This message is for all those 'rational and scientific thinker.' My advice is read science more thoroughly and deeply. You will then understand the limitation of science. You will also find that no notion is accepted for a great period of time. Earlier scientists used to think that sun revolves around the earth. Now we laugh at them. Later scientists used to think that sun is staionary and sun and seven planets constitute the universe. Now we laugh at them. We think that there is no other planet on which life exists. It is quite possible that our grandchildren will laugh at us! If you read uncertanty principle then you will find that we just cannot accurately measure position and momentum of any particle simultanously. You will also know the importance of probabilistic theories in all theories. Show me even one nobel prize winner scientist who doesn't believe in God. It is because they all know where science ends and something extranatural starts. Have you forgotton the most famous quote of Einstein, the best scientist that the world has even seen, - "God doesn't play dice with the universe." Do you think you know science better than him?
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:33 AM Permalink
By your logic what ever science says today may be overturned after few years. So Earth May actually be Flat still.. May be it will be swallowed by a Snake with Five heads.. I can say anything I want, because Science will overturn today's truth Good Logic
RE:Science and God
by gagan chadha on Sep 15, 2007 09:49 AM Permalink
My dear balaord. Science is not what christians say it is. It is already written in Hindu holi books thousands of years ago. Not for no reason Hitler worshipped Swastika. The poor fellow used it inverse, which led to his doom.
Vedic science never said that earth is flat. incase you saw discovery of India - Bharat ek Khoj serial about 15 years ago, the shloks enchanted and their meaning given during credits run after the end of the serial clearly said how the universe for formed. What einstien discovered fow not something new, it was discovered 1000s of years ago by vedic scientist.
So far as authenticity of Rama goes, if it was a story set in Ayodhaya, I would also think it was all rubbish. How could valmiki describe far away lands which exact geographical locations?
Everything that Christian science does, has already been done by vedic scholars thousands of years back.
And evrything got destroyed during Mahabharat, what is left is only legend.
When history is very old, it becomes legend. because the physical proofs no more remain intact.
but all this is beyond the understanding of neo religions which are so your - only a millineum old. These religions are so insecure, they ask you to bow your head or attend religious gatherings every sunday.
Mind you i hate going to temple, and especially the most popular ones because how inconvenient it is. When I talk about hinduism, its the vedic one not the brahmin chores...
RE:RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:54 AM Permalink
Instead of rubbishing these stories why dont you point me to some academic links which says this or some well known scientist who authorizes these views?
RE:Science and God
by birju on Sep 15, 2007 10:30 AM Permalink
What's the use of giving u madarsa breds any academic links?the only technology u understand is making bombs.
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 10:14 AM Permalink
For your information.I have lots of respect for Indian mathematicians like Bhaskara and AryaBhatta. These great men of science didint belives in the paganistic belifes (sorry for saying this) like snake headed gods, earth swalloing animals etc. These men probably would have belived in Oneness of God
RE:Science and God
by Neeraj Kumar on Sep 15, 2007 09:46 AM Permalink
That is not my logic. It is a fact that science keeps on changing. Most of the theories of 18th century and 19th century have been overturned. Can you deny this? You have missed the wood for tree. I have only tried to convey that there is something beyond science. You cannot say that what science can't see today does not exist at all. May be science is not so developed today to see those things. Our future science may see those things. Hasn't it happened in the past? Galileo was put under house arrest as he put forward the concept of heliocentric model of the universe as that was against the science of those days. Later on the world realised that his concept was correct. Now we know that he was not so correct as sun is not stationary and it is not the centre of the universe. Read science more thoroghly dude!
RE:RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:53 AM Permalink
Neeraj correct your history knowledge Helliocentric model was well known to Muslims centuries before Gallilioe.
see the most authoritative journal on science "American Scientist"
(Note you can see only the abstract) http://www.americanscientist.org/template/Login;jsessionid=baad-liQMjPbZZ?nextpage=AssetDetail&print=yes& ;fulltext=true&assetid=17936&message=PageAccessDeniedMessage
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 10:38 AM Permalink
May be true. As in Doha Asiad, some display of history was there. Muslims might have known it, but as the chronology was with Christians , it might have been sidelined.
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 09:58 AM Permalink
Hello bala, Galileo was sentenced to gallows by Cardinal Bellarmine for herecy, which was revoked by Pope John Paul II. Dont just read books REad only authentic books
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 10:07 AM Permalink
Oh I see.American Scintist is not authetic enough is it? Friend,This magazine has lots of Nobel laurates in its editorial. I just pity your knowledge
RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 10:23 AM Permalink
Dear Bala, Such vague american scietists exist. Just cross check,with the encylopedia to know whether Raobert Bellarmine and Galileo were comtemporaries, and that Galileo was convicted by St. Raobert Ballarmine.
RE:Science and God
by Rajesh C on Sep 15, 2007 09:40 AM Permalink
Let our great ASI "scientists" prove otherwise. If they say there is no historical basis, its their incompetence in not being able to find the basis. India is one country in the world which tolereate vermin like communists and rationalists.
RE:RE:Science and God
by Vinay Gupta on Sep 15, 2007 09:46 AM Permalink
balaord, why u muslim r afraid of puting yr real name in message board. is there any science or mohamad has told u not to divulge the name as he was afraid of showing his dirty photo
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:50 AM Permalink
Talk about the issue.Your name calling simply tells that you are empty headed and have no facts to speak about
RE:Science and God
by birju on Sep 15, 2007 10:58 AM Permalink
what issue musle.....first get the DNA test of the hair in hazrat bal mosque........and then come and debate here.
RE:Science and God
by Anirudh Narasimhan on Sep 15, 2007 09:38 AM Permalink
but u use products of science.. do u laugh at them?? and those who said things about science and solar system were philosophers and not scintists.. science is a systematic approach.. BUT i do feel an unnecessary statement has been made to hurt religious sentiments and could have been avoided. Though there is no evidence of any god existing.. be it jesus or allah or rama, imagine what the state of the nation would be if this was said against another religion? It would be burning.. Only because hindus are tolerating we get the brunt.
RE:Science and God
by Vinay Gupta on Sep 15, 2007 09:43 AM Permalink
balaord, try to understsnd what neerajhas`said. there r certain things specially theories whether in science`, history or any other subject which are always prone to change. Example before discovery of Dwarka submerged under sea people like u used to laugh. but now they shud be ashmed. but do they have the courage to do so?
this attitude is the height of unscientific temprament
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:46 AM Permalink
sorry , I never heard of anything called Dwarka or whatever Can you point me to some neutral or academic web sites on this please
RE:RE:Science and God
by Vinay Gupta on Sep 15, 2007 09:49 AM Permalink
read from web. search Dwarka, ASI etc. u will get lot. but all yr energy is for negating what is Indian. use some to find what is truth in Indian History
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:56 AM Permalink
I put Dwarka .I am only getting pilgrimage websites. Dont rubbish.You guys cant point to one scientific link in the web on this issue
RE:RE:Science and God
by Neeraj Kumar on Sep 15, 2007 09:51 AM Permalink
In ancient age, science and philosophy was a single stream. Science became an independent field only few hundred years back. Now even science has bifurcated into so many independent fields. For example, nuclear physics is a totally inependent field since last few decades. So can you say that Einstein didn't understand anything about nuclear physics as this independent field did not exist during his times?
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 10:07 AM Permalink
You are right again, The pity after Science took over, Philosophy is thrown to the bins. Had both marched together no worldwars.
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 09:43 AM Permalink
Only after the emergence of Islam , science was systematically studied and the concept of Empricism evolved.before many scientific statements are mere hypothesis. See the Biograpby of Roger Bacon wrongly credited for Scientific methodology http://roger-bacon.biography.ms
%u2026 and has been presented as one of the earliest advocates of the modern scientific method; though later studies have emphasized his reliance on occult and alchemical traditions of the arabs%u2026%u2026The scientific training Bacon had received, mainly from the study of the Arab writers%u2026%u2026 He was intimately acquainted with the philosophical and scientific insights of the Arabic world, which was the most advanced civilization at the time%u2026
RE:Science and God
by ShambhuSaranPrasad on Sep 15, 2007 09:47 AM Permalink
The Science is based on postulates, and so the conclusions inferred therefrom. The philosophopy , which deals among other things existence of God et al, begins where the sciences end. the kind of affadavit that has been filed on behalf of the union government merely represents the limitations of thinking process of the concerned officials. s.s.prasad, Chandrapura, Jharkhand
RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 10:01 AM Permalink
Dear Neeraj, This is the reply I wanted to give to a pseudo SCIENTIST in the forum. Both for the inner peace and harmony in the nature we follow these leaders. Without innner peace there is no knowledge. Even Engels and Tiruvalluvar are mighties, though we have not elevated them to the reverence level' What they observed and analysed is for the sake of humanity and not for individual egos. Mr. Booole , the poor primary HM , would not even thought that his algebra would ever make sense to the people. Today the world is on his algebra. Know the real stalwarts and be matures. Do not go after the politicians and filmstars and business tycoons. They are mortals, but the real truth seekers are immortal.
RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 09:54 AM Permalink
The reply I wanted to give to a pseudo SCIENTIST in the forum. Both for the inner peace and harmony in the nature we follow these leaders. Without innner peace there is no knowledge. Even Engels and Tiruvalluvar are mighties, though we have not elevated them to the reverence level' What they observed and analysed is for the sake of humanity and not for individual egos. Mr. Booole , the poor primary HM , would not even thought that his algebra would ever make sense to the people. Today the world is on his algebra. Know the real stalwarts and be matures. Do not go after the politicians and filmstars and business tycoons. They are mortals, but the real truth seekers are immortal.
RE:Science and God
by sutirth dey on Sep 15, 2007 10:12 AM Permalink
Most of the things that you say are true but irrelevant in the context of the present discussion. Just as several scientific theories have been replaced by other scientific theories, several traditional beliefs have also been overthrown by modern science. For example, there was a time when it was believed that natural calamities are results of people's sins and God's displeasure, whereas today we have more proximate reasonings. Does this mean that God has been ruled out? Logically the answer is no. But if you want to say yes, then by this argument, all that you said about scientific theories being wrong and hence can not be relied upon, makes religious beliefs equally unreliable. Are you ready to accept that??
Again, what does the personal belief of a Nobel prize winner has to do with the existence of God? Science has neither proven nor disproven the existence of God and considers "HIM" to be outside the purview of scientific inquiry. Regarding Einstein, there is no doubt that he was a great thinker, but does that mean that there was no piece of scientific knowledge that was not known to him? Believe me, there are many things that a Standard 12 student knows today that Einstein himself would have had no clue at his time. Thus, just because Einstein has made a statement that mentions God, does not mean that all scientists should start believing that God exists. In fact, that is the precise anti-thesis to science- believing what somebody else says, on faith.
RE:RE:Science and God
by sutirth dey on Sep 15, 2007 10:18 AM Permalink
Just a clarification, my above post is in response to Niraj's original post and not on anything said afterwards.
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by sutirth dey on Sep 15, 2007 10:21 AM Permalink
@ Balarod
I was just showing the flaws in the logic that Niraj has used. As a matter of fact, he does not state that he is keeping it limited to the issue of existence of Ram, he made pretty general comments.
RE:RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 10:16 AM Permalink
We are not discussing about Scientific proof of GOD.We are questiong the scientific evidence for a Historial figure called RAM.
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by birju on Sep 15, 2007 11:00 AM Permalink
NO..WE ARE DISCUSSING THE BRAIN DEAD ZOMBIES,FOLLOWING A PDOPHILE HIGHWAY ROBBER,A RAPIST CALLED MOHAMMAD.
RE:RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 10:30 AM Permalink
Objections, 1. Einstein is the graetest scientist of all 2. Most of the science nobel winners till date eitber jew or a christian. Draw the inference, Without religeon no knowledge. Without religeon it is only prodogal life. What ever religeon or following it may be. It is must to the humanity.
RE:Science and God
by balaord on Sep 15, 2007 10:39 AM Permalink
One more point. Nole prize was there only FOR 100 YEARS.This is the period where Brtish and other europeans colonized nations by dividing them So during this period, you wont find any one other than europeans or americans. When the whole world was busy buidling universities, we Indians were strugling to get out of British,So we lost well over hundred years on this.The saemis true for other eastern anations
RE:Science and God
by Neeraj Kumar on Sep 15, 2007 10:32 AM Permalink
Dear sutirth, your logic is identical to mine. The students of class XII cetainly known more about physics than what Einstein would have known. This exactly is my point. The students of Class XII in 2200 AD will also know more about science than what we all know! Isn't it? How can you argue authoratively on the knowledge which changes every day. The point that I wanted to make was that there is certanly more to science than what we know. We cannot challange something just because "today's science" cannot prove or disprove something. By the way could you please give the name of any of the nobel prize winner scientist who never believed in God? If you read the evolution process carefully then you will know that there was almost zero probability of evolution of man. Every time something spectacular happened that led to the way of modern homosapiens. Starting from the distance of earth from sun, evolution of ameoba, destruction of dynasours etc. There are million of such things. Do you see any hidden hand somewhere?
RE:RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 10:47 AM Permalink
Dear Neeraj, I think you are a graduate in philosphy. Philophy is studied in India by a small sect. Any way, Let your God share his knowledge with you.
RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by Neeraj Kumar on Sep 15, 2007 10:58 AM Permalink
Dear Suraj, I am a graduate from IIT Delhi and a civil servant currently. I am only trying to bring out the limitations of science after sudying science in great details for so many years. We should not close our mind. I am asking all of you to become true thinker and true rational and not just a pseudo-thinker. Anyway, I have posted so many facts till now and I am yet to see any message which basically questioned my facts. So you judge yourself - who is more rational?
RE:RE:RE:RE:Science and God
by suraj on Sep 15, 2007 11:15 AM Permalink
You are rational. The theory of evolution and its interpretation about the involvement of the supernatural hand , all nre not taught in IITs. Any way, You say that Einsteins theories would be a matter known to matrics in 2020. Please clarify, Einstien theory of relativity on movig frames. Whether the theory is limited to optics or mechanics, or both.
