Having read a lot of messages about holocausts and killing of Hindus , Muslims etc this is what I have to say. Is our objective to kill and incite hatred against Muslims or to kill hatred itself? You cannot reverse history but you can learn from it. The idea of India is that all Indians can live together irrespective of religion. Maybe the idea of say Saudi Arabia is not that. That does not make them superior. The moment their oil runs out they will be living in caves. Indians will not be as long as we believe in developing our people..and our people cannot be developed by inciting hatred. It is obvious that the Arab countries have to go a long way before they become civilized..and by the way Indian Muslims are far more cultured than Arab Muslims..because they are Indian and subscribe to the idea that is India. Having said this it does not mean we are in a weaker position and can't confront these terrorists. Please remember that in kargil the idea that is India triumphed over the idea that is Pakistan. The inclusivist country won the exclusivist lost.
RE:The idea of India
by ded de on Feb 16, 2007 02:38 AM Permalink
I really dont understand why you think india has won. what is your benchmark. india has won if you compare it with pakistan and you are as blind as not to be able to see more. first go and visit the xtianised north-east and islamised kashmir. then go to countless villages and districts of india (particularly in kerala and bengal) where the demographic balance has turned upside down and see for yourself the future of india. a few years of double digit figure of some hypothetical statistic doesn't claim victory, when the very existence of the country under the present dispensation is in doubt.
RE:The idea of India
by hellboy on Feb 16, 2007 02:10 AM Permalink
Thats the point bro. History teaches .Nazis killed 6 mn jews but they dont bay for germans blood or try to wipe them off the earth. Its just that they keep reminding the world and themselves about it so that it doesnot repeat. They are a stronger country now. Hinduism once spread from afganistan to indonesia. Where does it stand now? marginalised in its own country and yet how many history books in our cirriculum tells us about it. It just teaches lies like moguls were seculars whereas the very moguls scripts praise their king for having having destroyed temples and killing kaffirs. We have to keep reminding ourselves that hinduism is a shrinking patch and we need to be vigilant or we wont have anywhere to run.
RE:RE:The idea of India
by ded de on Feb 16, 2007 02:28 AM Permalink
history teaches that it repeats . when everything that would cause it to repeat is just as good as when it was first made. the same traitors are ruling now ,with same greed and lust for power , with the same divisive tactics and on the same masses. unless people are educated about the consequences right now and thoughts of people like Rohit are changed for good time is not away when we are going to loose the very India whose cultural superiority that he boasts of and 100 years after another Rohit will be writing about the same thing sitting in a much reduced India if still any part of that would exist.such pacifist thoughts are nothing but a by-product of years of extreme social engineering by our clever secular politicians done by manipulating for years our education system, history records,media ,social and economic structures etc .
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Rohit on Feb 16, 2007 07:13 PM Permalink
You have missed the point. The ideas I am putting forward are not pacifist by any stretch of imagination. This is what I mean:- a)Ban all organizations using religion for politics. b)Remove religion from education--let religion be only a private matter c) Aggressively promote the idea of a secular society--and when I say secular I do not mean that we should pander to all religions equally but pander to no religion. d) Remove all caste/religion based discrimination and make economic deprivation as the only criteria for helping people.
RE:RE:The idea of India
by Rohit on Feb 16, 2007 07:00 PM Permalink
If you look at the emigration that has happened in the last 25 years you will realise that hinduism has actually spread far and wide in America,Europe and Africa. This has never happened in the past. So raising a bogey about Hinduism getting exterminated is nothing but an exaggeration. The Nazis did the same thing when they wanted to exterminate the Jews. It took a full generation to wipe out the destruction wrought by the Nazis. However our Government must certainly take a firm stance against Muslim, Christian or Hindu fundamentalism. That they do not do this for votes causes all the problems.
RE:The idea of India
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 03:18 AM Permalink
but indian muslims also need to understand this. They like pervez musharraf, the perpetrator of kargil, while denouncing our own leaders.
RE:RE:The idea of India
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 04:06 AM Permalink
I've never seen a muslim who appreciate Musharraf or any other Paki leader.... I've not seen any Muslim with a photo of Osama with them who treat him like a hero.... So why the discrimination...
Terrorism is a global menace & most countries have to deal with it... Even in India we had ULFA, NSCN-IM, LTTE, Naxals & other terror groups much before the Kashmiri terrorists...
All I see in this forum is hate & a will to exterminate muslims in India. Why 'coz fanatics in Pakistan are responsible to bomb, divide& break this nation... I ask why they need terrorists, ISI or fundamentalists to do this... they have succeded in poisoning the minds of people already... People in this country are more than willing to help them get rid of Muslims... its a tit for tat situation....
We read history & don't want to learn from it... We want only revenge... we believe that it will make situation better... Throughout history we see wave pattern where extremists reach a peak & then there is a downfall so great that these fanatics could never bounce back....
Nazi's tried it killing 6 million jews, Rawandan tried it killing 1 million Tutsi's, Taliban tried it.... have they succeded..
Ours is a developing country, we need better health, education, jobs & peace but we will not help each other reach these goals.. Politicians & fundamentalists will always play comman man... so should we blind ourself...
Who has the solution.... The discrimination is not in the society but in our minds... Unless muslims & hindus start trusting each other & help each other we cannot be the superpower we dream of....
Fundamentalist organisations should be banned for all communitites & we should start thinking for the country first followed by people & then religion.....
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Steve Andrews on Feb 16, 2007 08:17 AM Permalink
That is why we need to eradicate organizations such as SIMI and whatever else exists!! Now the problem is Muslims also don't want existence of any other relegion, which is bad on their side. All other relegions like Christians and Hindu they practice their relegion but don't other relegions let down. The aim of muslims is to convert all others to muslims, what they don't understand what will they achieve with that, you yourselves are fighting amongst yourselves..Shias and Sunnis. So basically muslims should leave ideology of converting others.
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Kaushik Das on Feb 16, 2007 07:47 AM Permalink
False: The Asian Age had an article from seema mutapha saying 'Musharraf is a good man'. And Outlook carried photographs of AMU students proudly holding osama posters. When laloo got an osama lookalike, he was swarmed by muslim voters. . Yes, terrrorism is a global menace but it is only with muslims that they are fighting in the name of islam. All the other armed insurgencies are just that: insurgencies for control of land. They are not for control by a religion. . It is not a will to exterminate them. It is a will to have muslims realise that they have been following a wrong path that is causing harm to the whole world - and a will to have them convert back to an Indian way of life. On hatred, there's enough of it in the koran itself which actually explicitly calls for extermination of followers of other religions. . We don't want revenge. We want a peaceful future which is not possible if you guys carry on with your ways. So, you should convert to a peaceful religion - there are many. . Developing country - yes - but how will it develop if you want to control the content of education (cannot write the truth about islam and its conquests, books by taslima and rashdi are banned, sun revolves around the earth, earth is flat), health (population control cannot be practised), jobs (you want reservation in the army), peace (hahaha), ... How will we develop, man? . Yes, so remove the discrimination that the koran teaches you. How can we trust you if you keep bombing us every now and then? . As of now, fundamentalists exist in islam and christianity only - these are the two religions not ruled by science (truth) but by medieval notions - changeability is not allowed either. And SIMI HAS BEEN BANNED. So you should be happy for starters.
RE:RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by Rohit on Feb 16, 2007 06:51 PM Permalink
You are right about Islam and Christianity being ruled by medieval notions. But you are missing the point. The point is to remove all religion from public life. This should we ban all pandits ,mullahs and priests who bring religion into the public domain. Let religion be only a private matter. No one should try and influence/control or even discuss religion in public life. Secularise totally. That cannot be done by practising reverse extremism on a hindu platform. But that can certainly be done by agressive secularism and putting all religious preachers out of business.
RE:RE:RE:The idea of India
by F17 on Feb 16, 2007 02:30 PM Permalink
I am not supporting SIMI or any fundamentalist organisation for that matter. If you take the pain in reading my earlier input on this forum thread you would know I had denounced SIMI.. The idea I am opposing is to paint all muslims as terrorists & Anti-India... If you start generalising the community for the evil deeds of handful then its not only wrong but you are instilling an insecurity..... The picture of AMU students does not say the whole community support them.... Its like saying all hindus are against Valentine's Day 'coz a handfull are opposing.... SIMI was generated in AMU & Outlook exposed it... how does this mean that the whole of muslim population endrose SIMI.....
I had said earlier whatever written in Koran is on a context just like any other religious book.... If you do not understand the context you cannot understand the meaning.... Like in Geeta If anybody just read that Krishna told Arjun to kill his relatives but there was a context for which it is valid...
Terrorism is the poison for the society & I don't mean just armed terrorism....
