I think reservation is essential for another few years at least. Well, what is the most effective way of doing it? We all Indians have to think about it. May be partially social and partially economic based reservation would be a better alternative. But them some of the pro reservationists argues that Indian system of affirmative action is actually partially social and partially economic based. I had looked into the statistics of this reservation thing, alarmingly, the reservation is only to a maximim of a particular community's representation in a particular state. So, if a particular caste has apopulation of 4 percent in a state, the maximum reservation they get will only be 4 percent. I mean, what's wrong in that, if they are socially and economically incapable to shine themselves in academia, make them, it is our responsibility! It is true that most of the higher caste in India, even these days have a superiority complex. Sometimes, people even go as far as saying, lower caste individuals are not as intelligent as higher caste. Now one of the reasons why India's scientific progress back in the millenium didn't go further was that the knowledge was limited to group of people, we have to stop that happening. Certainly, I agree that the current reservation system can bemade more effective, what are the alternatives? 1. To give reservation only once, either for education or for work (and even in education, give only once (either at graduate level or at post graduate level) 2. Effective economic control (This is probably not going to happen in next 5 years) 3. Universal primary education But whatever it is, the way I look at it is, marginalisation of lower class is a problem the country face, we have to solve it somehow, which will lead to a better India
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by sandeep p on Apr 24, 2007 10:42 AM Permalink
hi Sudeep M, I will not agreed with u sudeep. because i myself being a backward caste. Think of people who cannot afford education even though they belongs to higer classes. I have seen so many people. So, I think it is better for reservation and scholarships should have to based on economic basis rather caste. The best example is my class topper who scored 90%(agg) in engg faced many problems due to his economic standard even he belongs to high class And so many. What about them, where is ur heart for them.YOU have qouted "Now one of the reasons why India's scientific progress back in the millenium didn't go further was that the knowledge was limited to group of people, we have to stop that happening" then i will ask u about great people who belongs to lower caste's presently serving our country, can u tell me the increased in GDP, why MNCs are so interested to invest in india. Nowdays poorer are getting poorer and richer are getting more richer. So the reservation should have to be made on economic basis and also
u qoute
"I had looked into the statistics of this reservation thing, alarmingly, the reservation is only to a maximim of a particular community's representation in a particular state. So,if a particular caste has apopulation of 4 percent in a state, the maximum reservation they get will only be 4 percent. I mean, what's wrong in that,"
so i asking u what about IITs where the present reservation is 22.5(almost) if the new reservation system comes into apply, then it will be 49.5% "Do u know how many total seats IITs contribute it is hardly 5000 and do u know how students yearly appear to the exam. If this is the case not even hardly 2500 seats are not avialable to open category " think of People who dreamed of getting into IITs from there childhood. What happens to them ???? Do u know sad there will be feeling if there didn't get it.
Nowdays people are also changing and there are not thinking of caste system as it was in old.
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by Prasad TS on Apr 24, 2007 10:07 AM Permalink
Certain points provided by Mr. Sudeep are good. Particularly, the sentences "It is true that most of the higher caste in India, even these days have a superiority complex. Sometimes, people even go as far as saying, lower caste individuals are not as intelligent as higher caste" are very relevant and unfortunately seen sometimes even among educated upper caste people.
One reader goes to the extent that "Sudeep M is a low caste evangalist of marxist class analysis". Arguments come to surface because of differences in some opinions. But is this a way of putting one's views? OK, let's assume Sudeep is a Marxist. What's wrong with that. Perhaps it's a thousand times better than becoming a CIA agent!
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by Murli Krishna on Apr 24, 2007 09:49 AM Permalink
Sudeep, I appreciate your unemotional and pragmatic approach. But we still have a problem, our constitution, which states that no one should be discriminated against based on caste/creed/religion etc. I agree that we have the problem of social discrimination, but that is a social problem. By resorting to resrvation, our govt is actually institutionalizing this discrimination. And I am not really sure that the majority of the "backward" people are getting the benifit of reservation. This is a scourge, which sadly is an economic version of Hitler's holocaust.
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by srinivasan mv on Apr 24, 2007 09:25 AM Permalink
Do not talk about caste based reservation. Take people on merit, and if they deserve, give them educational scholarship.
I think that is the best way. Big barons do not deserve Reservation whatever be their caste.
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by Sudeep M on Apr 24, 2007 09:29 AM Permalink
I agree rich people do not need reservation. But, Srinivasan, how will you then overcome social barriers to education?
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by DV Bhartiya on Apr 24, 2007 09:58 AM Permalink
Supreme court is not against reservtion neither the students who has filed a petition for the same. It is the caste base which the people are protesting. the caste system was driven by the profession of a person in ancient times but after independence anybody can opt for any prefession there how it matters his caste. Nowwhere in our 5000 years civilisation, caste certificates were being given to the people duly signed from deputy collectors office except after independence for petty politics by our politicians irrespective of the profession of the person. If we go with the old principle, shoe maker were recognised as SCs, then why don't you give reservation to the kids of those people who are working in shoe making factories like liberty,bata action or rebock.
RE:RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by biz Narayan on Apr 24, 2007 09:43 AM Permalink
Sudeep M is a low caste evangalist of marxist class analysis.
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by jibanendra mahanty on Apr 24, 2007 10:02 AM Permalink
The so called "Social Barrier" has been created by the Groups demanding Reservation. By implementing reservation in its present form, the imaginary Barrier will be physically established. Hence Reservation on caste/creed/religion are divisive policies, which every Secular ( true secular) democratic citizen shd condemn.
Instead, a lot of affirmative actions can be taken by a Progressive Govt and these are: 1. Set up Quality Primary and Secondary Schools in every Panchayat of the Backward and Tribal Districts of the Country. Provide free education with living Allowance to each Student from BPL Families. 2.Set up Quality Coaching Centres in each Backward and Tribal District, to impart proper coaching to Aspirants for joining Engineering/Medical Institutes, free of Cost. 3.Provide proper School Buildings, facilities and teaching Staff at all Govt.Schools in the Country. Now most of the School Buildings in Tribal and Backward Districts are in shamble and are worse than Cattle shed. 4.Provide Incentives to Teaching Staff to serve schools in remote areas, like Bastar, Kalahandi,Malkangiri,Serguja,Ambikapur, etc. 5.All students qualifying to join Engg/Medical/MBA from the BPL Families, shd receive complete FREE education at the Professional Institutes.
By implementing such action, the so called social stigma will get obliterated and we will have a United and integrated Society, free of caste discrimination. Students from Deprived Section can join the Main Stream with pride and dignity, as they have joined the Course thru Merit NOT thru Charity.
But, our so called progressive Govt and the Sickular HRD Ministry, will not do that, because these affirmative actions will not increase their Vote Bank.
So the true patriots of the Country shd try to understand the Game Plan of the Power Hungry Govt and Leaders, and shd not play into their Hands.
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by biz Narayan on Apr 24, 2007 09:19 AM Permalink
Reservation is fine, as long as independence uis given. Let the govt give as much it wants to anybody, thats its prerogative. But let it be honest with itself and let Arjun Singh be noyt appointed to others ideologically.
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by Sudeep M on Apr 24, 2007 09:25 AM Permalink
The democratic way of doing it would be the way Arjun Singh did it. Which I don't necessarily think is right. But, Indian high class express their displeasure through we blogs and discussion boards on internet. Low class express their anger of discrimination by voting to someone who'll give them more reservaton. (It's not rocket science.. it is stupid caste politics)
RE:Caste, Class and Affirmative Action !
by Ambuj Saxena on Apr 24, 2007 10:05 AM Permalink
Sudeep, in my view what needs to be done is that people who are backward economically need to be given high incentive to go for higher studies so that those with money do not have unfair advantage over them. If the government makes education till masters level free for economically backward people, I don't think that there would be any opposition. But what the government is trying to do is to divide the society on the basis of caste and curb merit. It is not the case that lower caste people are not as intelligent, but most of the actually backward lower caste people do not have access to primary education, thus making them disadvantaged in compared to their urban and well-off backward class counterparts. Look at any place with reservations, and you will see that most of them were not at all backward, and did not deserve to be given a preference.
