Having read a lot of messages about holocausts and killing of Hindus , Muslims etc this is what I have to say. Is our objective to kill and incite hatred against Muslims or to kill hatred itself? You cannot reverse history but you can learn from it. The idea of India is that all Indians can live together irrespective of religion. Maybe the idea of say Saudi Arabia is not that. That does not make them superior. The moment their oil runs out they will be living in caves. Indians will not be as long as we believe in developing our people..and our people cannot be developed by inciting hatred. It is obvious that the Arab countries have to go a long way before they become civilized..and by the way Indian Muslims are far more cultured than Arab Muslims..because they are Indian and subscribe to the idea that is India. Having said this it does not mean we are in a weaker position and can't confront these terrorists. Please remember that in kargil the idea that is India triumphed over the idea that is Pakistan. The inclusivist country won the exclusivist lost.
RE:The idea of India
by ded de on Feb 16, 2007 02:38 AM Permalink
I really dont understand why you think india has won. what is your benchmark. india has won if you compare it with pakistan and you are as blind as not to be able to see more. first go and visit the xtianised north-east and islamised kashmir. then go to countless villages and districts of india (particularly in kerala and bengal) where the demographic balance has turned upside down and see for yourself the future of india. a few years of double digit figure of some hypothetical statistic doesn't claim victory, when the very existence of the country under the present dispensation is in doubt.
RE:The idea of India
by hellboy on Feb 16, 2007 02:10 AM Permalink
Thats the point bro. History teaches .Nazis killed 6 mn jews but they dont bay for germans blood or try to wipe them off the earth. Its just that they keep reminding the world and themselves about it so that it doesnot repeat. They are a stronger country now. Hinduism once spread from afganistan to indonesia. Where does it stand now? marginalised in its own country and yet how many history books in our cirriculum tells us about it. It just teaches lies like moguls were seculars whereas the very moguls scripts praise their king for having having destroyed temples and killing kaffirs. We have to keep reminding ourselves that hinduism is a shrinking patch and we need to be vigilant or we wont have anywhere to run.
RE:RE:The idea of India
by ded de on Feb 16, 2007 02:28 AM Permalink
history teaches that it repeats . when everything that would cause it to repeat is just as good as when it was first made. the same traitors are ruling now ,with same greed and lust for power , with the same divisive tactics and on the same masses. unless people are educated about the consequences right now and thoughts of people like Rohit are changed for good time is not away when we are going to loose the very India whose cultural superiority that he boasts of and 100 years after another Rohit will be writing about the same thing sitting in a much reduced India if still any part of that would exist.such pacifist thoughts are nothing but a by-product of years of extreme social engineering by our clever secular politicians done by manipulating for years our education system, history records,media ,social and economic structures etc .
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Rohit on Feb 16, 2007 07:13 PM Permalink
You have missed the point. The ideas I am putting forward are not pacifist by any stretch of imagination. This is what I mean:- a)Ban all organizations using religion for politics. b)Remove religion from education--let religion be only a private matter c) Aggressively promote the idea of a secular society--and when I say secular I do not mean that we should pander to all religions equally but pander to no religion. d) Remove all caste/religion based discrimination and make economic deprivation as the only criteria for helping people.
RE:RE:The idea of India
by Rohit on Feb 16, 2007 07:00 PM Permalink
If you look at the emigration that has happened in the last 25 years you will realise that hinduism has actually spread far and wide in America,Europe and Africa. This has never happened in the past. So raising a bogey about Hinduism getting exterminated is nothing but an exaggeration. The Nazis did the same thing when they wanted to exterminate the Jews. It took a full generation to wipe out the destruction wrought by the Nazis. However our Government must certainly take a firm stance against Muslim, Christian or Hindu fundamentalism. That they do not do this for votes causes all the problems.
RE:The idea of India
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:18 AM Permalink
but indian muslims also need to understand this. They like pervez musharraf, the perpetrator of kargil, while denouncing our own leaders.
RE:RE:The idea of India
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 04:06 AM Permalink
I've never seen a muslim who appreciate Musharraf or any other Paki leader.... I've not seen any Muslim with a photo of Osama with them who treat him like a hero.... So why the discrimination...
Terrorism is a global menace & most countries have to deal with it... Even in India we had ULFA, NSCN-IM, LTTE, Naxals & other terror groups much before the Kashmiri terrorists...
All I see in this forum is hate & a will to exterminate muslims in India. Why 'coz fanatics in Pakistan are responsible to bomb, divide& break this nation... I ask why they need terrorists, ISI or fundamentalists to do this... they have succeded in poisoning the minds of people already... People in this country are more than willing to help them get rid of Muslims... its a tit for tat situation....
We read history & don't want to learn from it... We want only revenge... we believe that it will make situation better... Throughout history we see wave pattern where extremists reach a peak & then there is a downfall so great that these fanatics could never bounce back....
Nazi's tried it killing 6 million jews, Rawandan tried it killing 1 million Tutsi's, Taliban tried it.... have they succeded..
Ours is a developing country, we need better health, education, jobs & peace but we will not help each other reach these goals.. Politicians & fundamentalists will always play comman man... so should we blind ourself...
Who has the solution.... The discrimination is not in the society but in our minds... Unless muslims & hindus start trusting each other & help each other we cannot be the superpower we dream of....
Fundamentalist organisations should be banned for all communitites & we should start thinking for the country first followed by people & then religion.....
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Steve Andrews on Feb 16, 2007 08:17 AM Permalink
That is why we need to eradicate organizations such as SIMI and whatever else exists!! Now the problem is Muslims also don't want existence of any other relegion, which is bad on their side. All other relegions like Christians and Hindu they practice their relegion but don't other relegions let down. The aim of muslims is to convert all others to muslims, what they don't understand what will they achieve with that, you yourselves are fighting amongst yourselves..Shias and Sunnis. So basically muslims should leave ideology of converting others.
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 07:47 AM Permalink
False: The Asian Age had an article from seema mutapha saying 'Musharraf is a good man'. And Outlook carried photographs of AMU students proudly holding osama posters. When laloo got an osama lookalike, he was swarmed by muslim voters. . Yes, terrrorism is a global menace but it is only with muslims that they are fighting in the name of islam. All the other armed insurgencies are just that: insurgencies for control of land. They are not for control by a religion. . It is not a will to exterminate them. It is a will to have muslims realise that they have been following a wrong path that is causing harm to the whole world - and a will to have them convert back to an Indian way of life. On hatred, there's enough of it in the koran itself which actually explicitly calls for extermination of followers of other religions. . We don't want revenge. We want a peaceful future which is not possible if you guys carry on with your ways. So, you should convert to a peaceful religion - there are many. . Developing country - yes - but how will it develop if you want to control the content of education (cannot write the truth about islam and its conquests, books by taslima and rashdi are banned, sun revolves around the earth, earth is flat), health (population control cannot be practised), jobs (you want reservation in the army), peace (hahaha), ... How will we develop, man? . Yes, so remove the discrimination that the koran teaches you. How can we trust you if you keep bombing us every now and then? . As of now, fundamentalists exist in islam and christianity only - these are the two religions not ruled by science (truth) but by medieval notions - changeability is not allowed either. And SIMI HAS BEEN BANNED. So you should be happy for starters.
RE:RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Rohit on Feb 16, 2007 06:51 PM Permalink
You are right about Islam and Christianity being ruled by medieval notions. But you are missing the point. The point is to remove all religion from public life. This should we ban all pandits ,mullahs and priests who bring religion into the public domain. Let religion be only a private matter. No one should try and influence/control or even discuss religion in public life. Secularise totally. That cannot be done by practising reverse extremism on a hindu platform. But that can certainly be done by agressive secularism and putting all religious preachers out of business.
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 02:30 PM Permalink
I am not supporting SIMI or any fundamentalist organisation for that matter. If you take the pain in reading my earlier input on this forum thread you would know I had denounced SIMI.. The idea I am opposing is to paint all muslims as terrorists & Anti-India... If you start generalising the community for the evil deeds of handful then its not only wrong but you are instilling an insecurity..... The picture of AMU students does not say the whole community support them.... Its like saying all hindus are against Valentine's Day 'coz a handfull are opposing.... SIMI was generated in AMU & Outlook exposed it... how does this mean that the whole of muslim population endrose SIMI.....
I had said earlier whatever written in Koran is on a context just like any other religious book.... If you do not understand the context you cannot understand the meaning.... Like in Geeta If anybody just read that Krishna told Arjun to kill his relatives but there was a context for which it is valid...
Terrorism is the poison for the society & I don't mean just armed terrorism....
If the Supreme Court has banned SIMI then the ban is justified. Nothing is above the law of the land only fanatics will think otherwise. But wat i am not able to understand after going thru some of the messages n replies is why such a bad language is being used against Muslims in particular n Islam. I have seen Ppl on streets talking the way they r over here. Plz guys we r an educated lot and need to respect other religions and there Prophets even if it my religion or anybody else's Saif
RE:Message to all the readers
by vijay parasar on Feb 16, 2007 01:27 AM Permalink
why didn't u react when M F Hussein painted Indian godessess nude. U with like minded group should have have come out on the sts. and should have reacted with hindus.
RE:Message to all the readers
by jayan Narayanan on Feb 16, 2007 04:08 AM Permalink
you people talk great and there are some political parties like samajwadi, congress, dmk etc to support to get some political milage, but how many muslims honestly love this great country, how many muslims want dawood ibrahim to be brought back to India and punish, how many want salman to be punished?
how can some one love this country who is not willing to sing vande mataram at least once in a year.
RE:RE:Message to all the readers
by shantanu mukherjee on Feb 16, 2007 04:28 AM Permalink
How many muslims were quizzed if dawood needs to be brought back, how many muslims were asked if they even care what happens to salman khan. political parties target the poor and illeterate population who have nothing to cling on but religion.And guess what these parties win, do you guys really think that the govt. gives a damn about religious minorities or majorities, they do a year before the polls. Banning SIMI is not a hindu muslim turnmoil, but its about nationalism. When india wins cricket matches, hindus and muslims take equal pride. When sania mirza does well hindus take pride, and that is because all the sports persons represent the the country. We believe or rather the media has made us believe that we will be a super power by 2010 or maybe 2020, but super power is not having 1 ambani and 1 Tata. Super power is growing toghther as a nation. And growing toghether means to shed casteist, linguistic and fascist barriers. Whenever it comes an issue like Afzal or SIMI, forums like this get flooded with hate mails. I don't understand this, we as a country need to prosper or we as a country need to be bothered about who is getting what. I think its time that we grow up and understand that the holy books frm all religions are books and we are humans and it is important that alongwith keepin the dignity of our religious beliefs we put forth humanity and nationalism before everything else.
RE:RE:RE:Message to all the readers
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 07:53 AM Permalink
and how do you suggest we prosper? by giving reservations to muslims in the army? or by funding more haj subsidies with money from our temples? This is not about hatred. you media-educated guys take any attempt to educate the muslims as hatred. If you are so much in love, go and teach them that. They are living in a hindu majority country with equal rights (in fact, more than that). if we really hated them, would that have been so? however, they are taking advantage and have started organisations like simi so that they can actually get more than equal rights.
RE:RE:RE:Message to all the readers
by Arvinder Paul on Feb 16, 2007 05:32 AM Permalink
Very well said...hit the nail on the head !!! Hope we have a majority of people thinking like u !
RE:RE:RE:Message to all the readers
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 07:54 AM Permalink
And why did these muslims not protest when salman claimed he was being targetted for being muslim? Why did aamir khan get support when he took a stance against development???
RE:Message to all the readers
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:27 AM Permalink
I agree with you on the language thing. However, I cannot respect a person just because you respect him. E.g., I cannot respect musharraf and osama and their likes although they may have followers. The distinguishing thing should be right and wrong (same as al halaal and al haraam) but the halaal and haraam have to be decided on righteousness and not on who belongs to which religion. If certain things are fundamentally wrong, they should be opposed. The opposition to muslims is against their beliefs and fundamentals and harmful actions arising out of those, not against the people.
It's really sad to see politicians like Mulayam Sing Yadav and other Pseudo secular leaders trying to defend SIMI when it was banned. I think they should immediately apologise for defending SIMI and should be arrested for sympathising with SIMI. These Pseudo Seculars are supporting terrorists in the name of minority appeasement. It's high time such people are thrown out of power. Also, there is no regard for SUpreme court verdict these days. DID YOU FORGET AFZAL HANGING?!!! Traitors are pampered in this country. SHAME on Pseudo Seculars SHAME SHAME SHAME!!
RE:Sad state of affairs in INDIA
by RAJAT GUPTA on Feb 16, 2007 01:08 AM Permalink
Well said Mr. Patil, thankz for reminding people abt how a another Traitor and Terriost(AFJAL) is enjoying the gift of life even after taking life of others.
Is Jyoti Da ghas a reply? Is Mrs. Sonia Gandhi has a reply? or any congree men or Communist has a reply??? If there is no east Bengal than why we call Bengal as "WEST Bengal" ???????????????
Hi All, After Going thru some of the comments posted i wonder are they being posted by educated people or what. Supereme Court has Banned SIMI and there must be enough evidance for it being involed in illeagle activities otherwise people sitting in such high positions attracting so much media amd public attention will not ban it just like that. More over there are people crying to ban some other outfits as well, i will like to ask them is there enough evidance avialable for that, also people who talk abt Ayodhya please go and visit mathura to see how a mosque is construed over a temple and then speak these rubbish words. Hindu`s have always tryed to live in peace withe everyone and example of that is a Muslim President of Republic of India and all Hindu`s love for sure as he is a ture Patriot Indian First and then a Muslim and he is not the only one earlier he we had Shri. Zakir Hussain, can u ever imagina Hindu President in Pakistan or other Islamic Country? Its not a Question of Religion its about love and Loyality for your Homeland nothing else is expected from anyone by all patiots.
RE:SIMI
by Dhiman Mohajan on Feb 16, 2007 12:51 AM Permalink
Because in Islamic relegion apart from Muslims , other religious people are 'Kafer' and it is their holy duty to kill ' Kafer'
RE:RE:SIMI
by Imran Parihar on Feb 16, 2007 02:52 AM Permalink
I dont think anyone is getting offended by the ban on SIMI. Attacking Islam and its followers is what is offending most of the population. Mr. Mohajan, I cannot ask you to pick up a book on Islam to understand the term "Kafir" (you will get offended I assume), its relevance to the present day but would encourage you to google it and hopefully it will dispense your concerns.
RE:RE:RE:SIMI
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:34 AM Permalink
or visit faithfreedom.org and it will allay all concerns. 'Kafirs' are those who are NOT ahl-i-kitab (jews, muslims and christians have biblical beliefs, so they are people of the book). This is the traditional approach and islam has forbidden ANY change to this approach. While non-muslims among the ahl-i-kitaab can pay jizya and live subordinately, killing them is not mandated (until a strong circumstance arises). Kafirs, on the other hand, cannot be asked to pay jizya. They have to convert or get killed.
RE:RE:RE:RE:SIMI
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 04:28 AM Permalink
faithfreedom.com is a zionist propaganda website... Kafir means non-believer... its the same as nastik in hindu religion... so you should not be offended by the word.... its not a slang.....
about that site.. its a propaganda to dupe people... I will give you one example... If you read just one sentence of geeta Krishna tells Arjun to kill his relatives but there is a context for which its valid...
Likewise whatever is written in Koran is on specific context.... Unless you know the context you cannot say that Koran simply tells to kill non-believers....
So why not get an English translated version of Koran & find out why such thing is written & for what context....
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:SIMI
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 03:11 PM Permalink
""do your work; don't think about the outcome."""
This is what fundamentalists in Islam & every other religion use to justify terror... You said this yourself... Yes muslims are used by fundamentalists but does this include all muslims... Fundamentalist use people in all & every religion though differently....
If you have preoccupied yourself then no point arguing.... Do you know Arabic... then you would know what Kafir really means. Its an arabic word for non-believer.. If what you had said about death penalty by state for being a Kafir is true then we would have known it in todays world... don't you think so... What you are saying is not practiced in any country on a mass level.. It might be ~1400 years ago but not now.....its the handiwork of terrorists who have no moral values...
Ali Sina is also preoccupied by what was written 1400 years ago for the contexts valid at that time.... People had tried arguing with Ali Sina but he is preoccupied like most in this forum. he has to run the propaganda..
Islam is changing though very slowly.. but preoccupation like yours will only instill insecurity... What is highlighted is not practiced by most muslims but a handfull... Maniacs are found in every religion... otherwise Hindu fundamentalists would not resist Valentine's Day....
Terrorists are brainwashed all over the world.... With muslim terrorist people have used religion to brainwash... but how many Indian muslim endrose terrorist groups... Hell how many know the names of leaders of these terrorist group....
So what is practiced by muslims is not what was written for no reason... I do agree that most muslims also don't know the context's of Koran... This is where education comes in....
To enlighten you only ~6% of muslim children go to madarsa... people are trying... You cannot expect change overnight.... But don't loose faith still in common Indian Muslim for Paki propaganda...
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:SIMI
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 08:15 AM Permalink
1. There are no punishments for being a nastik in hindootwa. 2. There is punishment for being a non-believer in allah in islam - the punishment is death. 3. A kafir is not the same as a non-believer. Traditionally, it is one who believes in worshipping any object like a stone or plants. 4. Ali Sina has challenged that he would take the content OFF_SITE if proved wrong. If you think it is a dupe, prove it and get the site taken off the web. Can you give ONE example of where the site is false? 5. The problem with English translated versions is that they mellow the harshness and hatred of the original. 6. Contexts - which context is used to teach terrorists? Are they taught the contexts before sending them to bomb our people? Krshna does not tell Arjuna to kill his relatives. When Arjuna seems ill-prepared to kill the enemies (who happen to be relatives in this case), Krshna merely advises him to recognise enemies as enemies and not as relatives - means, do your work; don't think about the outcome. I know that the order of 'kill the kafirs' has come in wartime. But, mind you, unlike Krshna, mohammed says 'Kill the kafirs wherever you find them'. He does not say 'kill your enemies'. Krshna had not ordered to kill Kauravas and their kin. In fact, he had not ordered to kill at all. He had advised Arjuna to NOT refrain from fighting the enemy because there, on the battlefield, Arjuna was fighting for a the right and whoever fought him was to be fought. However, mohammed makes a clear distinction between muslims and kafirs (it is not the same as a distinction between right and wrong). He also sent the armies to kill innocent civilians. He also took their wives and other womenfolk as slaves and slept with them, often on the same night. Later, he also attacked a jewish tribe which had a no attack pact with him... The list goes on. Stop feeling inferior. Realise that you have been following a wrong path and convert. We do not have anything against you as a person. No need to defend the wrong principles of a barbaric religion.
RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by vijay parasar on Feb 16, 2007 01:20 AM Permalink
Film Gaddar is banned in Pakistan and not single muslim in India liked the movie
RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by sanjay s on Feb 16, 2007 04:49 AM Permalink
hey this has caused a controversy !!! I have the best of muslim friends !!! and i celebrate EID and Diwali with them!!! and it has never been a topic of controversy between us!!! All I just want is plz stop saying " comon wasim bhai " when India is playing against pakistan ...sitting infornt of a TV right under shyama prasad mukherjee chawk udaipur raj!!!! I will denfinitely not take it as a joke!!! and while pakistani muslims say "man I wish pakistan had made a space programme" and Indian muslims saying "Pakistan already has a space shuttle but just hiding it" ...cmon my muslim frnds stop realting to religion!!! stop hating vande mataram because your holy book says do not praise anyone other han allah!!!!we have a duty towards our motherland!!!!
RE:RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Indian on Feb 16, 2007 08:00 AM Permalink
What u are trying Sanjay is probabaly the toughest thing in this world, that is, asking a muslim to respect other religion. I stay in a country far away from India, I am a student and I have a few muslim friends(?) here . I have never witnessed any muslim condemning terrorism, inspite they will shout about what antisocialism others (religions) are creating Like US in Iraq, or Hindus in Gujrat, LTTEs and etc. They are all well educated have common senses fully developed but never ever they will say that we don't support muslim extremism. I don't know what Holy Quoran teaches them, but i feel pity on them, they all need rehabilitation. Except a few and very micro few of them are up against extremism (rediff messages) but the rest are really pathetic. May Mohammed bless them.
RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Imran Parihar on Feb 16, 2007 12:45 AM Permalink
Its a shame you didn't do anything about that message. I would have walked into the nearest police station and registered an FIR. The law would take its course and you would have done your duty as a citizen of India. Any person nourishing such anti-India views is more than welcome to leave this country, we'll probably have them escorted out of here.
RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by sanjay s on Feb 16, 2007 12:56 AM Permalink
Buddy I was just 10 years old.But I do remember that!
RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Haresh G. jagtiani on Feb 16, 2007 01:06 AM Permalink
God Bless our India and you. I am sure our muslim brothers in india do not share thought with simi. our brothers are innocent and so as well as our muslim brothers in pakistan. boundary lines do not and cannot divide love and humanity. they are only a few on both sides of the border trying to divide and create rift. what is the difference between a hindu or a muslim? for God sake, can anybody define/explain? May better sense prevail and God bless all.
RE:RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:38 AM Permalink
yaar jagtiani, tumhen abhee jagat ke baare men bahut kuchh seekhnaa hai. Please be informed about beliefs (I am not talking about rituals) and their differences. If there is no difference, why is it that all terrorists are muslims? Why aren't hindus forming terrorist organisations in other countries in the world, although they ARE racially mistreated in some of them??? Because hindus are inherently peace-loving. That's the difference. What you are saying here is the hindu way of thinking. but do the followers of biblical religions think in the same manner?
RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:50 AM Permalink
And why didn't so many of the muslim students file that FIR? The hindus may do it out of ear in a muslim majority area. But why did the muslims not file the FIR?
RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:47 AM Permalink
First, the police will not take an FIR. If one pressurises them, the police will arrest the complainant itself and put the charges on them. Even if the police take the FIR and investigate, how will they find out who wrote something on a wall? The pro-arabia media will say it is a BJP conspiracy to malign the name of muslims. The incident will never be reported in its actuality. People will be asked to SMS yes or no to if BJP is responsible - and a few idealistic fools will answer Yes. Add this to the media's own answers of Yes and 85% of the population will be shown to think 'Yes'. Meanwhile, muslims will start a riot somewhere and the media will get busy reporting against gujarat CM and asking muslims how they feel in modern India? Whether they feel marginalised or not (next day's poll question). In order to control the situation, the congress and mulayam govts will put the areas under curfew (by this time, many hindus will have been killed, of course) and get the wall painted with special funds of say, 1 crore rupees, of which 100 rupees will go to the painting and the rest to simi. That way, it is good that such things are not reported. Cover up operations will start
RE:RE:graffiti on a wall at Muslim aligarh university!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 04:08 AM Permalink
And WHY DID SOMEONE REPORT ABUSE ON THE ABOVE MESSAGE??? WHAT IS ABUSIVE IN REPORTING TRUTH? Tum log ek news site par comment naheen jhel sakte, FIR kyaa jheloge? Then you'll claim that the police is not muslim, so they are oppressing muslims. Then you'll ask for resevations in the police force.
SIMI is a banned organisation by orders of the SC...I support that strongly. But I am not here to comment on that. I am here because I felt very strongly that I should convey my feelings because I see so much hatred here.
I am a muslim and an ex-army captain. I gave a lot of my youth to serve the country. I was a part of the two biggest operations 'Op Vijay and Op Parakram'. What I am really sad to see here is that people have been writing stuff they dont have knowledge about and mostly based on hearsay or media reports. I dont say that all the facts stated are wrong but the underlying sentiments are somewhat shocking for a person like me who can vouch here that I have been more patriotic than anyone I have met till now. Being patriotic doesnt mean that I only shout on the top of my voice that I am an Indian. Being patriotic means I give my best to my country in whatever I do. Let me tell you friends, everything is not as it seems ...there is a lot of depth to issues and one must read a lot..books are great source of information. i would not recommend the (24 hr) TV media which seems to be influencing the youngsters thoughts these days. Please have a mind of your own and think deeper.
One of the main reasons why muslims in India are easily targetted by terrorists and anti-social elements is the poor economic conditions.A vast majority of 13.4 % muslims in India are mostly living below the poverty line and in slums...areas where you normally do not wish to go or even see. It provides easy hiding places to anti-social elements, gives scope to the ISI to recruit disillusioned muslim youth for subversive activities. let me give you an example of the impact of poverty---many unemployed hindu youth have been apprehended working for Lashkar-E-Toiba in J&K. You can verify the above fact. Poverty cuts across religion. Also, the country today is doing very well one one hand economically but if you see the divide caused across religious , castes and class lines...things are deteriorating. My friends...if you are really feel deeply for the country, try to spread a sense of trust and harmony and happiness among all classes of people. Think of yourself ..first as a human being with a brain and a heart, then Indian and then of any religion whatsoever. Only the strong message of patriotism (not rhetoric & dialogues but real dedication to work), love and brotherhood can heal this country. Please be happy and work towards peace. And last but not the least, condemn all anti-national, anti-social and anti-humanity acts/ people in the same breath!! "Unaan Misr Rome sab mit gaye jahan se, Kuch baat hai ki hasti mit tee nahi humari". Jai Hind!!
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Radha Vasan on Feb 16, 2007 12:50 AM Permalink
Well I am Dr. Radha Vasan, from the Indian army also, (AMC), Major, now retd. Let me tell you that 'muslims' are targetted because they do not want to conform to the general consensus in the country for anything, be it in cricket - they openly support Pakistan, be it in religion - they openly defy all bans imposed, be it in population control - they insist on following their religion against a nation's dictats, be it in education - they insist on madrasas, as against taking advantage of the large amounts of reservation kept aside for them in every form of education, in every level of education, in every stage of education!!! Even us hindus, the forward community, do not get so many facilities as the muslims do. Then how do you explain, what you yourself have said - poor economic conditions,below the povery line..........etc etc.
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Haresh G. jagtiani on Feb 16, 2007 01:20 AM Permalink
I had gone to karachi from egypt, 20 years ago, and without a visa or a transit visa, by egyptair. The immigration officer in karachi as soon as they saw my Indian Passport, accorded me with very kind istiqbal and welcome, why? God has made all humans alike and it is only we that have created the divide in several ways. If one goes to a remote part of any state in a village and meets a muslim villager, I do not think that that person is hating India and siding any religion/country. Our human lives are a gift of God so that in this human form, God has given us the great oppotunity to reform ourselves and escape the cycle of life and death. Please love humanity. God bless you.
RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:57 AM Permalink
are yaar, THAT is the difference, boss. we, being hindus, are peaceful - so they are not threatened by us.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:58 AM Permalink
and one of my uncles went to kuwait - even there, in a muslim country, the indians were guided more nobly while paki and bdeshis were searched thoroughly and separately. So, if even mulsim countries have made such decisions, there MUST be some logic to it, no?
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by shakil ahmed on Feb 16, 2007 01:46 PM Permalink
Sir, With due regard, I would like put a perspective in front of you which you may not be knowing (perhaps ..being in the AMC). Why I said it is easy targetting poor Indian muslims is because someone is out there scouting for them. The ISI....Pakistan started the 'Op Topaz' in the eighties in which the ISI spread through the border villages and the poor muslims areas and recruited agents by giving them large sums of money. The fact is that a lot of disillusionment is there in the lower strata of the community. And therefore it is easy to target them. However...as pointed out by someone..I am in no way justifying anything because of poverty. BUT...a reason is a reason and we have to look at it objectively. Your comments that muslims enjoy reservations in education is wrong. Secondly, I agree with you that the muslims are locked in a very paradoxical situation.. the mullas do not let them get educated in the mainstream and the politicians use them as a vote bank.
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by ded de on Feb 16, 2007 01:03 AM Permalink
I am convinced that people like you and imran are patriotic whose forefathers have continued to live in this country out of genuine love and affection. I too know muslims who would would enjoy indias victories just as we do(say it,cricket match test invented by a brit. politician). but hindus are not the cause of this hatred that you despise in your messages. as educated muslims you should try to see where the problem lies instead of blaming the hindus. try to find out what really the muslim masses in general does coupled with the tainted history, which is creating this rift.shouldn't you own your responsibility for the holocausts ,shouldn't you stop the practises that offend hindus(do you need to know what are they in case you are naive), shouldn't you stop linking yourself with the greater international muslim brotherhood and only shrink your identity as indian muslim . let the readers know the feelings of you educated and patriotic muslims on the issues i mentioned.
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by vijay rk on Feb 16, 2007 08:07 AM Permalink
I have been hearing all seculars and moderate muslims shouting at the top of their megaphoes that poverty is the cause for terrorism. But why does this logic not apply to other communities? Do u start killing people because u r poor? How come a billionaire osama bin laden is a terrorist? How come LSE pass out mohammad atta blew himself up? There is something fundamentaly wrong with those islamic scriptures.. Unless u go back and disown them and start looking at others religionists not as kafirs (whom thou shall not suffer to live--i.e kill) but as human beings, others will be forced to take up weapons in their defence.And the clash of civilizations is no more a theory now...
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 03:22 PM Permalink
weapons against Osama & Md. Atta or the whole of indian muslims....
RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 03:33 PM Permalink
You are mixing world issues with muslim perspective in India... I have one question why do you believe terrorists when they use religion as their weapon... why not denounce it...
How many Indian muslims endorse terrorist outfits.. So will you think not to generalise indin muslims... Indian muslim enjoy most freedom in India then in any other muslim dominated country & people are slowly accepting this but this change will not be visible soon..
So why such discrimination against the whole community....
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Dhiman Mohajan on Feb 16, 2007 01:04 AM Permalink
Your message is good . I partly agree with you that poverty has a role to play for Terrorist. But while supporting terrirst why muslims do not think about their own country atfirst. I belive that you and lots of muslims truely love India but there are lots of Indian Muslims support Pakistan. Religion is their main thing not patriotism. I am sorry if I hart you. But this is true that all over world Muslims support killing of other belivers. That's why there is no peace in any Muslim or Muslim major country. Atfirst Muslims need to be tolerant and peace loving and should respect other religion. And last but not least all the Hindus and Muslims should think that they are Indian atfirst . Jai Hind.
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 04:06 AM Permalink
I do not agree that poverty has a bearing on terrorism. If that were the case, most terrorism would have emanated from Africa, where conditions are much worse than the slums of India. Instead, terrorism emanates from oil-rich gulf countries.
RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 04:55 AM Permalink
Poverty & low education has everything to do with it... For your information most of the countries in Africa are dealing with civil war.... We don't know about this 'coz nobody cares about Africa...
If people are not dieing 'coz of war then there is hunger, poverty & AIDS killing them... In the last 50 years more people have died in Africa due to secreterian violence then in any other part of the world... but there is no oil so nobody is interested in Africa.... There are more child soldiers in Africa then any other part of world....
I will give you one example in 1994 10 lakh tutsi people were killed in Rawanda alone... but we will not label it as terrorism... 'coz we are preoccupied...
We hear about muslim atrocities 'coz other killings are left out... & we all know west's love for oil.. If there would not be oil in middle-east then no body would be interested in muslim countries....
But lets discuss India only & not the world...We tell about muslim appeasement & we ignore the reservation provided by the same politicians to a specific community since independence, I am not asking for reservation but want to tell people hindu's are not left out in the whole appeasement policy...
RE:RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 08:26 AM Permalink
I agree that hindus are not left out of reservation. In fact, i like it that you do not want reservation. However, saying that 'hindus are given reservation' is wrong. certain castes are given reservation and it is actually an affront to hinduism. . Africa - civil war is not the same as terrorism. We are talking of terrorism. I know that 1 million tutsis were killed. I know that there is sectarian violence (and of late, islamic violence, too, if you have heard of somalia and ethiopia). But that is not mandated by religion. in islam's case, the terrorism is not a tribalism. It is a religion-inspired terrorism.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 03:19 PM Permalink
But you cannot deny that it is the hindu community who is getting the reservation.. Is it not appeasement....
Now you are justifying terrorism with Africa... Killing people for ones own cause is terorism. reason might be different... You cannot differentiate sectarian violence & terrorism... People in Africa were killed in the same faith..
The point I am against is don't paint All Indian muslims as endorsers of terrorism....
Muslims do need education & social acceptation without discrimination.. We are also thinking for this country...
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 04:06 AM Permalink
and these SIMI guys are not POOR.
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by sanjay s on Feb 16, 2007 12:51 AM Permalink
I agree. you have a point here.But it also hurts me ...when a class six muslim student argues the fact that pakistan is smaller in size.where does a 11 year old kind get thyat feeling from?
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:53 AM Permalink
boss, it is this kind of cover-up writing that we guys hate. when 40% of india is under poverty line, as many as (42.4 - 13.4) = 29 crore hindu population is under the poverty line and living in slums where you won't want to go. Then how come they are not becoming terrorists???
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by pSSn hOMMe on Feb 16, 2007 02:13 PM Permalink
With due regard, I would like put a perspective in front of you which you may not be knowing What I meant was that it is easy targetting poor Indian muslims is because someone is out there scouting for them. The ISI....Pakistan started the 'Op Topaz' in the eighties in which the ISI spread through the border villages and the poor muslims areas and recruited agents by giving them large sums of money. The fact is that a lot of disillusionment is already there in the lower strata of the community makes it a bigger problem. And therefore it is easy to target them. However...as pointed out by someone..I am in no way justifying anything because of poverty. BUT...a reason is a reason and we have to look at it objectively. As I have written and you missed it. In J&K, many hindu militants working for L-e-T were arrested. You can verify the facts. But again, please do not get me wrong..I dont mean that anyone who is poor can become a terrorist or is becoming one. I mean that the chances of a poor Indian muslim of being recruited by ISI is more since the ISI is looking for them and is paying money. Anyway,
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by vijay parasar on Feb 16, 2007 01:03 AM Permalink
I agree with u but why can't u gaive this lessons to Sonia gandhi, Manmohan singh,Kapil Sibbal &....................................... ..................................... and so on. What they want to prove by appessing the muslim that hindu will shut their eyes /ears and tolerate their interim decisions. U come forward with ur community people (not as a political leader ,but a elder brother revolt againt these goons who have spoild the peace and harmony of the country.
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Imran Parihar on Feb 16, 2007 12:42 AM Permalink
Your message is very well written sir, I thank you for translating your feelings into the above words. I think you have skillfully summarised what any ordinary Indian Muslim feels today. Its sad to see none of our patriotic friends who spill hatred in the name of religion on this forum have the courage to accept or acknowledge your words.
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Ritul Shah on Feb 16, 2007 12:51 AM Permalink
The biggest enemy of un-educated blue collar muslims in india are the muslim leaders and mullas. They want them to produce more kids to make them a vote bank and do not want them to really study and move ahead.
RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:54 AM Permalink
And when was there poverty in J&K, mind you? Even today, it's GDP is above the national average.
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Goutam Bhattacharjee on Feb 16, 2007 05:55 AM Permalink
'Liberal' muslims like Mazhab Nahi Sikhata are actually making the Hindus weak at heart. These muslims are small in number and are unable to do anything constructive to stop the actions of subversive organizations like SIMI or Jamat-ulema-hind. But on the contrary, by posting their 'liberal' views on the forum, they are creating confusion among Hindus: whether we should treat Islam as a threat, or as a friend. Moreover, there is no easy way to verify the authenticity of their liberal claims or contribution towards the country. It is quite possible that these supposedly 'liberal' views are also part of a greater agenda: blackmail the Hindus emotionally and not allow them to unite together. So my Hindu friends, please gaurd against these so-called moderate muslims. The bottomline is, Muslims have close to 60 countries to live, where Hindus have only 1. This is OUR homeland and if we lose it, we will have no place to live.
RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by pSSn hOMMe on Feb 16, 2007 02:22 PM Permalink
Dear Goutam, I seriously did not know whether or not to laugh when I read your message. Without any prejudice to your intelligence, I empathize that you are free to feel as you did. However, I must make it clear , at least to you, that I do not have any hidden agenda. And let me tell you another thing very very clearly , Mr Goutam, this country belongs to me and my generations to come and I also firmly believe that the amount of patriotism I carry for this country, you can only imagine (maybe not)! Now, having said that, I have a sincere request. Do not make such funny looking yet misguiding comments. They are not in the interest of any Indian. Neither Hindu nor Muslim. Muslims have 60 countries to live in..Agreed, BUT Indians(not hindus, muslims, sikhs or isaaai's)live only in India.
RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 08:34 AM Permalink
I am aware of it - I have had arguments with so many muslims - moderate, liberal and educated, etc, - and it has all boiled down to the finale that everything in the koran is right and not changeable. They want peace when muslims are killed but not otherwise. They want social justice when muslims are poor but when they have money, they'll buy AK47s with it. They have this tendency to participate in such message boards wherever anything remotely related to islam is discussed. You will not find such mass participation when serious issues are discussed. And they will almost ALWAYS (very few exceptions and I am proud of those exceptions) DEFEND the wrong way. Their whole purpose of 'discussion' is to have others believe in what they are saying.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 08:36 AM Permalink
And they will participate more when the discussion is on iraq and palestine and Bush but not when we are talking issues back here.
RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by Indian on Feb 16, 2007 08:06 AM Permalink
Well said Gautam. These crazy people are contaminating the whole world. If Mohammed can have sex with his 9 yr old wife ( child abuse !!!) then his pupils will be nothing better. I am sorry , this statment is not meant for the Good Indian muslims.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 03:45 PM Permalink
This propaganda is not verified. There is no factual proof for this allegation.. Mohammed did married a young girl but her age is debatable.... nobody can said certain about her age... Most muslim women in that era were married after the age of 14-15.. Its practiced in India also in other religions as well.... Child Marriage's in India is not a myth.... Also child abuse (which is not documented in India as well) but can we say for sure that there is no underage child abuse in India even though child marriage is a reality for ages in India. Does only muslims promote it...
RE:RE:Mazhab Nahi Sikhata , Aapas mein Bair Rakhna : Hindi Hain Hum, Watan hai Hindustan Humara!!
by pSSn hOMMe on Feb 16, 2007 02:00 PM Permalink
Dear Pradip, I had a mind and I decided to give my youth for my army, my country. I do not know you but would like to know what have you done for the country? I do not know why you felt that I was justifying anything at all by giving poverty as a reason for the uneducated & disillusioned muslim youth to join the terrorists. It is a reason since proven and by shutting our eyes and looking the other way, it is not going to change. Anyway, I do not justify inhumanity. But I agree with you that that Islam needs to modernise ...but the way to that is proper normal education and not madrassas where the interpretation is done in the same medieval mindset. Let me give you an example...the reason why i am writing this stuff is because my parents were able to give me some normal mainstream education and I grew up not in a muslim ghetto but in a cosmopolitan atmosphere. Economic growth will not only get more people out of the madrassas but will also get them to the main stream. I know you guys feel that muslims are being given a lot by the govt but if you kindly look around you, you will find that it is mostly rhetoric by politicians and for votes and haj subsidy doesn't contribute anything towards education. I would support the whole haj subsidy to be given for primary education.
