Pakistan and Musarraf .. Man known to ditch everyone .. Not Indians only ,,, 80%Pakistani's Amercans, Bristish and everyone ...and he thinks he has credibilty to put proposals to trust him ..Who can trust you ... Does you wife trust you ...You are made for trust ..Thinks where are you today and how are you here today ..then you will get the answer .. Land belongs to India ..weather we leave it or sit on it ..who the are you give any kind of comments
Pak says it will not occupy Siachen if India pulls out??! This first sentence itself doesn%u2019t make sense to me?! Siachen glacier is in India, so whether we have our army there or not shouldn't effect pak's actions!
We will place our army anywhere in India we please! I don%u2019t understand that how can India even agree to such bizarre agreement from Pakistan.
I don%u2019t have anything against pak, but they just sometimes think too smart of themselves!!
Pak says it will not occupy Siachen if India pulls out??! This first sentence itself doesn%u2019t make sense to me?! Siachen glacier is in India, so whether we have our army there or not shouldn't effect pak's actions!
We will place our army anywhere in India we please! I don%u2019t understand that how can India even agree to such bizarre agreement from Pakistan.
I don%u2019t have anything against pak, but they just sometimes think too smart of themselves!!
I realize a lot of people are upset because of prior incidences, particularly the Kargil war. Rest assured, i personally ascribe to the theory that the best predictor of the future is the past. However, we have to realize a few things here.
1. We have to make peace with Pakistan. Pak has been a burden to us for 60 years now. And if we have to make a few concessions here and there then so be it. We have more pressing concerns. Futhermore, we have to see Pakistan's point of view on this too. Making peace with us and riding the coat tails of our economic success is integral to their survival of the near future. If they don't do this now, they are finished. Musharraf himself has realized that fighting India is a lost cause especially as we get more powerful by the day.
2. Let us not confuse compromise with complacency. Even if we demilitarize Siachen, we better keep a very close watch with our satellites, UAVs and recon aircrafts. We see so much as a twitch on the other side we should move in lock stock and gunbarrell. And I hope we stay vigilant. That imho is the most important lesson we should learn from the Kargil war. Let us not get caught napping, and this time around if we do have to seek a military solution, it should be done with the assistance of the airforce and laser guided technology from the get go so as to minimize our casualty rate.
But for now, I say we put our pride aside and do what is best for the country as a whole.
RE:Objectivity
by Setu Madhavan on Feb 09, 2007 11:00 PM Permalink
Aditya, you say 'we have to make peace with Pakistan' - that unwittingly gives away 'our subservience' to Pakistan. Remember 'they should also feel the need to make peace' with India.
They only evidence of sincerity from pakistan would be something 'concrete' in return. I am sorry kind words like 'we shall live happily ever after' make good fairy tales - just not in the context of Pakistan's intentions!
So how about getting them to move things on the ground - instead of just their tongues. Since our netas, babus and even thinkers like you who believe in 'give and give' and then use satellites to see how good pakistanis are, I have a few suggestions to make that we must GET from Pakistan before we GIVE an inch:
1. How about 'Handin over Dawood Ibrahim'! If we were not 'give and give rashtra' but the 'take and take' USA, they would bomb first and talk later.
2. How about Demolishing terrorist camps in POK. This is where we should use our Satellites pictures to get pakistan - show them the POK terrorist training camps (that Mushy calls 'Strategic assets of Pakistan') and tell them that till we are able to get pictures of demolished camps from our Satellites we will not pull one Jawan from Siachen. This is a better approach than running to USA and crying with them Satellite images in hand. After they demolish the camps any withdrawal from Siachen is not going to be unilateral, but conditional on NO Terror training camp ever coming up anywhere on Pakistan soil. The day we see any terror training in Pakistan is going to be the day we go back to Siachen - has to be an iron clad clause in Siachen. This way those Pakis have something to lose by training terrrorists.
3. How about returning our soliders captured during 1971 wars that are still languishing in Pakistan prisons. Remember because of the 'We have to make peace with Pakistan' mentality we gave away 93000 Pakistan soldiers without getting one in return in 1971.
4. Because Pakistan is a histroy sheeter, it can not be trusted. There fore using some diplomacy to get its big brothers like US to stake their reputations as well. Get an assurance that for India's kindness ' of getting to vacate' Siachen ( even after Pakisatn has agreed to our conditions) we want a commitment from Nations giving aid / arms to Pakis, that any future trangression into Siachen or any support to terrorism in any form - should necesarily stop the aid to pakistan from USA / Japan and other nations. This serves three important purposes - A. Greater leverage, or pressure over, pakistan to honor its commitments. B. We have greater bargaining power over those countries like US / Japan in future. C. More importantly, when it is time to hit back at Pak position in Siachen (Kargil2) or on terror camps in POK, these other countries will not be able to say NO to India.
It is indeed regrettable that the top Netas - Pradhan Mantriji and Raksha Mantriji included - have their Pugdis and Lungis tied into a collective knot over the "gross indiscipline" of the Army, relying solely on the version of the Kolkata cops.
The media, as always, have declared the Army officers GUILTY as charged. They have also pre-empted the need to have a victim, or even her statement - and have gone ahead and declared the Army jawans GUILTY anyway. So the Neta-Babu-Patrakar-Pandu Chowkidaar axis plays Prosecutor, Judge, Jury and Executioner. After everyone from the PM, the defence minister, External Affairs minister, and the PMO, rushed to personally call and assure the WB Chief Minister that the GUILTY Army officers and jawans would be given exemplary punishment, the cops' story has begun to unravel.
By the way, when was the last time anyone heard of the PM personally rushing to inquire about common men and women who are tortured, even killed, by police high handedness?
Turns out that Park Street Cops were working overtime on New Years Eve to nab random members of the public, slapping them and locking them up on trumped up charges of drunkenness, eve teasing or hooliganism and extorting money from them. One couple has also registered a complaint with the NHRC to the effect (the husband was picked up by the park Street Cops as he and his wife were crossing the road. When he asked to know his offence, he was slapped by the cop, who took him to his superior who declared, 'You are a drunkard', slapped him some more, and ordered that he be locked up.) Just so happened that the police snared the wrong fish - the Army Officers - and promptly ended up getting paid in their own coin - by being placed at the receiving end of a (well deserved) beating.
The media immediately jumped on the "casting aspersions" bandwagon and sullied the Army. As the truth slowly begins to emerge - and the usual shenanigans of Indian cops wear thin - we see that there is no woman that complained about being teased or groped.
Four bouncers of this hotel thrashed an Army Major because he demanded his meal for a valid coupon he held. They then put him in a taxi and brought him to Park Street cops. Hafta happy cops who have good 'relations' with this hotel dutifully locked up the officer - inspite of him informing them of his identity. 'No one tells us what we are supposed to do here', so saying the cops beat up the Major before locking him. This is a clear violation of the law - but pandu chowkidars obviously have no clue about the Army Act passed by the Parliament. Soon a captain reaches the police station to reason with the Pandus to free his superior officer. 'Dont tell us what we are supposed to do here' so saying they lock up the Captain as well and for good measure book him for guess what? 'Crossing the road at the wrong place'! Wow, that is so cute. Isnt it?
RE:RE:How the Raksha Mantri let the Army down!
by Setu Madhavan on Feb 09, 2007 10:36 PM Permalink
Yes, here you and other 'patriotic and intelligent' Indians can keep TALKING about 'Pakistan's past behavior'. When Netas and Babus clear out Siachen for Pakis to repeat Kargil, Jawans (who are not TALKING now) will be sacrificing their lives by the hundreds if not thousands to regain it - While patriotic TALKERS will tune on to thier TV sets cheering. When Kargill 2 is over, the TALKERs will be back in action - Netas, babus, patrakar and aam junta - all talking about giving petrol stations and compensation to the widows of Kargil2. Eight years later, these same widows will go with begging bowls in hand pleading for the gas stations. And you know what, neither the Netas, babus will TALK to them, or the aam junta (you included) or patrakar will talk about them. Since you are so patriotic, please write a mail expressing your sorrow / outrage about any single Kargil Widow that is lurching around like a beggar in India! Do you ever hear any political party or news media speak for the forgotten widows of Kargil. Or the still missing Prisoner of War from 1971 war that are in Pakistani prisons (Will we freed 93000 of pakistani prisoners of war!)!!! All coward talkers can do is talk - Pakistanis know that.
The earlier 'big' article, mentions Army chief's opposition to Netas' insistence on unilaterally withdrawing for Siachen. It also focusses on the general apathy towards the jawans in this country.
Why does this coward nation always unilaterally give things away getting nothing in return? Interanational diplomacy is not a brothel - Diplomacy is 'give and take', not 'give and give'. 'I give you take' is Indian diplomacy.
Are we even demanding something in return from Pakistan as a Quid Pro Quo - to show they are serious? How about 'Returning our 1971 soldiers still in Pakistan prisons', or 'Handing over Dawood Ibrahim', or 'Demolishing terrorist camps in POK' - which in Musharraf's words are 'strategic assets' of Pakistan. Or how about plain and simple asking him to 'remove troops from POK' in lieu of us 'pulling troops from Siachen'.
Netas and babus just cannot wait for this 'diplomatic victory' on Siachen. They just cannot wait to be hailed as modern day saints by the world media! Be praised by the US administration for 'showing restraint and leadership'.
The only reason netas are willing to go and gamble the nations interst is because they have an insurance policy to save them when Musharraf comes calling with Kargil2. Sacrifice the jawans.
Yes, the same very jawans, an entire nation and its netas, babus, and media think nothing about besmirching otherwise.
No way India should accept Pak's offer. Well these r meant to break their promise easily and again it would call for another war. No ways India should even lend an Ear to their rubbish promises.
It would be utterly foorlish to trust pakistani leadership on mere talk.
The cost of maintaining army on galcier is too much for pak to bear. Plus we have a vantage point to watch their karakorum traffic to china ( the land they illegaly ceded to china).
