what the hell the author wants to achieve by raking up the well known facts?. all the religions were ill-tolerant and cruel at certain point of history.the religious beliefs will undergo gradual changes as the economic base gets changed.
it is my firm belief that you hate Islam because it is not undergoing or accepting changes as you want it to be. you hate one when you are afraid of one!
the present threat to mankind comes not from Islam but from the captalist-profit mongers like Mr.Bush and co. it will be of utmost help if the author exposes the deeds of multi-national companies instead of harping on grand-ma tales. these old tales takes you nowhere but only adds to increase the seperation of hindus and muslims in India. this is the politics of Sangha-parivar and i wonder what politics Mr. Author is pursuing afterall?
RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Unsung Humanist on Feb 27, 2007 01:13 AM Permalink
This is not a question about which is more evil: terrorism or MNCs. The issue is about articles such as these promote hatred between teh communities, and that widening chasm building more stereotypes.
From fanatics to religious bigots, you now have another weapon to beat the Muslim: Aurangzeb defenders. Another tool to help you equate Muslims with terrorism. That is the danger.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Unsung Humanist on Feb 27, 2007 01:40 AM Permalink
Bigotry is there in every religion. Hindu bigotry doesn't attract international attention as much as Islamic one, is because Islam is a global religion.
The imperialists have always supported undemocratic Islamic regimes for their own interests. For the vast populations of these undemocratic countries, the only outlet allowed was anti-Americanism. If fringe elements have taken that to extremist lengths, they feel they have a rationale.
Yet, this post is not in defence of them. I am just explaining the beginnings of Islamic terrorism.
In India, the scene is entirely different. You cannot equate whats happening outside India with the Muslim mindset here. By fostering Hindu-Muslim understanding, both communities have a huge model to show the world. This is a great opportunity that is hardly addressed by the Aurangazeb article.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Unsung Humanist on Feb 27, 2007 02:14 AM Permalink
Here's some education: Islam has no such thing as hierarchy. God is supreme and everyone else is equal. Even the prophet is only a messenger.
There is thus a clear distinction between the Creator and the Created. The hierarchy of the mosques or the kings that practised and chose to propagate the religion through the sword were fundamentally political in nature.
Equality, one of the key principles of democracy, is then deeprooted in Islam. Its set of rules and individual discipline should be seen in context of a chaotic Arabia, when Islam took its birth.
For a practising Muslim, who believes in his faith, does five times Namaz and charity as the religion requires, I dont see any reason why it should not coexist with a democratic setup.
Moderate muslims are silent here, because there is a severe shortage of informed leadership in this country. The orthodox bigots does all the talking, and the Hindu Right responds in kind.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by nadia sani on Feb 27, 2007 02:51 AM Permalink
For Heaven's sake, how short-sighted and ignorant you people are! No one is talking about today's situation. The question is regarding an exhibition on Aurangzeb. You cannot change history. If you are so concerned then learn from the disastrous period. You Muslims also descended from Hindu forefathers, probably Auranzeb killed your ancestors when they did not convert, so someone in the family did. That is the truth. Look beyond appearances with an open mind. Just because one is Hindu, Christian or Muslim doesn't mean that you overlook every dastardly deed done by someone of your religion! It is because we are so narrow minded that there is so much suspicion and hate today. We are all first and foremost Indians. This is a piece of our history whether you like it or not. The ONLY question is why you will not allow an Indian to organise such event and why you accept a foreigner doing it.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by nadia sani on Feb 27, 2007 04:43 AM Permalink
Layman, Yes I have not in France and no I was not, and this IS the issue.It's people like you are India's worst enemies.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Secular Indian on Feb 27, 2007 05:01 AM Permalink
Your humanitarian message is an enlightened one and if possible the best way forward for India to grow. But I can't see how you can reconcile an ideology that claims to be the exclusive franchisee holder of the truth. Lets for a moment forget the loonies in Afghanistan, lets talk about Pakistan. Pakistan started out with an approx. population of ~15% Hindus. by 1991 it was down to 1.5%.
Look at Kashmir, what about the Kashmiri pandits, refugees in their own homeland.
So I agree with your noble sentiments but I find it hard to see how it's going to come about. I would love to be pleasantly surprised and proven wrong.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Secular Indian on Feb 27, 2007 05:07 AM Permalink
Why isn't Saudia Arabia a paragon of democracy ? You can't get more Islamic than that. Islam flourishes in plural society but a plural society by definition can't flourish under Islam. It's not a symmetric relation.
RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by biju nair on Feb 27, 2007 07:56 PM Permalink
My Dear Dongre,
I would advice you to read religious/Holy books of all existing world religions and find out which one of them(there is only one) which spits venom at non believers of their own religion.
Then tell the world which religion is a threat to world peace and mere existance of human kind.
RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Unsung Humanist on Feb 27, 2007 12:44 AM Permalink
I agree, Dongre. By harping on grand-ma's tales which already form part of the deeply rooted stereotypes, the intention is clear: To deflect focus from the issues that really affect us, and further widen the dangerous chasm between the two communities.
We do have very intellectual learned souls here, defending the author's right to fully use the freedom of the internet. Yet, sitting on a preachy pedestal, they find attempts by a few hardcore apologists for Islam to explain things in rhetorical English, unpalatable. So much for informed debate!
RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by nadia sani on Feb 27, 2007 02:41 AM Permalink
This is history whether you like it or not. If you are so silly as to apply it today then you are probably exactly the type of person that you are warning us about! What Gautier has done is nothing extraordinary. What irks is that a foreigner can go to the Chief minister and get permission to do what he wants in our country whereas an Indian would never even get an appointment or be ignored. Therein lies our weakness. That Aurangzeb and indeed Shah Jehan himself were horrendously cruel we all know. Indian muslims should take an interest in pre-Muslim period as that is their past too. If we learn this then I can say that the exhibition has worked. Though why it should be in Delhi is a mystery. Another query, did Gautier avail himself of Indian expertise (no mention is given) or is it merely the same old foreign interpretation of Indian history that is being dished out as being the learned truth under the auspicies of the Indian government/ agencies? Certainly I know French history, but I doubt that I as an Indian would be allowed to set up an exhibition in Paris on its aspects. That is the second lesson to be learned.
RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier's article on aurangajeb
by Secular Indian on Feb 27, 2007 04:53 AM Permalink
Good points but why worry about the French they are quite well versed in their own history. They are quite aware of their place in the world. There is a lot more to be done in India and if a foreigner is doing it for us. We should thank him, learn from his efforts and do something ourselves.
A good topic in France would be their involvement in Algeria and Vietnam.
