Just like the average western/Indian journalist, you still haven't understood what secularism means. This can be perfectly explained by your statement about Sonia.
India has been secular since ancient times and doesn't require the Constitution or Congress or Left parties to be secular. You need some lessons in Indian history and you need to find out properly why people have started to retaliate against evangelism and jehadis.
As for Gujarat, Modi keeps on winning there. Gujarat had nothing to do with national election results. It was more to do with the middle class not voting in numbers and the NDA allies doing terribly.
I think you need to go around the country again and understand the pulse of India better before coming up with cheap views/articles like these.
RE:Ultra cheap work
by Joseph Maprayil on Nov 17, 2006 06:13 PM Permalink
Dear Kevin, Thanks for the post. First things first. I am an Indian but I do not wear any colour code to reveal my Indianness or patriotism.
People who dont have anything to fall back raise the history card. For fools History is a weapon, for the learned History is a lesson. Yes, I have heard of Ashoka, and someone called the Buddha too. What you have to learn from Asoka is that he did take pleasure in killing, till remorse overcame him. Ashoka stands out because he used all possible means to spread the message of love and ahimsa. Even after Kalinga, he would have had a lot more scores to settle, my your way of history.
People living with the burden of their inferiority complex over the domination of the indian peninsula by foreigners lean too much on history. It is not just the british, but the french, portugese, mughals, genghis khan, alexander....we were under the yoke for a pretty long time.
Talking of Indian History, supposing (just supposing!) that at the time of our indep, Indian peninsula was divided into say five almost equal parts, each ruled by a different foreign country. Could we have got indep as a united nation. Think Goa, think Junagarh (heard of it?
RE:Ultra cheap work
by mayank on Dec 05, 2006 03:41 AM Permalink
If you think the british is the best thing that happened to india....research the word patriotic a little more or may be you are going to the catholic church too much...
And please do not call yourself indian and insult my forefathers who gave their life and blood so I could live in a free country...like bhagat singh , chadrashekar azad and a lot more. Some times I feel its good that none of them are alive...for their hearts would ache to see how less you understand of your own civilisation which was secular before the word secular was invented.
It would be very interesting to learn your version of Indian History.
The History of India starts from 1947. Prior to that we were slaves of foreign countries for a couple of centuries and then managed some kind of a unity under the freedom struggle. Further going back, where was India? Agreed, there were great civilizations in ancient times that developed (and perished) in isolated lands presently falling in India & Pakistan. Can we say that those were Indian civilization. During those times, who outside the settlements knew about the civilizations? We dug it up. Regarding our religious and other literature, Great; no doubt. Rather, the Best. But who wrote them, where and how many did read or study them in the good old times? A few, in petty kingdoms, isolated gurukuls etc. I do not know where you reside, but definitely interested to know when did your ancestors started reading. Do not talk of History.
The forced occupation of the overall territory by one single major power resulted in our joining hands to get freedom; and to get it as a single nation. Now think on another angle, through History. Isolated lands, cultures, people. Indian History?
What is Joseph talking about? India as a civilisational entity has existed for about 5000 years. For the majority of that time, India was governed by Indians and populated by Indians. You mention Ashoka and Buddha as if those were the only characters in Indian history. What about the Guptas, Pratiharas, Cholas, Palas, Rashtrakutas, Vijayanagar? What about great epics like the Mahabharata and Ramayana, and playwrights like Kalidasa and Bhavabhuti, story books like the Kathasaritasagara. I could go on and on. There is an India, so start acknowedging it.
RE:Ultra cheap work
by Kevin on Nov 17, 2006 02:26 PM Permalink
Joseph Maprayil's knowledge about Indian History seems to be astounding. The summation in his last paragraph says it all. 'Thank the brits that India is a country'. My dear Joseph, before asking the guy who posted the message,about his ancestors, please let me from where did your ancestors come from? where were you educated? The word India was a gift of the brits and the europeans who could never pronounce the names in the local lingos. Agreed there were many kingdoms. But people from the south went to Kashi and people came down south to Rameshwaram even 500 years back when the foriegners were not around (There are records of this) . The kingdoms of those days did not have passports and visas you know. Just surf the net to see all the ancient texts, travalouges, in their original form and in English, Translated specially for learned people like you. The maps of the old tell you what was Bharata khanda. Have you heard of Ashoka? The complexities that India is because it encourages thinking and thinking differently. It accepts you, me and the Indian who ever it is.
RE:Ultra cheap work
by kadwa sach on Nov 17, 2006 10:25 PM Permalink
Joseph,
Another thing, history is not an escape from truth. It is the best and wisest teacher you can ever have.
Nor is pointing to history an attempt to put arguments no longer valid in modern time. Human psychology, thinking and the way relationships of humans and states work has not changed since we began creating civilization and states.
Those who try to run away form history and cast this kind of doubt about history being useless are the ones who usually have something to hide in their history.
RE:Ultra cheap work
by kadwa sach on Nov 17, 2006 10:20 PM Permalink
Joseph,
I think the basic mistake that you and the journalist who wrote the piece are making and which "indian" pointed out is that you misunderstand secularism and "secularism in India". When they talk about congress and left being "secular" and BJP being fascist. Also Sonia Gandhi becoming teary eyed and trying to save her falimly's "secular kegacy" is just so much crap when you think about what in reality secularism should be. Is it appeasement of minorities and vote bank politics?
What "Indian" said is that in older times the whole cultural block that comprises India and pakstan today was probably the most secular region that world has ever seen. Now maybe you can pick out isolated incidents form history but the spectrum of religions, languages, classes, beliefs cultural diversity from food to dressing pont that people were very tolerant and did not consider it holy duty to say - no you are wrong and I am right. That in essence is real secularism.
There may have been many kingdoms prior to British but history shows changing of size and expanse of kingdoms over difffernt ethnic regions all the time in India. yets there was no systematic unseculat cleansing of any kind.
