ONLY ADAMANTLY SHORT SIGHTED COULD IGNORE THESE POINTS. AFTER ALL HUNGAMAS IN NEXT FEW WEEKS, IT IS DESPERATE TO ANALYSE ALL OUR TEAM FLAWS SENSIBLY AND WITH SOME SORT OF OPEN MINDEDNESS.
No failure of tact or strategy by Faceless Spirit on Mar 27, 2007 12:25 AM | Hide replies
This guy is wrong. No failure of tact or strategy can be the reason of defeat. Question of failure arises only when there is tact or strategy. Nono of these things existed ever in Dravid Chappel regime.
Secondly,Ganguly inherited a battered team torn by match fixing controversies which even Sachin refused to lead. He hand picked players like Yuvraj, Kaif, Nehra, Balaji, Zaheer, Harbhajan. He insisted Sreenath to stay on. He made effective use of Kumble Laxman in suitable situations and pitches. Even Dravid was a very shaky and slow one day player. Gangly protected him from being dropped and lost. He even made him to keep wicket just to justify his place in the team. Dravid Chappel from day one started disturbing the rythm of the Indian team. The team hand picked by Ganguly fetched initial good results for Dravid also. As time passed by the entire enthusiasm evaporated. Everybody became shaky. None was sure about his position. All suffered from identity crisis. Pathan was destroyed in the process. So many mistakes they have committed it would be another Mahabharat. Only foolish regional robots like would disagree with me. Ganguly used his limited strength brilliantly. He knew how to get what from his team mates. He used his brain in field setting ball changing. He encouraged everybody to perform. Dravid is no no way near Ganguly, you must admit today after the debacle.
RE:No failure of tact or strategy
by Suman Bhat on Mar 27, 2007 09:37 AM Permalink
captiancy myth Captaincy record for gangul y and dravid statistics prove dravid did equally good job in 16 months compared to ganguly ' 5 yrs Dravid within 16 months did good job and equally good odi success what ganguly has in 5 yrs. Ganguly had full support of bcci and dalmiay prsd with ganguly for all 5 yrs of his captaincy. Nobody ex cricketer or board officials dare not speak against ganguly's blunders He continued to enjoy captaincy even his late 3 yers he was out form and non performing but he was forutnate that dravid sachin, kumble laxman sewag were all in form and contributed lot his success as captain more than ganguly leadership qualities Team won 23 out of 76 odis when sachin was captain Team won 76 odis out of 147 matches when ganguly was captain Team won 33 odis out of 65 ( including this WC matches) when dravid was captian Both sachin and ganguly had more time as captain Out of 76 matches 38 matches won in india and 31 odis wins are against weaker team like kenya, nambia and Zimb Dravid did not loose any odi series at home ( even SA it was drawn 2-2) and 2 matchs against ZImb Team India did not win in SA when ganguly was also captain. Team had humiliated defeat by Kiwis( 56 all out a record) aussies, WI, Pakistan when ganguly was captain. Team had some lost test and odi series when ganguly was captain. John and ganguly build a team and watched how it collapsed. Team was ranked 8th in ICC odi ranking and it was broken ship when dravid made capatian Bangladesh beat India when ganguly was captian. Still it is not so good team Even team goes under dravid captain there is chance of winnin After SL series dravid removed from captaincy and made captain for Zim tour which India could have won even when dravid ware captain. Ganguly responsible for the outset of kumble, laxman, nayna mongia from the odi team he also spoiled the careear of Akash chopra, hemang badani, partiv patel, muali karthik, Ajay ratra, S gopan ramesh, SS das Even dravid encouraged yougnerst like raina, munaf, sresant, dinesh karthick, robin, also recommended payush chawla to share the ind team dressing room though even he is not part of team.Statistics prove that dravid did equally good job just withing 16 months compared to ganguly%u2019s achived ment in 5 yrs and that he has no godfather in bcci the way ganguly had dalmiaya.
RE:No failure of tact or strategy
by manuj bahl on Mar 27, 2007 11:58 AM Permalink
I fully agree with your statistics which put all the blame on players and gives clean chit to Rahul Dravid. If only this team would not have been divided in to the Groups we would have done better but that do not take out the air of the views which do point towards Rahul as the culprit number One. Captain of the team is responsible for the performance of the team. Its Dravid's failure to not able to get best out of from his team members. He was clearly short of ideas on field and his defensive ness cost the team a lot specially when Sri Lanka had lost three quick wickets. Captain in cricket plays a very important role. He can't be passive like Dravid and has to take the decisions on his feet every time. Rahul Dravid is best batsmen in present Indian cricket team but alas he is not captainct material. At present we require someone who is mercurial and have hot blood going on in his vains. Indian cricket requires Rahul Dravid the batsmen but no way we shall have him as Captain. Game is over for Dravid. Its high time for him to go back to his groove and score more runs for India. India needs him more now then ever, but not as Skipper.
RE:No failure of tact or strategy
by Ifear paceman on Mar 27, 2007 10:47 AM Permalink
Dear palit you can not fight a girl who has brought forward a point. You resorting to abusing. Be brave or hang up.
RE:No failure of tact or strategy
by Suman Bhat on Mar 27, 2007 09:36 AM Permalink
If india wins dravid won't loose captaincy. If india defeat dravid will be out and gangulysome prominent players only ditch dravid and played negative circket played a big role in defeat Ganguly is cunning politican there is more groupism and politcs in team after his return. Ganguly played a big role in defeat of of team ind against bangadesh and sabotage Indian campaign in World cup. ganguly is main culprit for defeat against bangladesh. He is politician he his supporters played negative cricket deliberately to defeat the team and humiliated dravid and chappell. He played for self and scored consistanly but not a single innings was not held for team victory. How can his negative approcha helped team?? Hew as playing silly shot getting out when team required his service. His innings was shaky.ganguly wasted more balls than the runs he scored. The strikerate and average of bangadesh and other country opening players are better when compared to ganguly averagel His poor fielding and poor running wkt and unwilling to take singles cost more runs to team Yuvraj Scored 47 runs in 10 overs Rest of team scored 50 in 19 overs Against burmada he scored 89 in 114 balls wasted 25 balls that is around 4.6 runs per over... compare it to the indian teams average of 8.26 Ganguly was struggling while batting against burmuda, and got 3 lifes Harbajan singh went wktless in 2 matches dhoni failed with bat Zahirkahn was wktless in firest match and in he took 2 wkts against SL but he gave more extra runs b'cuz of erratic bowling. VC captain sachin failed completely with bat
RE:No failure of tact or strategy
by babu rengaraj on Mar 27, 2007 09:07 AM Permalink
As a captain ganguly is 100 times better than dravid , no doubt in that
1) Change pitches in India. They are too batsmen friendly where our batsmen score centuries and the same batsmen score 0s overseas. So simply bringing youth and energy will not be effective. We al saw what happened to Dhoni, Uthappa, and other young batsmen abroad...Same argument goes for our bowlers in India, we don't have good bowlers and those who want to become good bowlers are not motivated because they get thrashed from batsmen in India. These bowlers have chances abroad, but have little time to adapt to foreign pitches and better teams.
2) Use different types of balls: India should start using both kinds of balls beng used to play cricket. In india, the balls are different from those used in Australia for example. So, our strategy should be to use both kinds of balls in cricket played in India, whether it is domestic or ODI games. This way, our batsmen will have adopted techniques to face bowlers from different countries and our bowlers will have the ability to perform well against different teams all the time.
3) Find/train/select spin bowlers. What happened to our spin tradition? We need to develop bowlers who can spin the way our past Indian spinners did. Again, with points (2) and (3), we should focus on the art of spinning and train our young promising spin bowlers accordingly providing them financial, mental, and moral support they may need.
4) Create all-rounders. Kapil Dev was our last known all-rounder and a great one. Why we don't have any all-rounders? Consider points (1) and (2) and develop players like Pathan and others who want and have the passion/talent to be an all-rounder. Currently, I am amazed to see how many all-rounders other teams have (Aussie, So-Africa, New-Zealand - yes NZ, and England), for examles.
5) Give top prioirity to fitness in players. Our players have the talent, but many don't have the stamina to field and take catches in the air. It is inherent problem with Indians so we should not be too harsh on the players, Instead, the players must go through hard exercise routines like in Military and put to various tests all the time to keep them athetlic, fresh, and energetic. Those who "DO NOT" pass the tests must be dropped until they do. Those who do pass the tests should be allowed to compete with other fit players to be in the team based on performance and role that each player plays in the position that they play in.
6) Develop realistic strategy and role clarity. I am not sure why the coach and others were experimenting with the top order all the time. Swtiching players is good if the results are positive, but what was the point? Just like we cannot ask a batsmen to bowl or vice versa (with the exception ofcourse of alrounders), we cannot expect a Dhoni who can play with the old ball to suddenly deliver with anew ball against a top (or any) international team. Players roles must be defined (to a large extent) and efforts must be channeled to help motivate and train players to exceed the expectations of that role.
Good analysis of the world cup debacle by India. Agree with pretty much everything you have said. For me biggest surprise was non-inclusion of Suresh Raina!!! He brings in passion and energy into the game, is an excellent fielder and obviously a very useful batsman. The outcome of the india-srilanka match would have been different, if Yuvraj had not thrown his wicket. We can play the blame game for ever, I personally think its time to move on with our lives and hope for a better future for indian cricket.
No matter young blood or old blood are medium blood are inducted into the team, the performance is going to be the same if the pitches back in india are going to remain the same. We need some bouncy pitches back home else we can confine to playing only in India by inviting the other test playing nations. We need that extra effort in our fielding to save 25-30 runs on the field. If you had seen the match between Aus and SA yesterday (Aus eventually won the match) India were no where near a match to them on any aspect. Better it didnt qualify for the super 8s. Aus and SA are going to beat the crap out of Bangladesh. The team needs severe retrospection and we should have two teams; one for test and one for ODI. I see no point in sacking Dravid from the captaincy. A captain can cheer you up, set your fields, and support you. Its the individual who has to deliver and unfortunately our batting collapsed against SL. Had anyone (Dhoni atleast) been there with Dravid, the story would have been different. Change the pitches, change groupism, make the BCCI meetings and selection as an open house project transparent to all people, seek the advice of previous captains, appoint a fielding coach, have the pacemen go and train at MRF pace academy and more importantly make our players work out physically. World cup is going to happen once in every 4 years. Things do change and its just that we need to adapt to the change. talking of old achievements is crap. So its better late than never. Arise and awake stop not till you win the WC.
What do you mean chappell and Dravid need a second? Are u living in a different world? I am from NY, been here 20 years since I was 8 and following cricket online and watch whenever its on TV here. I saw the 2003 world cup final? What strategies did we use after Harbhanjan gave up 2 sixes to Ponting and the rest as they say is history? Did Ganguly pressurize Aussies by setting different fields, using a little sledging? What was the vice-captain doing? We were in that match until the 35 over and than the fireworks started? To top that Tendulkar gets out in the first over? Than I saw the world cup matches between Bangladesh & SriLanka and can I ask you what tactics did they use when that 17 yr old was hitting his way out against our bowlers? Dravid looks like he is crying half the time? I feel I can be a better captain than him. He could have added slips, rotate bowling frequently change the field. In the US the coach is the central commander and that is why athletes succeed because they have the desire. THey will practice harder to get better everyday not to be perfect but to try and give 100%. Thats what counts. I am not saying losing is a good thing but when you lose the way team india its just pathetic. No effort, no gameplan. Why would u bat first against bangladesh? And why would u field first against Sri Lanka? Did they think about this? All in all athletes need to workout more so they can get more endurance. I saw Australian fielding and South African batting 2 days ago and let me tell you these guys play like American athletes totally. Ponting and Smith are always working with players, using tactic according to the situation. What is Dravid doing? If the players themselves don't give a rat's ass why should we fans?? I suggest following Australian cricket!! Everyone plays their hearts out, throw their bodies to stop the ball and bat like champions!! Hope this message reaches the players.
RE:Reality Check!!
by Chiradeep Chhaya on Mar 27, 2007 06:24 AM Permalink
I agree with you on following Aussie cricket, heck even Aussie Rules, to at least see some commitment on the field. I hate the Proteas but I'd give them 11 on 10 for their efforts in the field. I used to explain to my Amriki friends what cricket was all about and why I stayed up at nights, but now I don't have the guts to even breach the topic, given our team's performances.
I feel it's BCCI, who is responsible for all this mess. First, we play far too many matches for the sake of making more money. Second, most of the time players are busy playing international matches which does not allow one to correct mistakes. Third, the interest level & standard of domestic matches have suffered as international players are never available. Finally, top officials in BCCI is far too busy playing politics and trying to cement a permanent place so they can stay on and make more money !
Strongly disagree. A strategy is only so good as its execution. We just dont have players good enough to play and execute strategy. We might have a plan to blast out SL or Ban in 15-20 overs, but with Ganguly and Utthappa batting, that plan is obviously not going to work. We may do loads of analyses but the truth however harsh it may sound is that our best are simply not good enough - both in terms of potential as well as ability to play to that potential under pressure. Man - to - man, only a dreaming fool will think we are better than teams like SL, Aus, SA or WI, even on paper. 1)Ganguly cant even connect or take singles. Stats will show that he has the lowest strike rate of all openers since fielding restrictions were brought in. 2)Sehwag and Dhoni click once every 20 matches 3)Rahul Dravid is not a match-winner, just good in supporting roles 4)Sachin - well just look at the way he batted against Bangladesh. He has been failing since 2003. 5) Utthappa etc - werent excatly terrifiying
Out bowling is probably the weakest of all major cricketing nations. Harbhajan Singh and Anil Kumble are way over-rated. Munaf- Would any other team think of playing him in a one-day.? The pace attack - Zaheer, Agarakar, Sreesanth is decent but not deadly. There is not even one strike bowler. Not even Bangladesh is scared of this attack.
And here is the saddest part. Do we have a better team? The answer is NO! There are pehaps one maybe two players in domestic circuit with some spark (puh-leaze dont start saying VVS, Kaif, Raina etc - tried and tested failures..) but no real bench-strength. The sad truth is we lack quality. Only Yuvraj Singh currently is world-class. Rest might be best in India.. but not good enough on world stage. And I ask, who is responsible for this state of affairs? BCCI! This is a failure of the BCCI, whose main responsibility is development of cricket. There is utter failure in this respect. Pawar should lear from his Pak counterpart and resign. Own up your mess. Resign or the Indian Govt should sack him..
A well written analysis above. I agree to whatever has been said.
In one of my earlier messages I had mentioned that not playing as a team was an important factor in India not doing well in the World cup and that the difference was more than apparent in the match against Bangladesh. I think team selection and the think tank is to be blamed for it and partly Dravid for not being able to motivate the team. The reason why there is such a lack of unity is because India has not has a stable team for a long time because of continuous experimentation. This has also made players (except the 'STARS') feel vulnerable about their future in the team and put them under greater pressure to perform and play their natural game. Also this made all the players unsure of who they would play with in the next game.
I think experimentation IS important because thats how you recognise young and new talent but in my opinion if the coach or the captain thinks someone has talent they should persist with him for a while and get him accepted as a team member.
I suppose Greg Chappell had all good intentions in mind for the Indian team but and his plans would perhaps been perfect for the Australian way of playing cricket but the Indian way and mind-set is different therefore his plans failed to work.
Having said that I think the over all attitude of the Indian players need to change and the survival instinct needs to change to killer instinct.
For the above changes to take place, radical changes need to be made at the top and in the think tank.
RE:Failure of the 'TEAM'
by Suman Bhat on Mar 27, 2007 09:43 AM Permalink
if some players are not support captain and played deliberatly negative cricket and had big role to play how can captain and coach insprie them? Now same players are only to regain captaincy If team wins there is no question of chaagnging cpataincy IT is an deliberate to prove draivd is not good captain compred him previous and there won't no suc good event like WC to caryy out this..Dravid within 16 months did good job and equally good odi success what ganguly has in 5 yrs. Ganguly had full support of bcci and dalmiay prsd with ganguly for all 5 yrs of his captaincy. Nobody ex cricketer or board officials dare not speak against ganguly's blunders He continued to enjoy captaincy even his late 3 yers he was out form and non performing but he was forutnate that dravid sachin, kumble laxman sewag were all in form and contributed lot his success as captain more than ganguly leadership qualities Team won 23 out of 76 odis when sachin was captain Team won 76 odis out of 147 matches when ganguly was captain Team won 33 odis out of 65 ( including this WC matches) when dravid was captian Both sachin and ganguly had more time as captain Out of 76 matches 38 matches won in india and 31 odis wins are against weaker team like kenya, nambia and Zimb Dravid did not loose any odi series at home ( even SA it was drawn 2-2) and 2 matchs against ZImb
RE:RE:Failure of the 'TEAM'
by Sudipto Ghosh on Mar 27, 2007 03:23 PM Permalink
Hi Suman, I accept your opinion and that WAS one of the points I wanted to make: It IS the job of the CAPTAIN to motivate and unite the team and make it work as a unit. The captain is like a leader who knows the strengths of the team and utilises the strenghts to the maximum. I think that way Sunil Gavaskar and Ravi Shastri and Stephen Fleming were very good.
RE:Until Marati
by Rairankandath Satish on Mar 27, 2007 05:00 AM Permalink
There you go - one more from the regional chauvinist stables. These people exist in all the layers of our great country - politicians, bureacrats, cricketers, film stars and now the so-called hero-worshipping fans too. What a shame. This is coming from the so-called educated mass. If this is our condition what about the poor illiterates.
