If a Muslim expalins his religion then ask Why Aurangazeb imposed Jiziya?
If a Muslim talks about Islam then ask why jews and arabs are fighting with each other ?
If a Muslim talks about women rights,then ask why a women called Mukhar mai was given punishment when she was a victim?
Keep asking totally othogonal questions and cherry pick individuals and incidents from all over the world.We have billion muslims living in hundredes of countries from sudan to australia and we will always find a case in between these countries,because we RSS idiots dont have any clue on Islam,so assume what ever you know to be Islam and then ask questions on this,to me this is the only way we can argue with them
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by $Ronaldo$ on Jul 11, 2008 09:55 AM Permalink
Nobody is against Islam in India if they were living peacefully here and letting others also live in peace. Why that it is written in Quran to kill anybody who doesn't belive or follow the Religion.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Sincere Citizen on Jul 11, 2008 10:25 AM Permalink
Your frustration can be understood but the fact is that name of Islam was used to justify mass murders, tortures and injustice in past.
It is a fact even today just that with repeated accusations many Muslims have gone into a denial mode.
I feel sorry for your plight but the fact is truth hurts especially when its as bitter as whats coming out now.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Reformer on Jul 11, 2008 08:11 PM Permalink
insincere citizen, reapeating accusation doesn't make them facts. Muslims will always deny all kinds of forged lies and twisted facts. Every nation has its time of glory and plight..so Muslims are having their bad time..what is coming out now is the result of a full scale propagenda mission carried out at mass level and strongly supported by corporate media and opportunist like you. Since muslims are no longer in power so any third class punk is coming and babbling about history and expressing his stinky views about anything.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by $Ronaldo$ on Jul 11, 2008 10:32 AM Permalink
It seems that Senior Citizen has not read the parcicular verses in Quran. In Gita nowhere such a verse is written instead Hinduism says "Sarva Samasto Sukhino Bhavantu". I do not have an idea about Bible
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 01:07 PM Permalink
Mr.salim, forget about Jazia and Mukhtar Mai. How do you justify the following verses from The Glorious Quran:
8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence
4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Reformer on Jul 11, 2008 06:35 PM Permalink
JGN, Why we motivate our Indian army soldiers? why they are given galantry medals? why there are songs so many patriotic songs that encourages Indian soldiers to fight against enemies? So, If Quran does the same for its followers, you will mention it as violence teachings??
The first verse you mentioned above was revealed before the second war of ISLAM, when the enemies of Islam were preparing for war at mass level with superior arms and Muslims were struggling to survive and less in numbers. So the rumors of enemies prepration and size of their army being big were causing disapointment and despair in the Muslim army, at that time that verse was revealed to motivate them. But you mentioned it from no where specially excluding the context to make it look like Allah is ordering to go on fight and kill as a day to day routine...shame on you.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 08:09 PM Permalink
Reformer, I have read 2 versions (English Translations) of the Quran and know for sure what its contents are. Pl preach to some one who has not read the same.
Specially the second verse quoted by me (i.e. 4:74) is even now quoted by the mad Mullahs to motivate the impressionable youth.
>>>>>>specially excluding the context........yes, The Quran is contextual and has no meaning when taken out of context, but that context is 7th century Arabia. It has no meaning in 21st century.
RE:RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Bharat on Jul 12, 2008 12:15 PM Permalink
Oh! Iam sorry, you were in night shift and Iam in a day shift. Means you didn't work yesterday and so am I not working today. All indian works like that only. haa.haa.haa.
RE:RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Reformer on Jul 11, 2008 08:28 PM Permalink
you are changing the subject..you are reading two or ten versions of quran in 10 different languages does not qualifies you for making right perception and understanding out if it...there are thousands of mis interpreted versions of Koran spreaded in the world by christian and jews organisations to creat hatred amongst and against muslims. Many hindus shout their religious slogans while massacering muslims during Gujrat carnage...while killing and raping they shout " jai shri ram"...theese fundamentalist fanatics show some verses like ..dharmaraksha..atma raksha etc etc....so that doesnt means these verses or shri ram ask for violence? Now you are changing your line of attack from Koran to Mulla...now you are saying that Mulla are using it for motivating the youth..but earlier you had object to Allah and his Koranic verses. If people use these verses for wrong purpose then you can't blame Koran. By the way..you didn't tell me anything first verse you mentioned??? ok ok...you can jump now to next set...keep changing color chamelon... and about Koran...it does not says to implement all its verses and orders anywhere without reasoning..whatever is the situation..whatever is the context we have to follow that. and about second verse again...( 1.e. 4:74 ) So if Indian soldiers fighting for India or any one fighting for a right cause dies..will you tell him before going that if you win we will make you sit on a donkey and blacken you face and move you around the city..and
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Reformer on Jul 12, 2008 12:57 AM Permalink
JGN, I have seen your enough posts to know weather you hate muslims or not...given a chance you will ready to cause a MUSLIM HOLOCAUST...such is the hatred in your commnents. I have talked about second verse with detail example...what else you need? about the verse which you, people like you commonly bring is ""go and kill the non-beleivers where ever they are found" to fuel their propagenda has been many times answered by me, many other muslims in this post and noted muslims scholars. You are deliberately omting the verses before and after this verse.If You are pretending to be aslept, no one can awake you. I don't know much about Shia and their beliefs so I won't comment about it like you who don't know anything about Islam in real and just red some "revisionims" material and started chattering about it. By the way..can you tell me in recent times where shia were found of killing " non beleivers whereever they find them?? I clearly told the two verses you first mentioned and their context..what else do you want? and @ "I am open to discuss the matter in an unbiased manner. I have no preconceived notions." give this crap to somone is new to reading your post..the reason you post your quesiton and comments is not for discussing or geting your knowledge corrected...you only post them to express you deep hatred against Islam and creat same feeling amongst the readers.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 08:50 PM Permalink
Reformer, the entire Quran was the concoction of Muhammed to motivate his followers. There was no wireless telegraphy is West Asia in the 7th century to transmit the verses to Muhammed.
The Quran is a plagrised version of The Torah (Old Testament) and Muhammed even used the same technique of Moses (i.e. revealation thru Angel Gabriel).
One of the version of The Quran I read specifically mentions about the verse "go and kill the non-beleivers where ever they are found" that all muslims consider the same was applicable to the battle fo Badr but the Shiia's consider that as a "universal obligation".
The Quran is inherently violent. No use blaming them on "Zionist conspiracy" or "hidden Agenda of Sangh Parivar".
RE:RE:RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 12, 2008 02:51 PM Permalink
>>>>>>>>>>>>By the way..can you tell me in recent times where shia were found of killing " non beleivers whereever they find them??.........that is not possible in the modern world. As you also admit, the verses from the Quran loses its meaning when taken "out of context" and that context is 7th century Arabia. Even in Saudi, no one can act according to the said Verse.
RE:RE:RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Reformer on Jul 11, 2008 08:34 PM Permalink
Cont'd, and if you die we will make dogs pee on your dead body and throw it away and always curse your name ???? No naaa??? So, any book or community will tell the warriors that they will be rewarded and given honor if they win and if they die they will be martyres and will be rememberd with good words...so what wrong if Allah promises people to fight for right cause and promises them the reward here or hereafter?? You have problem with Mullha..go ahead...condemn them...why you are dragging Koran and Allah into this?? becaue you are Atheist? and you want impose your thoughts on others and hate theist? as you don't follow any religion ( which i doubt...) at least you should ask your conscience before doing this is it right or wrong...be honest with yourself first then go and advocating the troubles of people from 7th century to 21 century from India to Europe and Africa.
RE:RE:RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Reformer on Jul 12, 2008 01:09 AM Permalink
Even if I reply to you "innocent question"" you will not further discuss it, you will immediatly either change the subject or bring in a new line of attack like attrocities of Muslim Invaders ...and even if someone reply to this topic you will run away with filthy humor by critcizing Allah, qoran and Islamic beliefs against sceintific reasoning. If you seriously had intentions of getting answers to your "innocent questions and accusation" you would have gone to any authentic Islamic Scholar or website. Forget all this...at least you have posted your comments relevant to news and discussion on rediff...whereever we go on rediffnews from Nuke deal news, to inflation to cricket to bollywood...the disucssion threads becomes communal with lots of Islam Bashers throwing their filth in and few Muslims apologetically defending Islam or retaliating them in their own manner...and there you jump in with your filthy posts and comments and STILL YOU CLAIN YOU DONT HAVE ANY HATRED AND PRECOCIEVED NOTION?? you are reading too much of stuff from "voice of india" kind of websites and publications. Then what are you? Messiah for Humanity?? you are a hypocrite and you can only cheat yourself by saying that.
RE:RE:RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 08:55 PM Permalink
You are asking me to comment on the first verse but you cleverly avoided any mention to the second verse in your reply. Who is acting like chameleon?
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 08:59 PM Permalink
Reformer, pl say clearly whether the verses mentioned above are there in The Quran or not. If there is any distortion in translation, pl give correct translation in English.
I am open to discuss the matter in an unbiased manner. I have no preconceived notions. I do not hate the muslims (or the followers of any religion) but question only the blind beliefs.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by JGN on Jul 12, 2008 02:46 PM Permalink
Reformer,if you have read my messages earlier also you know for sure that I write against the dogmas of all religions (including mine).
Atheists like me would be glad if we can make at least one person get rid of religious dogmas. We have no other intention. You are mistaking my questioning of the superstitions to hatred for the followers. These are two different things.
And I reconfirm that I consider the Quran was the handiwork of Muhammed to hoodwink his followers.
RE:How to debate a muslim?
by Virgo on Jul 11, 2008 11:29 AM Permalink
Aurangazeb imposed Jizya because Islam teaches that. He wanted to follow Islam very strictly according to the quran and the Hadiths.
I am afraid you either have not studied your religion well or that you are in denial.
I quote from "Calicut: The City of Truth Revisited by Prof. M.G.S. Narayanan"
As mentioned above, when the fear of humiliation and conversion to Islam gripped him, the king reportedly set fire to the powder magazine with his own hand. This happened on 27th April, corresponding to 14th of Medam, 941 ME (1766 AD) on Chitra day. The blowing up of the fort was symbolic of the end of Zamorin’s rule of Calicut which had lasted for more than 600 years. The Capital city from where his ancestors had marched out “to die, kill and conquer” was no more the same.
Thus the last ruler of the dynasty which treated Islam with dignity and promoted the Mappila interests in Malabar, perished due to the attack of a Muslim aggressor from Mysore. It gods to the credit of the Mapplia community that during three decades of Mysore occupation under Hyder Ali and Tippu Sultan, they refused,, with a few exceptions like the Ali Rajas of Cannanore, to join hands with the invaders inspite of appeals in the name of religion. Unquote
So Islam was spread in India not only thru forcible conversions during invasions but by seers like Malik Deenar.
However there is no need for our muslim friends to justify or be apologetic about the atrocities committed by the Invaders. We cannot reverse the clock. Learn from history and look forward to the future unbiased.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Aftab on Jul 11, 2008 09:40 AM Permalink
You might have quoted things correctly. I can not comment on it as i have very little knowledge. My knowledge on the subject is as good as your knowledge about Islam and how Islam was introduced in India.
In India, Islam was introduced and spread by the Sufis, like Khawja Nizamuddin Chishti, Hazrat Shah Shrfuddin Yahya Maneri and several thousand saints & Fakirs who came from middle east countries.
All the muslim kings were simply king who were either interested in safeguarding their kingdom or spreading their area. They had nothing to do with Islam.
Once the era of sufism was over, Islamic preachings were done in Khanqah.Khanqah too lost its relevence as those managing it turned like Pandas in Mandir intersted in extorsion of money".
Then came the Madarsa-- Madarsa was an institution of basic as well as higher learning where the children of rich people use to go but its relevence has substantially reduced as the mushrooming of Madarsa has become a business and quality of education imparted is very inferior.
So Madarsa lost its relevence substantially.Now it is the learned people who go door to door to preach Islam and they go allover the world to preach Islam
NOT A SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD WAS SHED TO SPREAD ISLAM IN INDIA , Africa or europe.
In europe more than onelakh fourteen thousand european (manily women)have accepted Islam in last one yaer. In Swedan 1200 people have accepted Islam after the cartoon controversy
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by $Ronaldo$ on Jul 11, 2008 09:59 AM Permalink
And now Madrasas have become a place where hatred towards other religions are taught and a training ground in Pak and Afghanisatan to teach Jihad.
RE:RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Virgo on Jul 11, 2008 10:04 AM Permalink
It is incorrect and insinsere to portray that Islam was spread peacefully in India. Not entirely true. There was a lot of coercion both by the Muslim kings and the Sufis. Thousands of temples were destroyed and mosques built on them. Even the holiest of Hindus temples, the Kasi Viswanatha temple was destroyed by Aurangezeb and the Gaynvapi Mosque was built on the site. It still stands next to the Vishwanath temple that was rebuilt on an adjecent site later. Aurangazeb and other Muslims rulers also imposed Jizya tax on Hindus to force them to covert. You must read history from sources other than the revisionist paki history books.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Sincere Citizen on Jul 11, 2008 10:10 AM Permalink
Dont know about your knowledge of history but the entire strugglle of the Maratha king Shivaji and then the Peshawas was to oppose the atrocities of Muslim empire of Aurangzeb and the kingdoms of Kutubshah,Nizam and Adlishah.
History clearly has it on record that every single time the Muslim army invaded they destroyed temples and forcibly converted people, including the son of Shivaji ie Sambhaji who was tortured and killed because he refused conversion.
We dont blame all Muslims/Islam for this but the fact is very often Muslim rulers interpreted forcible converion as good cause of Islam and did it with a single minded agenda.
Even the sikh guru was tortured and murdered by Aurangzeb. The sikh panth was formed to protect the mass Hindus from Islamic attackers. Hindukush means graveyard of Hindus who were killed during the initial invasion. Surti somnath temple was looted 17 times by such an invader, many people were killed during such invasions.
History cannot be denied but there is an understanding that such cruelties were more arising out of power hungry despots using Islam as a tool for their conquests.
In fact my personal opinion is that Islam was hijacked during the times of Muhammed when his "followers" realised the potential of a new faith to help their personal greed.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Virgo on Jul 11, 2008 11:26 AM Permalink
Islam was not hijacked as you state. If you read the Quran and the Hadiths, you will realize that it teaches that Islam is the only truth and that it must be spread by force if necessary. There are a number of passages in the quran that teaches intolerance, bigotry and hatred. You should stdy the many archives in faithfreedomdotorg to know the truth.
That having said, it does not mean all muslim people are bad.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 12:47 PM Permalink
>>>>>>>>>>>NOT A SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD WAS SHED TO SPREAD ISLAM IN INDIA , Africa or europe........this is incorrect information. That was the reason why I wrote "So Islam was spread in India not only thru forcible conversions during invasions but by seers like Malik Deenar".
The muslims in present day India are not the legacy holders of the Islamic invaders. They (or their ancestors) were the victims of such atrocities.
As for conversion even today, only a handful of people converts to Islam for some very personal reasons. I know of only just one person who converted to Islam recently, that too for a very personal reason (noted writer Ms. Kamaladas aka Madhavi Kutty). Now she has given up burqua and even fled Kerala.
You have yourself admitted that in Europe mainly women converted to Isalm. That may be due to them falling in love with some muslim guy and conversion in a pre-requisite for a muslim to marry a non-muslim.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Reformer on Jul 12, 2008 01:31 AM Permalink
What a pop-eyed reason for conversion of european women to Islam... This means one thing on your part to say.." even if we fall, our leg was up in the air"
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Virgo on Jul 11, 2008 10:03 AM Permalink
It is incorrect and insinsere to portray that Islam was spread peacefully in India. Not entirely true. There was a lot of coercion both by the Muslim kings and the Sufis. Thousands of temples were destroyed and mosques built on them. Even the holiest of Hindus temples, the Kasi Viswanatha temple was destroyed by Aurangezeb and the Gaynvapi Mosque was built on the site. It still stands next to the Vishwanath temple that was rebuilt on an adjecent site later. Aurangazeb and other Muslims rulers also imposed Jizya tax on Hindus to force them to covert. You must read history from sources other than the revisionist paki history books.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by JGN on Jul 11, 2008 08:50 AM Permalink
Note: Mappila means Muslim in Malayalam. Zamorins(Samoothiris)were the rulers of Calicut till Malabar was annexed by Britishers to Madras Presidency.
RE:Pl do not straight-jacket all Muslims
by Virgo on Jul 11, 2008 10:10 AM Permalink
JGn, you are right that our fellow Muslim Indians shouldn't justify or be apologetic, but they do have a responsibility yo admit and accept that their ancestor Muslim invaders and prosletysers did a great deal of harm to the country leading to the breakup of our ancient land. They have this responsibility in order to reach for atonement with the Hindus and build a more peaceful coexistence.
