I have only one question to ask. Reverse roles and assume that Muslims were in majority and Hindu's in Minority, will any muslim reject the fact that there will be Shariyat law, and open discrimination of Hindus. Look at Pakistan as a case in point...After reading the below link, let me know ur answer all u secularists... http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2007/2158/
RE:Secularism
by chaitanya kumar on Apr 11, 2007 03:08 PM Permalink
Malaysia with 55 % muslim population has the islamic law imposed on entire nations and others have very less rights. Especially the Hindu Tamils who live there where their temples are being bulldozed without notice.
RE:Secularism
by Hans Solo on Apr 11, 2007 04:23 PM Permalink
Have u ever been to Malaysia???
When I have been there couple of times, I had seen Tamils (or Punjabis) leaving a much decent life unlike many back in India.
I failed to came across any Hindu Tamil living in shanty slums, discriminated in education and jobs, or Tamil locality lacking any civic infrastructure and essential necessities of life.
There is no Political party in Malaysia which is calling for sending-off these Tamils/Punjabi origins back to India. Or on every given opportunity doubts their patriotism.
As per my under-knowledge, Malaysia in all its modern history never had any riots wherein the Majority Muslim targeted the Hindus.
RE:Secularism
by Kaushik Das on Apr 11, 2007 04:47 PM Permalink
Hans, Their life may have a better standard than in India bu that is because the overall economy is better. For example, blacks in the US may be discriminated against but their standards (including those living in harlems) are still much, much better than the poor in India living in slums. . Now, as far as slums are concerned, in India, because of no economy for several decades, there were only a few centres where money could be earned - Mumbai, Delhi, etc. Thus, these and other cities become natural target for people from the rest of the country, leading to slums. The presence of slums has nothing to do with religion or discrimination - there are many, many hindus living in slums, including the kashmiri pandits thrown out by your co-religionists. In fact, the Indian govt has regularised many slums in the past, leading to the slum dwellers suddenly becoming landlords and trodding upon poor tenants. . I failed to see even a single case of discrimination in education and jobs in India. All are free to apply, regardless of community, and write exams that are common for all - the best candidates go through. Where is the scope for discrimination. On the contrary, there is discrimination against women in education and jobs - which needs to be looked into. . They are not calling for the deportation of these tamils / punjabis because the hindus there do not live for India - they live for malaysia. THAT is their country. So, there is no point in doubting their patriotism. Also, for the record, no political party in India has called for the deportation of any muslim (except the illegal immigrants) although I feel it is high time some people should openly doubt the patriotism of a certain community based on its actions. . No, malaysia did not have any riots but they quietly imposed shariat on the country and even called a dead hindu a muslim by burying him and not allowing his hindu wife to fight the case because she was a hindu.
RE:RE:Secularism
by chaitanya kumar on Apr 11, 2007 04:30 PM Permalink
it's a fact that Islamic rule is implemented through out Malaysia though the nation has only 55 % muslim population and it also fact that temples of Hindus there are being removed in thousands for the past couple of years, more rampants in the past few months where they are being razed in the name of some excuse and illtreated in many other ways. You have a point that per capita of Hindus there is more than the Hindu in India. But i don't understand how these attrocities are justified because of that. Why only Hindus, even the moderate Muslims who follow indigenous traditions are being suppressed by the rising fundamentalist conservative people in Malaysia and Indonesia.
RE:Secularism
by Hans Solo on Apr 11, 2007 05:05 PM Permalink
If you believe that Malaysia is following a Islamic Rule, then sorry bloke it brings to light your understanding of Islam and a sharia' state.
Couple years back the current PM has quoted that Malaysia is a Islamic country but not a Islamic State.
If this has confused you, then let me explain. A country whose culture is influenced by Islam can be called a Islamic country, but a country whose governance is based on Koran is an Islamic State.
Malaysia' law for all its ethnic minorities is not as per Quran.
As for the demolition of Temples, its not uncommon in India where Dargahs are demolished on the same excuses.
And since you brought out Malaysia as an example of Hindu minority (and both countries got independence around same period), now I let you think over which country has better treated its minority over the decades.
RE:Secularism
by Mahesh Jagga on Apr 11, 2007 05:39 PM Permalink
I have been following this discussion keenly.
I object to the statement "As for the demolition of Temples, its not uncommon in India where Dargahs are demolished on the same excuses."
Dear Hans, this is typical secularist strategy and it reveals a hidden psuedo secularist behind a rational person.
The dargah you are referring to was one out of 1021 religious places demolished as road widening drive. These belonged to all religions.
Only a psuedo secularist will take a phrase from a complete context, twist it according to his wishes by totally removing it from all context and then generalize it for public consumption.
RE:Secularism
by Kaushik Das on Apr 11, 2007 05:32 PM Permalink
1. Then go there, hans - go to malaysia and live there. 2. Yes, the dargah was demolished AFTER 24 TEMPLES WERE DEMOLISHED in Vadodara. Yet, riots happened only when the dargah was demolished, not when the temples were. 3. A state influenced by islam is a state influenced by arabia - which is like leaving your own culture - even the good things of it. 4. From your point, there does not seem to be a difference in the islamic state and islamic country because koran is at the centre of both. how can you have islam without koran? 5. "ETHNIC" MINORITIES? What the hell do you mean, man? The arab influence has suddenly become "ETHNIC" majority, is it??? 6. India has undoubtedly treated its minorities much better than ANY other country in the world - that is why we have SO MANY SUCCESSFUL PARSIS, CHRISTIANS and even a couple of well-respected muslims like premji and kalam. In fact, the only community that has not done well, muslims, have been promoted with money and facilities and freebies like no other country would. Since the muslims have not become better in spite of all these facilities, it is a sign of their own weakness and incorrect priorities.
RE:RE:Secularism
by Kaushik Das on Apr 11, 2007 04:49 PM Permalink
Hans, Their life may have a better standard than in India bu that is because the overall economy is better. For example, blacks in the US may be discriminated against but their standards (including those living in harlems) are still much, much better than the poor in India living in slums. . Now, as far as slums are concerned, in India, because of no economy for several decades, there were only a few centres where money could be earned - Mumbai, Delhi, etc. Thus, these and other cities become natural target for people from the rest of the country, leading to slums. The presence of slums has nothing to do with religion or discrimination - there are many, many hindus living in slums, including the kashmiri pandits thrown out by your co-religionists. In fact, the Indian govt has regularised many slums in the past, leading to the slum dwellers suddenly becoming landlords and trodding upon poor tenants. . I failed to see even a single case of discrimination in education and jobs in India. All are free to apply, regardless of community, and write exams that are common for all - the best candidates go through. Where is the scope for discrimination. On the contrary, there is discrimination against women in education and jobs - which needs to be looked into. . They are not calling for the deportation of these tamils / punjabis because the hindus there do not live for India - they live for malaysia. THAT is their country. So, there is no point in doubting their patriotism. Also, for the record, no political party in India has called for the deportation of any muslim (except the illegal immigrants) although I feel it is high time some people should openly doubt the patriotism of a certain community based on its actions. . No, malaysia did not have any riots but they quietly imposed shariat on the country and even called a dead hindu a muslim by burying him and not allowing his hindu wife to fight the case because she was a hindu.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Hans Solo on Apr 11, 2007 05:20 PM Permalink
You claim "kashmiri pandits lives in slum" - show me one. its a myth that Pandits where thrown out of kashmir, they left due to the policy of Governor Jagmohan and all efforts by the GoI was taken in their rehabilitation. The Kashmiris (muslim) though seems not so lucky of moving out of a strife-torn region.
"I failed to see even a single case of discrimination in education and jobs in India" - thats so unfortunate and shows how most are unaware of ever decreasing socio-condition of Muslims. Many muslims are caught in this vicious cycle of lack of good job(money) which leads to lack of good education which then leads to lack of more good jobs.
I am aware of elementary Schools in Bombay which prefers not to take students from so-and-so locality (which happens to be Muslim majority). Even though that Child's parent are financially capable of providing good education. They are then forced to place their child in schools which has sub-par level.
RE:Secularism
by Sirish R on Apr 11, 2007 07:41 PM Permalink
man forget about all these man!!!.. are you guys born Violent or bred Violent by your religion.. Read this. I can't see any reason other than your peaceful islam!! http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-04-11T184945Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0 _India-293863-1.xml&archived=False
pathetic as it goes!!! this is not just a propaganda.. it's a plain today's news in reuters.. why should non-muslims believe in all your lies!!!
RE:Secularism
by Mahesh Jagga on Apr 11, 2007 05:57 PM Permalink
One more example of taking one incident out of context and generalizing it.
One school may have done it. So what. You will blame all non muslims for it. In Delhi, courts passed an order two years back asking all elite schools to admit specified number of children from poorer sections. That order is yet to be implemented. So go and pronounce to the world that "underprivillaged are denied basic education in India". Western world will love you for this.
Muslims are behind - no doubt. But if the clergy influences the parents to send their children to Madrasa instead to common schools, whose fault is it?
If some one really wants to find out about denial of opportunities to muslims the criterion is not the number of muslim doctors / engineers / scientists vs muslim population. It should be number of muslim doctors / engineers / scintists vs no of muslim matriculates.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Kaushik Das on Apr 11, 2007 05:54 PM Permalink
1. Policies are not executed by governors, hans. Stop lying. Mosques cried out to muslims to throw out the hindus. Why can't you guys accept truths? You won't accept it even if there is on proof against modi but you want me to accept that 'policies' were responsible for the exodus and death and rapes of kashnmiris??? Come on, give me a break. If a policy is affecting only the hindus in a muslim majority state of India, then there is a problem with the majority. . The muslim kashmiris caused the strife - so, how can they leave the place now? First they fought with the hindus, now they are fighting with the army. I have been to kashmir and it was a beautiful place. That it became strife torn has to be because of the majority there. ever come across the word 'responsibility', hans??? . What steps has GoI taken for their rehab when muslims don't even consider it a part of India? THAT is the reason why the army needed to be out there, so that you guys do not sudenly become a part of pakistan. 'unka iraadaa pak tha'. :-)) . The problem of lack of good jobs and money is a problem of poverty, not religion. Yet, the poor hindus educate their children, unlike the poor muslim. That cannot be attributed to discrimination, unless you are talking about discrimination ensuing from the quran itself, because of which muslims grow up with a superiority complex and do not feel they need to learn anything outside the quran - hence no education - hence, no jobs. THIS is the problem now. The economy has just opened up and because of lack if education, muslims are not finding the jobs they would have got if the children were educated when the economy was not good. . Thus, don't attribute to discrimination what is attributable to poverty and the lack of initiative in your own religion. . In fact, socio condition of muslims has not decreased. It has decreased relatively because the economy has opened up and non-muslims have benefitted - so the difference has increased. But muslims have not deteriorated in condition - they were uneducated then, they were uneducated now - and because of their own policies. . In delhi, most middle class people are not able to enroll their children in the best schools because of hefty donation. You can say it is discrimination against the rich or a lack of good schools - either way, only the rich are able to get through along with a few of the middle class. . Even a few of these schools do not take anybody from the poorer areas even if the parents are able to afford the fees. They have their logic and so do their admonishers. However, the point is that it is NOT based on religion, but poverty. . If muslims keep their areas dirty, how will they create a good impression while getting into such schools? How will they affect the other students if enrolled. . Another point is: Have you overlooked the fact that most criminals are muslims? People from these so called 'muslim majority' areas do not pay their phone bills, loans EMIs, etc. Thus, they are boycotted by banks and cell companies as well (negative areas). Why blame schools? . You tell me, how did you go to malaysia as you stated earlier? How was it possible for you to have access to internet if you have been discriminated against??? . Discrimination in jobs for muslim is NOT known. If you differ, please furnish proofs. Also, the same is a criminal offence if it so happened and the matter should be taken up with the authorities.
