desperate guy, I agree that we always had wars. ppl got killed in world wars , Mahabharata or whatever but the kind of war that Jihadis are bringing was never seen before.. Killing people in suicide blasts/plane attacks/trains attcks. How do you justify that? There is something wrong with teachings of islam..even in India..when mugals came they used to forced conversions ..mass murders by most of the mugal leaders. Every new religion has grown and expanded christians/Budhhism but none of them used violence. Mougals didn't even spare places of worships and education in their rule. Even taliban was destroying Budhha statues few months before 9/11 attacks. How can a good religion have so many bad followers??
RE:To Despate Guy
by desperate guy on Feb 22, 2008 08:33 PM Permalink
Desi, again you using the same peace of argument..Mughals did this..muslim invaders in other lands in history did that...i dont know what are the authentic unbiased sources of history you have, but didn't aryans invaded India and killed and forced them to worship their gods??? and there are thousands of such incidants.... and hindu people did not forced others to accept their religion because they though all others are inferior and not worthy of having this honor...so this is the conservative mentality not the "live and let live" philosophy you boast thatswhy..the history does not show your reason of war as religion.. besides mughal attacked India for land and kingdome purpose...there was not a trace of spreading Islam..and ISLAM WAS NOT SPREADED BY SWORD OR WAR....this is absurd and biased exageration to disparage the image of islam and distort its effect is being most widely accepted religion by people of all nations, race and mentality... about suicide bombing..did you ask any one of those attackers why they chosen this path? when your home, freedom has been taken and your family woman being raped in front of you and yoru childrens are being slaughtered will you only take a banner of protest in hand and stand for years and years infront of UN buildings and foreing ambassies??? everyone loves his life ..no body like to destroy his body into peaces and die a painfull death unless it has become inevitable....otherwise you want them to die slowly slowly under constant
RE:To Despate Guy
by Gladiator on Feb 21, 2008 09:15 AM Permalink
If the Option is to Convert to Islam or Kill, means then why are you still alive.. Option-1: Muslims ruled India for 1000 Years, if your assumption is true means, then all the 90 crore hindus should be dead or converted into Muslim. Option-2: If the Hindus were successful in retaliating Muslim Invaders and retained Hinduism, then why there was 1000 Years of Muslim Rule ?? Option-3: The last assumption is all the Hindus lived a Nomadic life and Hiding for the Muslims... This is also false... Go to any Indian City, you can see the Palace of Muslim Kings near to Hindu Settlements for Centuries..
The Moral of the story is Nobody is compelled to change the Religion... That is why you are here alive and as a Hindu...
Every Hindu in India is a Living Proof that Compulsion is not used...
RE:RE:To Despate Guy
by Golden on Feb 21, 2008 09:20 AM Permalink
dont talk to these liars. they do understand the truth but hide it for their dirty motive so that common people can be misguided. you know one meaning of kafir is "the one who hides the truth" and these morons are kafirs in real meaning.
You are wrong. During the Mughal rule, Hindus were forced to convert to Islam. This is backed by history. Check in any encyclopedia. There was a tax to be payed by non-mulsims, it was called Jijya (or, Zijya). Those poor non-muslims who could not pay this tax, were given two options:
Either convert to Islam Or, get cruel punishment.
This was an indirect method to convert the people to Islam.
RE:To Despate Guy
by desperate guy on Feb 22, 2008 08:14 PM Permalink
Beachy Babes, "There was a tax to be payed by non-mulsims, it was called Jijya (or, Zijya). Those poor non-muslims who could not pay this tax" In that era everyone was poor...hindu as well as muslims..only the kings and their closer ones were rich... and so if you object to the payment of Jizya by POOR NON MUSLIMS in a muslim ruled state..so now we muslims should also not give tax to the government in present hindu ruled India... but i know it does not make sense...but it shows you how pompous and baseless is your knowledge..and particularly you always calling " poor, helpless, mild, polite, torelant hindus " in such cases..and then calling them brave retaliators and freedom fighters who resisted agaisnt muslim tyranny in other contexts....TWO SIDES OF COINS ARE YOURS..HEAD TOO ...TALE TOO....
RE:To Despate Guy
by Golden on Feb 21, 2008 09:32 AM Permalink
let me tell you something, you guys are confused for long about: first thing first: yes, have you been forced to convert then there would not have been 80% of the public out of islam today. which encyclopedia you aer re fereing man. better look into history. these encyclopedia and dectionary keep on changing their meaning depending their requirement. fundamentalism started from christianity but today they refer it to directely islam. shame on these educational institutions who are so much engaged in this dirty maligning business. second thing: zijya...may i know if govt has got any tax to collect from its public or not? how will the govt run otherwise? indian govt asks me to pay IT can i curse it for this tax and abuse it for this tax? do you have any other tax paid to muslims? no you are just enjoying with simple jizya. do you know what muslims pays in muslim regime? he pays, Zakat, Khairaat, Sadaqa and add these. even zakat the obligatory tax itself is much more than your jiziya. since zakat was an islamic tax so non-muslims were not forced to pay it so they were paying a lesser amount of jiziya to the govt. where is the wrong in this. you dont know anything but simply try to malign msuilms and islam by getting motivated by your dirty leaders. some muslim king were appeasing hindus and did not put this tax but some did and how can you curse this. can i curse indian govt for taking IT from me? correct yourself and follow the truth, liars will taste the dust very soon.
RE:To Despate Guy
by desperate guy on Feb 22, 2008 09:44 PM Permalink
Mohan Kini, again ..talk about present..what is your perception and what you have to say about, BJP RSS and its leaders..VHP Indian Military torturing Kashmiri Muslims? Arial sharone George Bush Tony Blair Collin Powell UN resolutions and international laws bein clearly violated by Israel and America.... Sikh Masaccre in 1983 Raj Thackrey's supporters killing north Indians?? and thoussands are there....you know for yourself if you read newspapers and suppose we give verdict about Aurangazeb that he was GUILTY..do you ahve time machine to take Indian military with you back..and attack and capture him and bring him to justice by Indian Constitution? don't you see there is no logic in you peoples always accusing of past and history..that means you dont have any solid things to accuse us in present and you try to hide your faces and say something for sake of argument by mentioning history only?????
I mentioned that only the poor non-muslims who could not pay the Zijya tax had to convert to Islam. Those who could pay the tax were allowed to keep their religions.
That is the reason that today only about 15% people are muslims, and 80% are still Hindus. And I think, that is also ONE of the reasons, why the muslims in India are realtively poorer than the Hindus. (This is my observation only).
second point:
The tax called Zijya was only for the non-muslims, in addition to the land taxes (for all). Even Hindus had to pay "pilgrimage" tax for going to Hindu pilgrimage sites.
Excerpt from article by Richard Hooker:
The most important part of the bureaucracy was tax collection. Akbar made several innovations. His tax, like all other states, was a land tax that amounted to one-third of the value of the crops produced on it each year. However, the tax was assessed equally on every member of the empire%u2014a radical innovation considering that every other state in the sixteenth century rarely taxed the nobility. He also eliminated the tax assessed on non-Muslims. From the beginning of the Islamic expansion, a special tax was levied on non-believers. This special tax, called the jizya , was bitterly resented all during the history of Muslim rule in India. In addition, Muslim rulers in India charged a "pilgrimage" tax on unbelievers travelling to various Hindu pilgrimage sites. Akbar eliminated this tax in 1564. -----------------
RE:To Despate Guy
by Bharat Engineer on Feb 21, 2008 10:04 AM Permalink
To Gladiator: "Every Muslim in India is a Living Proof that their forefathers where converted by hook or crook..."
The killed their own brothers because they were dishonest. But they do not kill others just because someone does not belong to their own faith/religion.
Ask yourself, what do you think about a Jew? Do you not have hatred?? I know you surely have.
Hindus do not have any hatred for any religions. I have many of my close friends who are muslims.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:To Despate Guy
by desperate guy on Feb 22, 2008 08:43 PM Permalink
Beachy babes, @"Ask yourself, what do you think about a Jew? Do you not have hatred?? I know you surely have. Hindus do not have any hatred for any religions." Bravo...didn't you read the messeges of other peoples here...and count for yourself no of hatred messeges against muslims in this blog verses unbiased secular messeges... doesn't it looks quite contradictory to your own statment above???...hahahaha..Hindus dont have any hatred for another religion...very funny.... but i will add..a little correction...NOT ALL HINDU have a hatred for other religion particularly muslims...this one looks correct and satisfies the responses of other messeges in this blog... about jews...i dont know from where you get these assumptions... again it is exageration.. we dont hate ALL jews...and it is a fact...
RE:RE:RE:RE:To Despate Guy
by lawrence fernandes on Feb 21, 2008 10:11 AM Permalink
That idiot Golden teaching Islam. It's known fact that at present the world's biggest threat is Islam. Madrassa teaches hatred and motivate students to kill other religions by saying "Kill your other religion enemies and those who are martyred will be greeted by dozen virgin angles at Jannat". I would say it's high time those Muslim intellectuals come together and say in public the wrong teachings of Madrassa's. These people will never allow to live peacefully.
RE:RE:RE:To Despate Guy
by desperate guy on Feb 22, 2008 08:20 PM Permalink
Beachy Babes, @"Even now, muslims have a killing attitude towards the Jews, just because they are jews" looks like you never heard the zionism???? and watch the following documentary in Google video as a proof... "Peace, Propaganda & Promised Land"
AND muslims do not have killing attitude towards all jews....that is an exagerated assumption towards yourside.... and always talk after making two way inquiries..and collecting unbiased data...dont start blowing your own trumpet as soon as some poison is put in your ears...
RE:To Despate Guy
by JGN on Feb 21, 2008 12:13 PM Permalink
The general policy of most of the rulers during the 700 years of Muslim occupation of India was to systematically replace the fabric of Hindu society and culture with a Muslim culture. They tried to destroy Indian religions, language and places of knowledge (universities e.g Nalanda and Taxshila were totally destroyed by Muslims). They destroyed and desecrated places of thousands of temples including Somnath, Mathura, Benaras, Ayodhaya, Kannauj, Thaneswar and in other places. There was wholesale slaughter of the monks and priests and innocent Hindus with the aim to wipe out the intellectual bedrock of the people they overran.
The Muslims could not subjugate India with ease and were never able to rule it entirely. There was a valiant and ceaseless struggle for independence by Hindus to deliver India from Muslim tyranny. The Rajputs, Jats, Marathas and Sikhs led this struggle in North India. In the South this struggle was embodied in the Vijayanagar Empire. This struggle culminated when the Marathas ended the Muslim domination of India.
I do not hold the present day muslims in India responsible for the atrocities committed by the invaders. They (or their ancestors). were the vicitims of such atrocities. The Muslim rulers did not care for the common muslims. Once having established they were only interested in filling up their harems with beautiful women and building monuments, etc!
RE:RE:To Despate Guy
by Bharat Engineer on Feb 21, 2008 10:06 AM Permalink
To: Golden Number of people embracing Islam is growing like anything... because they don't have any choice, if they are born to Muslim parents, who don't know about family planning.. :-)
RE:RE:RE:To Despate Guy
by desperate guy on Feb 22, 2008 08:37 PM Permalink
Bharat Engineer, Thanks for dirty comments that depicts your ethics and manners... any comment about Illegitimate births and premarriage abortions in western countries and even in India increasing day by day??? But i won't corelate it with HINDUISM...but surely it is the present hindu people mentaltiy for unnecessary freedom, their culture and neseince towards their own religion....
