anyplace where all people have been economically same. The thought itself is baseless. Its same on both sides 4) Growing illiteracy among muslim women and muslims in general Ans)Bring awareness about education by educated people like you 5) Sharia law and common civil code implementation Ans) Basesless question. Elected bodies and courts make judgement in India 6) Haj subsidy Ans) Give subsidy to people visiting Hindu places of worship. 7) Minoritism and vote bank politics Ans) Ask a politician its his bread nd butter 8) Growing seperatism in Kashmir and northeast Ans) Tighten the border and prevent Infiltration and again be Just to people and show compassion 9) 2 crore muslim refugees from Bangladesh Ans) why are we paying BSF if they cannot do the job
