We need a apology from the British for all the horrows of their rule ,untill the Queen & the Pm come to INDIA & apologise for their rule along with a resolution from the british parliament & also return the Kohinoor diamond & all the relics, etc taken by force from INDIA WE SHOULD BOYCOTT ALL BRITISH GOODS & all contacts with the UK, let us all start a movement I pledge i will BOYCOT all uk goods & once this movement catches momentum from ordinary people like me the Indian Govt too will make these conditions a preconditions for future contacts with the uk,come on folks we all owe it to our forefathers who may have been killed or looted by the british.JAI HIND
RE:apology from the british
by Murthy on May 08, 2007 03:29 PM Permalink
Yes let UK USA and Europe take away their jobs back. No more outsourcing. Lets close down our software factories, and stop exporting and kill our earnings of $35 billion IT exports and $150 billion goods export. Lets stop using English and stop wearing trousers. Lets all start to wear dhoti kurta and that stupid ash on the forehead and head to the stone ages. ............. right ?
And yes Lets stop travelling by West Invented Railways airplanes and cars, and back to good ol' bullock carts ..... right ?
And lastly lets stop using internet and mobile phones.
RE:apology from the british
by Murthy on May 08, 2007 05:20 PM Permalink
India was third class nation with people dressing in dhoti kurta, bullock cart travelling, stupid ash on the forehead, and dominating brahmins, and no real proper judiciary in place before british came.
ZERO and that's it. Suddenly it all stopped and you could not move beyond bullock carts for 3000 more years !
Look what english invented. 100 nobel prizes from Great Britain alone, every key inventions.
What I am saying is that what you suggesting boycotting UK invented stuff is WRONG.
RE:apology from the british
by Pradeep on May 08, 2007 07:13 PM Permalink
Sorry Murthy, I don't agree with you. India was not third class nation. Infact India was the richest country in terms of wealth in 14th - 16th century. I am saying it on the basis of the reports compiled by leading scholars of west. Why Great Britian has more nobel prizes winner because they are aware of the system. They know how to patent the ideas.
200 years ago people of Britian were also travelling on Bullock Cart.
I am not justifying that India is great. just telling you not to say anything which you are not aware of.
RE:apology from the british
by Subhasish Ghosh on May 08, 2007 09:20 PM Permalink
Murthy, Pradeep puts a lot of your issues in presepctive. While I agree, resentment and living in clutches of history is hardly productive, I disagree forgetting history and non-contextual awe of western aceheivements is beneficial to our esteem as a country. India has indegeniously developed many sciences that remain competitive even with the heavy onslaught that it faced from hundreds of years of invasion and relgious whitewash. You may alleviate your ignorance on such by studying and gaining first hand knowledge before you preach about our underahceivements.
Comparing our economic performance is not apples and apples. Much of western economic growth is tainted in slavery , imperialism and annexation. It is only less than 100 years old that these cvilizations have learnt and worked to co-exist that our civilization did a long time ago. USA's fight against race and slavery is still not very distant in history. UK's withdrawl from apartheid and imperialist regimes (SA & Hong Kong being recent examples) are still fresh in historical memories...
But I do agree with your point that we have lost our ability to innovate that our founding cultures had. We have lost our ability to heal and move on and become strong. Ashok's riducluous call is a sign of such. But I wonder sometimes why some people have a tremendous low esteem about our nation and attempt to balance it by appeasement. Let us take Narayan Murthy's blabber on the national anthem as another example of the line of thought where he was more concerned about Western presence and their appeasement when it came to a symbol of national pride that should have been non-negotiable.
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by Pradeep on May 08, 2007 08:36 PM Permalink
First of all, I am talking about 14-16 century not 18th. You are wrong and don't have enough knowledge of World's history. Average Indians had a far better lifestyle than the Americans and Britishers in 14-16th century. Britishers were immigrating to India in 14-16th century not invading. like what we Indians are doing right now, immigrating to west.
RE:apology from the british
by Subhasish Ghosh on May 09, 2007 10:26 PM Permalink
Hi Murthy, Some "credible" evidence online of the state of India's economic well being for you. I quote from Wikipedia: "According to economic historian Angus Maddison in his book The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective, India had the world's largest economy in the 1st century and 11th century, with a 32.9% share of world GDP in the 1st century and 28.9% in 1000 CE. However, it must be noted that Maddison in his work was comparing geographic regions before 1500 and the comparisons between India and China were between geographic locations that included those countries. In 1700, when most of India was ruled by the Mughal Empire, it had a 24.4% share of world GDP, the largest at the time, which fell drastically to 3.8% by 1952. Another estimate of India's pre-colonial economy puts the revenue of Akbar's Mughal empire in 1600 at ?17.5 million, in contrast to the entire treasury of Great Britain in 1800, which totalled ?16 million" The article can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_India
RE:apology from the british
by Subhasish Ghosh on May 09, 2007 11:57 PM Permalink
And just to add to the note of your conclusions using "GDP per capita", India was/is a populous state and WEALTH distribution was/is uneven. But unlike your conclusion of 'per capita stats, India had a strong middle income class that spurred export based economy and trade. Ans the economy as whole was still producing 25% of Worlds' wealth. If that is not a wealthy nation, nothing is. For about 500-800 years, India has been annexed and its strengths ravaged. Our cultures went into restrospective measures to protect heritage including vedas. Purdahs, Sati remain sore social symbols of these retrogrades. It is only 50 years of rebuilding and we have become an economic powerhouse and growing. If we have willing citizens, we will turn around history one day soon.
I live in the States, but what beats me is the attitude of some residents who justify their immigration implicitly by mudslinging India.
RE:apology from the british
by Murthy on May 10, 2007 09:05 AM Permalink
do you even know the definition of the wealth ? GDP is the sum total of goods and services produced in an economy, and a country having largest population, if propely developed, is going to have largest GDP as well. BUT for average Indians it means nothing.
Look Pakistan's GDP is greater than Switzerland and hence Pakistan has more wealth than Switzerland.
But Swiss command a superior lifestyle and high end products, which command premium prices, unlike Pakistani which either export handicrafts or textiles which are highly price sensitive.
So just by having more wealth does Pakistan a superior country for economic well being of it's citizens ? Swiss or Pakistanis are better off ?
A country can be a superpower and still have poor beggers as citizens as seen in North Korea, Nuclear bombs but nothing to eat !
Why isn't the simple thing getting inside your head that it is PER CAPITA INCOME that matters and not overall GDP (or wealth as you say).
What was population of USA in 1820s - Less than 10 million and yet had a solid per capita income with just 13 states.
India was 250 million and low average standard of living even then, now and in the future. The same BRIC report says that India's per capita income will be barely what is Thailand's today in 2020.
While USA EUROPE and JAPAN Russia will comfortably have 3 to 4 times the PCI in 2050 also.
SIZE of the GDP means nothing , get this in your mudhead.
Otherwise all Swiss could be seen migrating to Pakistan which has a larger "wealth".
Have you ever thought issues OUTSIDE what you learnt and spoon fed at school ? OR you are all theoretical ?
Living in USA and yet you observed NOTHING ! Economy of Alabama is larger than Connecticut. Which state is better ?
And are you making a fool of public ........ middle class ? You got t be kidding. IN medieval times 95% of the population was dependent on agriculture and there was no heavy industry to speak of, and kings taxed heavily to finance their grandiose projects and wars. Look at paintings from medieval India and average Indian was very poor and weak.
Over all all so called Wealth is not a good indicator of average life of citizens nor is it distributed evenly in any economy.
And today Indians are breedign like rabbits and 22 millino babies are born every year ! equal to total population of Australia EVRY YEAR . this will ensure PCI stays LOW in the future too.
And property prices like $150000 in small towns like faridabad and noida, in a country where PCI is only $3500 is NOT COOL either.
RE:apology from the british
by Subhasish Ghosh on May 11, 2007 09:11 PM Permalink
Hi Murthy Calling names does not provide strength to your logic anymore than your facts do.
Let me again suggest you read my post articulately. Before lecturing, I suggest reading with comprehension. Per Capita Income is an average of GDP over population and is not an indicator of economic status of citizens. If you really want to dig deep into purchasing and wealth distrbution, consider research on the term "Purchasing Power parity". It is and adjusted value to provide comparison about pruchasing capacity of an average individual. Research again , this time not with pictures of past and presumption by graphical representation, and you will find the middle income was doing decently well and business flourished (One of the largest caste group was Kshatriyas and Baniyas). I am not denying poverty, but poverty is comparative and we did not have starvation and epidemic and general socail rebellion and failing social fabric. Anyway, the point is hardly economics.
You said India lacks wealth and has hardly produced anything substantial in the past to command respect as opposed to Western Civilizations and the wealth created is a good indicator of its capabilities.
Most of the people that are responding to you are trying to point to you is that is ignorance or a myospcopic view of the bigger picture. You are more concerned about post WWII developments without attaching relevance or significance to our previous assets. That is contextually skewed argument. It is like ridiculing a grandpa for not knowing how to program in C .
If you study history enough, you will understand why there is a deep respect for Indus civilization which influenced many civiizations and their fundamental thinking. You will see how trades were linked to remote civilizations even as remote as the Incas and how we were doing well in metallurgy , construction and medicine before the invasions changed our course of history dramatically. Even in WW when Britain was reeling from medicinal issues in treating epidemics, homeopathy formed a major force of treatment.
what we lost out is developemnt of these indegenious fileds- partly circumstantial, partly discipline and loss of respect for our culture.
So I agree with you in your rebuke for call of abondoning western lifestyle. But I abhor your resentment and ridicule of India.
RE:apology from the british
by Subhasish Ghosh on May 11, 2007 10:37 PM Permalink
Some correction on the above post: "You said India lacks wealth and has hardly produced anything substantial in the past to command respect as opposed to Western Civilizations and the wealth created is a good indicator of its capabilities."
should be read as: You said India lacks wealth and has hardly produced anything substantial in the past to command respect as opposed to Western Civilizations. But you contradict the comprehension that the wealth created by India was 25% of the world which is a good indicator of its capabilities then.
RE:RE:apology from the british
by stav on May 09, 2007 08:13 AM Permalink
Where did you get this statistics from. The british owe us more than 3 trillion dollars.
RE:apology from the british
by AMIT ROHATGI on May 12, 2007 05:05 PM Permalink
Hello Murthy
The way you write 'Indians'in your replies shows that your are not one or are extremely embaressed to be one. It seems that as you are already in 'Great Britain', you are superior to millions of people livin in India. I am sure the britishers must be treating you like a royalty and no localite ever there have called you bloody indian or F.... paki. I am also sure that u must have never faced racism there in your Great Britain and never looked down upon. And if its Indians who lined up to go to Dubai or China like beggars, were you - an indian too , born there? or rather some british royalty came to India to adopt you. So better check out how you ended up being in Great Britain and working for a Angrez there.
RE:apology from the british
by Murthy on May 08, 2007 09:29 PM Permalink
Mr pradeep I challenge you to come up with CREDIBLE sources to back your claims that British and Americans were migrating on MASS scale in 14th century .................. if you cant come up with a reference, better shut up.
There was NEVER in 14th century a mass migration from Europe to India. What will the come here for to becomic Islamic slaves ? do you know India was ruled by Islamic emperors with Zero tolerance for other religions.
RE:apology from the british
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 08:05 PM Permalink
Murthy, I only have one thing to say, either you have gone mad or so selfish to ignore your self respect. If you cant respect india and its heritage even a bit, please change your name to somewhat English from a Tamil one and stop earning from my country and stop eating my country's food and immediately head for UK and ask for a citizenship from UK, probably they would immediately grant it to you realising your love and indebtedness towards them. You should not breath even for a minute in India. Stop all your nonsense.
RE:RE:apology from the british
by Ascetic on May 09, 2007 12:01 AM Permalink
@ Murthy, why do you hate India so much? The only things you like are whatever the west gave us, like western clothing, IT jobs! Agreed we can't boycott everything western, but India was never as pathetic as you point out. The west made commendable inventions, which is good coz they have a knack for taking risks. But all the cultures have their drawbacks too. I live in US and development is taking such a toll on them that they have the largest number of pill-popping, depressed, psycho people in the world. So many of them like the Indian yoga and meditation. I agree brahmins were despicable but our country has some good things too. Let us not forget that.
@ Ashok, your first post was an extreme. There is no point is asking British to come to India and apologize. Such stuff is superficial. Let us as a country become more developed and strong, while we still treasure our values.
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by Pradeep on May 08, 2007 07:22 PM Permalink
Only for Murthy ---
Some 1000 years back, when Europe was in the dark ages and America did not exist, India and China ("the Orient") were the global centers of knowledge, prosperity, and wealth. In fact, India was the richest country on earth until the early 17th Century. This wealth lured foreign invadors and sailors from Alexander the Great to Genghis Khan to Christopher Columbus (who set sail across the oceans searching for India and came to America). Here are some historical tidbits on India:
* The world's first university, Nalanda University, was located in Takshila, India in 700 BC. Over 10,000 students from all over the world studied here in more than 60 disciplines (ironic, huh!). * The Arabic number system was originally invented in India, and then translated by the Arabs for use by other civilizations (hence called "Arabic"). Much of algebra, trigonometry, calculus, and statistics originated in India. The value of pi was first calculated by Indian mathematician Budhayana in the 6th century. Quadratic equations were propounded by Sridharacharya in the 11th century. * The first school of medicine known to man, Ayurveda, was established in India some 1300 years ago. Ayurveda is the basis for many of today's modern medicines, including anatomy, physiology, etiology, embryology, digestion, metabolism, genetics and immunology, and is still practiced worldwide as "alternative medicine." * Sushruta, an Indian health scientist, is the father of modern surgery. He demonstrated 2600 years ago how to perform complex surgerical procedures such as cesareans, artificial legs, fractures, urinary stones, and even plastic surgery and brain surgery. Over 125 surgical equipments and anasthesia were used by Indian surgeons at that time. * In the 5th century, Indian astronomer Bhaskaracharya calculated the time taken by the earth to orbit round the sun (365.258756484 days), which is the starting point of much of today's astronomy. * Today, more than 7,000 companies in the USA are run (as CEOs, Chairmen, etc.) by Indians, generating an estimated $60 billion in annual sales. These firms include McKinsey & Co., Citigroup, Merrill-Lynch, United Airlines, US Airways, Sun Microsystems, Alcatel, and Vodafone. Indians also have the highest per-capita income of any ethnic group in the U.S.
RE:apology from the british
by Pradeep on May 08, 2007 08:20 PM Permalink
Every country has its ups and downs. 150 years ago Britian was the biggest empire and superpower in the world but now it is USA. The way India and China are progressing , very soon it will go ahead of USA in terms of military and economical strength.
Again you are stupid. china (and India but i dont conside it in that same league) are developign same weapons that USA and USSR did 50 60 years ago. Tell me name of ONE top gun fighter aircraft or tank coming out of chinese stables and u will know the backwardness of technologies.
Quantity is NOT equal to Quality.
Both are cheap low cost third grade manufacturers.
Chinese or Indian products NEVER COMMAND premium pricing in the world.
It is European products that commmand PREMIUM prices.
No one will pay Swiss prices for an Indian or a Chinese cheapies.
Rolex Longines Omega are sold for $$$$$ nto cheapies from china.
Poor quality crap.
Both have CHEAP labour and will dominate low end of the market and I guess that's economic "superpower" for you.
RE:apology from the british
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 05:35 PM Permalink
Sorry to say but now you simply have a sick state of mind, who you are to classify that India was a thiord class nation, and worst what makes you to classify that dhoti kurta is again a third class attire ! probably you like people without cloths much more as what todays british wear (or dont wear at all). Sounds like a Britney Fan. You even disrespect Mahatma Gandhi who dared to enter into British Parliament in only Dhoti not even Kurta, Can you dare do that? Britisher's will kick on you butt, Do you classify to be in that Nobel list which British produces to be competent enough to classify India as third class ? what is your existence? Let me tell you, Britain shines and your eyes are glazed in its shine, this shine is from the India's Gold of centuries which British looted. India and other colonies has fed British till now and the British pound became one of the strongest currency because they had so much reserves in their vaults all from their colonies. And as far as India is concerned it always had the best culture, alas you can only see dhoti kurta. If you say Boycotting UK stuff is wrong one may have several thoughts and stretegies, but it depends that by which mentality this statement has been made, the way you have mentioned definitely degrades your own mother and still after doing that you want to call yourself cultured since you wear pants !
RE:[object]
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 05:54 PM Permalink
First yes I would get a job by speaking Hindi. and even if it gets tough then it is because of the mental state which you guys have created. Why do people in Germany gets a Job by speaking only German and in France by speaking only France ? they never needed a back up of English ? Because they know how to respect their roots and build on their roots rather than on an invaders roots. All the superpowers of world and emerging powers have got jobs with their own language not on piggybacking on English! and they feel proud about it. And as far as Bullok carts are concerned probably British were born with American Ford ! Man if you want to do something then empower yourself rather than following someone, you will never be respected otherwise...
RE:apology from the british
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 05:48 PM Permalink
.. And also I wish the Genie, you would have been there in 1800-1947 to tell all Indians "My brother Indians, let britishers humiliate you, because you are like that since you never had knowledge of shirts or pants or tie, Let them rape your sisters and mothers and behead your brothers because Britishers shall teach you how to live in future and give you education and law which you have not had yet, Please my brothers let them loot torture and hang you and put the shit in your mouths since they shall tell you how to eat with cutlery, what kind of music is to hear, what kind of wine is to drink, what kind of attire to wear what kind of language to speak in the future, forget what you have learned and be ready to see 21st century of shine, your sacrifice will be remembered by all like myself of 21st century indians that you died to make our lives much better" thanks at least we know now how to eat :)
RE:apology from the british
by Murthy on May 08, 2007 05:55 PM Permalink
All I want to say that your hatred for PRESENT DAY Great Britain and English HOLDS no water.
What was in the past, is in the past, and you cannot live on realities of something that happpened 300 years ago today.
Will you punish a human being simply if his ancestors were thieves ? He is in no way responsible for their deeds.
Just like I am in no way responsible for deeds of my ancestors who were decoits, nor am I responsible for deeds of my brother or sister. NO I Wont go to jail for them.
All I am responsible is for MYSELF, today now and present.
RE:apology from the british
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 03:44 PM Permalink
Yes we should, but till the time the people like you who always followed "Angreziyat" and stabbed your brothers for Angrez and served "English", we can never be successful. History is the witness of this, all the wars of india failed because there were some indian tatoos who always felt the english way. And lastly the truth, China, Russia, Germany, France are not built by piggybacking on English and UK ! They used there own language and customs and own wisdom to become modern powers of today ! Sorry man, your thoughts are sick.
RE:apology from the british
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 04:11 PM Permalink
Mr Murthy, I dont know about Bullok carts but I travel by a vehicle which was not made by British, but by a nation who has been ENEMY of British named Japan ! And if you want to talk about Hyppocrisy, look first in youself ! Hyppocrite people like you shall always keep on fighting in small things like schooling and mobile phones, while to make you learn hard way, language is a knowledge it does not change the content you guys talk about language and I talk about content. No one becomes British by using English, but people like you in todays world and like "Sir" in historian worlds who did not even know to speak english are the worst examples of british tattos. Swami Vivakanand and Rabindranath Tagore were best scholars in english while true devotees of indiaism. STOP crying and start learning, but alas that wont happen, because people like you have developed a habbit to live sleep eat drink and whatever all English you cant live if UK dies.... :) but you can If India rots
RE:RE:apology from the british
by Murthy on May 08, 2007 04:23 PM Permalink
I think you live in 17 th century not 21st.
Today Japan and UK have best of relations. Unlike mug headed individual like you, Japanese have moved on.
Enemy of Japan was USA also who bombed the crap out of Japan, and YET today USA JAPAN have solid defense and economic relationship. Do you know the amount of nuclear weapons that Japan allows USA to keep on it's soil ? Or you are again mud headed there too.
Live in PRESENT and not 300 years ago or get a Psychiatric counselling.
RE:apology from the british
by ashok saxena on May 08, 2007 04:39 PM Permalink
Buddy, I dont want to divert with discussing Economy and politics of Japan. I simply do not travel by a British Car as simple as that. If you talk about today, the world's major economies and most of the people have no love or depandencies to British, it is still only in the blood of some indians (probably great grandsons of those who served British at dinner table) who thinks that India will not survive and is complete depandant on British. I certainly live in today's world but I do understand the facts that India, one of the oldest nation and the indians who have taught the world the basics and created the best in everyfield have survived for centuries without British helping them for sure. However still there is a percentage which thinks like you will not survive, probably because.. I dont know may be related to blood or your helplessness without English. Again look at countries like Russia and Germany first in today's world only, I hope you hold a British Passport by now.
RE:apology from the british
by Ratnesh Sahay on May 08, 2007 09:15 PM Permalink
Well said, Ashok. You should also have asked about how his parents grew on English.
RE:apology from the british
by psycho on May 09, 2007 11:37 AM Permalink
Guys , relax don't fight Britishers may have looted us. but india was created by britishers if india was not ruled by britishers it wouldn't have been india. india would have been some "n" number of countries. they gave us Democracy they taught us how to rule a country. how to run a country set up a education system. they may have done a lot of bad things , but they have done some good to us. india is india today because of British.
