My friend if it is so, why dont we remove the reservation. As there is no much difference that you want to point out, I think reservation doesnt serve anything other than caste differentition!!! And yet Tamilnadu has 69% reservation, right Dinesh? and Karunanidhi is still demanding reservation for OBCs in IIT, IIM, AIIMS. Does he want all Doctors, engineers from castes other than upper castes, even if he doesnt say it directly. He has kept some seats for open category but how useful are they? Again this shows that there is substantial progress in SC/ST/OBC classes, but still there is reservation; so what is the criteria to end the caste based reservation? Will they end the reservation after they have doctor in each house of category people? I am just jocking. But responsible politicians should address these questions.
RE:all people give attention to Dinesh's data
by r patil on Apr 29, 2007 12:23 AM Permalink
Hi yogesh may be Karunanidhi may is to have one doctor ,one iim,one IAS in each of the reserved cast .MAy be even after that he may not want to remove reservation afetrall he needs votes.
By the way dont get disheartened because as soon as the govt is forced to intoduced creamy layer concept these every strong reservationist will become very vocal anti-reservationist and not even neutral in just one go rest assured. Afterall we all including creamy layer want upliftment of "backward caste" but not at our own expense.
Dinesh if govt is not agree for removal of creamy layer for what ever reasons it sounds some thing like this .Hope you lisnet for Eg A son of IAS officer (whoes father has gotcollege seat, job and even promotion through reservation)has scored 80% marks and rest of the people in reserved category have got less then him but they come from non creamy layer .But still he wants seat under reservation for the backwardness of his fellow cast category people. How absurd is that ,Give me reservation because others in my cast are backward in though Iam not backward but dont give my seat to other backward(read non creamy layer).How funny it sounds.Any suppose he is not being given reservation and e is pushed in general category where the seats have alreay being close for 81%.Now that is a real tragic joke on that poor fellow.Dinesh Kumar immagine that son to be your son how are you going to consoul him if you have any haert?
RE:all people give attention to Dinesh's data
by dinesh kumar on Apr 28, 2007 11:53 PM Permalink
yogesh,are we a developed country?there are 500 million people in the obc category.that is not an exaggeration.our population is 1100 million.even if we take it to be 400 million,there is a whole lot of progress to be made.the creamy layer will surely be excluded(maybe in 2013).reservations will probably continue till 2023.in that period,if according to ur fear,the brahmin or any other community becomes eligible for reservations according to the criteria of the mandal commission,they will be included in the reserved list.i cant see that happening. (for example,one criteria is the number of matriculates in that caste should be 20% lesser than the state average.) people who are uplifted will go about their lives without looking for reservations.there are 500 private engg colleges in india.intermarriages will become common and caste will be forgotten.already,most of the students studying abroad have mixed marriages,some marry foreigners.see tomorrows matrimonial column in the newspaper,u will find atleast some with caste no bar,that will increase with time.
yogesh,i accept that it is not perfect.in such an argument,the highly polarised nature makes one to resort to positions that are not easily given up.the approach of the doctors in delhi and many others in this forum is what caused the most distress,the doctors walked with brooms on the streets. the creamy layer argument is the only one that looks faulty on the part of the government.the government has presented arguments to the supreme court about the reasons for including the creamy layer.it will be phased out.it is just not being considered now.that s all. the one point that stands out is that the open category is being increasingly filled by candidates from the obc s and sc s.the open category candidates are being outscored by the reserved categories.does nt that negate the argument about merit being the casualty that the anti reservationists have been propagating in the media
RE:merit
by r patil on Apr 29, 2007 12:05 AM Permalink
Government's argument for not excluding creamy layer is that many of the seats are going to be left empty.This argument of the government is flawed because for the last 60 years many SC.ST seats are being left empty .Coverting those empty seats in general category is forbided by the law.So on a similar line if some obc seats goes empty it is no harm.Other wise govtnment can bring down the number of seats reserved so that they dont go empty.At any rate creamy layer have no moral authority to ask for reservation.After all social jusice and social and educational upliftment is our goal is't it.
NOTE: Supreme court in many of its previous judgement(recently as high as 11 bench of judges) have asked to exclude creamy layer from getting reservation so that more deserving candidates can take reservation benefits. That is the reason Supreme court is NOT going to vacate the STAY unless govt make a law which excludes creamy layer.
Dinesh, well, while I am pointing out flaws in many systems, I have really experienced these, and you can not defend these. Initially, you showed flaws in the system like UPSC and all, so did I; now you are saying why I am showing flaws in every system? In short I want to say that if we could implement the clear, fair and transparent government system, we wont need cast reservation. So that what you have said about UPSC will not happen. And even I am trying to show out flaws in the current reservation system; What is so wrong in it? Even if we try to show out flaws in the constitution, what is the problem? Shouldnt we change? I agree that you and me are not going to amend the constitution or directly change other system, so we should not show flaws in any system? Then why we are discussing this and why this artical has received more than 600 replies if nothing is going to change? We are trying to discuss the really fair system that will not cause injustice to anyone and as it is the major point of my view, obviously I am going to repeat it. By the way why are you defending the Gov and administration so much? Do you have personal interest in it? I agree that many changes have occured in the country after independence as I am very open minded, so shouldnt we show or discuss any fault of the gov?
You have asked me about statistics of population of upper cast. I politely admit that I dont have any. But then will you answer my quetions? How can you consider creamy layer issue as a trival one? Here again I am showing the flaw in the current system which is right to my stand of having fair system. If you insist on cast based reservation, why dont you support my idea of 50% reservation for each caste? I wont measure the population of each caste neither I will ask you to do so, if the gov accepts this idea gov will measure. Currently gov is not going to give reservation for upper casts but it is giving to the backward class, obviously data about backward class is available, not of upper class. If you have any reliable data, tell me.
Initially you were saying that "social and educational backwardness" are the reasons behind reservation and off course ncbc. Now you are pointing towards economical criteria. If we are to follow economical criteria, why not to give reservation to poor in upper casts? Again I am showing two opposite stands of the gov.
You are asking me about the cut off marks of each cast. Whatever I have observed about marks, I have stated it before. But you didnt answer me about injustice. I am repeating if someone getting admission at 75% marks and open at the 95% what kind of justice are you giving? If you are saying that there is no differnce in the marks of open and OBC or so; why do OBC need reservation then?
I am showing contradictions in the gov policies. At one stand gov say we are to eradicate caste system and caste differentiation, on the other hand it implies reservation based on caste. Do you know, patient coming to gov hospital has to write his caste on the case paper. Is doctor supposed to examine the patient considering his cast? Does in this way gov want to eradicate caste system or differentiation?
I am repeatedly showing the contradictions and flaws in the gov system, fuctioning and policies as I am insisting on fair system. I am trying to say implement the clear and fair system, take a clear, non contradictory stand and you will not need the caste reservation as it has its own bad effects.
Bye the way, why dont you accept these flaws and contradictions in the policies? If you accept these, I am not going to hang you up; I am just joking, dont take it seriously. I am really concerned about our country and our society so I am insisting on fair system. And I want to avoid the mistakes that had happened in the past.
RE:FACTS FOR EVERYBODY
by yogesh sonambekar on Apr 28, 2007 10:38 PM Permalink
My friend if it is so, why dont we remove the reservation. As there is no much difference that you want to point out, I think reservation doesnt serve anything other than caste differentition!!!
RE:FACTS FOR EVERYBODY
by yogesh sonambekar on Apr 29, 2007 10:49 AM Permalink
Dera Bharat, But what is the problem in removing reservation from Tamilnadu? Every state can have separate policy. Now, some states are offering reservation for religious minority while Jammu Kashmir is forcing the minority (hindu) to leave the state.
Dear Nagarjun as you know western christain world knows more negative aspects of cast system(untouchbility)then they know any thing about hinduism.That is the reason for so much streotypes against hinduism.
Our parents and religious leaders have always asked us to respect other religions quest to know God.But by very nature of our religion we are encouraged to question the regious beleives of hinduism ,even if we completely deject certain beleives after analyzing and debating we are not out casted.
If you want to change your religion (suppose you are born hindu )to christain faith ,you must first read your religious scriptures (i.e hindu scpritures)then read BIBLE as non beleiver .And after care full analysing the content if you agree with the BIBLE then become a christain.
You should not first become beleiver and then read the bible b'coz you will automatically become biased.Even if you find many countless wrong things in BIBLE who will end up defending it because you dont want to look stupid and want to justify your conversion.
Its always good to know the other side of the coin before tossing it.The links I have given below are maintained by ex-christain who were born in beleiving families and who themself where strong beleivers before they searched for the truth in the BIBLE.After all christainy is completely defined by BIBLE .Christaibity stands and falls by BIBLE without BIBLE their is no christanity ,hence the need to know the BIBLE.
Have a look please http://www.elroysemporium.com/news/slavery.html www.positiveatheism.org/hist/lewis/lewun01.htm Bible unmasked and please google keonaraad elst and read Phycology for prohetism-a secular look at the bible.
Hi Dinesh, friend, I dont want to say that constitution has flaws in itself. I just want to say that we have amended constitution for so many time, it reflects that nothing could be right for all the time. The only CONSTANT thing in the world is CHANGE! Furthermore I want to add that we should always be ready to accept change and shouldnt take anything as rigid. I said this with the reference that if we can amend the constitution why we should not amend the objectives of ncbc and more widely why we should not revise our current reservation policy based on castes?
As a reference to your point of manhandling of Dalits by example of Bhotmange, you again have come to my point. We are having reservation for 60 years but still we could not change the society by reservation, then has the reservation solved our objective? Actually the outcomes of this reservation policy has created great anger in the mind of open category people and so such incidences are increasing day by day. So it is my fear that this reservation policy may worsen the condition.Really we need social reforms instead of reservation and that is what I want to bring your attention to.
RE:plz dont misunderstand
by dinesh kumar on Apr 28, 2007 09:25 PM Permalink
yogesh,do u sincerely believe that there has been no change since independence? change has occurred and more change has to take place. the problem u are facing is one of misconceived fear. well,u tell me how the upper castes are being affected by this quota.if u can give me details about the cutoff marks for upper castes,obc s ,sc s and st s,we will see what injustice prevails. can u also give me a percentage of the brahmin community and other upper castes in maharashtra. you impute faults to every institution.for a debate,you have to define the boundaries.are we debating to write a new constitution? this carping on creamy layer is such a poor reflection on your thought processes.u are not able to focus on the bigger change,instead u are focussing on the trivial issues. every state government has consistently made efforts to remove the economically better off communities.but u have no information about that?earlier everyone was focussing on the point that reservation was being conducted on a caste basis,the point was raised that mandal used economic criteria to determine the obc s. but you are just going on and on and on. well,now u give me some figures?
Dear Dinesh you have not understood the concept of creamy layer, economical condition has nothing to do with creamy layer as you righly pointed out.Let me give you an example
Suppose we have doctors,engineers,IAS officers from reserved category now their choldren are going to be called as creamy layer and bared from taking any reservation benefits even if they are economicaly poor.As we all know not all doctor,engineers,and sincear IAS officer are rich and at any given rate their families are going to become poor if their children fail to get good education and well paying jobs,after all money does not last for ever.
People coming in creamy layer will be denied reservation and they will get pushed in general category even if they are economicaly poor.People coming from socialy and educationaly backward parents even if they are super rich will have right to claim reservation.
hi yogesh,what could u not understand about my referring to priyanka bhotmange.the sc s are being assaulted and killed even today.the perpetrators may be anyone but u get an idea of the mindset that creates it.is any upper caste person being killed or for that matter any obc. physical force is used at times,a clan type of exclusion is practised otherwise ,to retain hold over certain institutions.that is the natural human instinct.what is overriding all these instincts.how have we made such progress,eradicated zamindari,distributed land ,abolished many social practises.it is because the constitution is such a great document,devised by the brightest minds. u speak of the amendments to the constitution as if that points to a fundamental flaw in the constitution.the first amendment was made because the courts refused to allow land reform.at evey step,the courts have given decisions that try to maintain the status quo. the will of the people, as reflected in the elected governments,changes the laws when the courts act as a hindrance. all these revolutionary changes in reforming society have happened in the last hundred years or so,starting with rajarammohanroy. u can imagine the magnitude of the achievement.that is what i was trying to highlight when referring to the maratha rulers of tamilnadu.it is not very long back that kings were the rulers.the times are changing.
