There could have been some incidences of Forced Conversion at local levels. I do not dispute that. Just like Forced "Nas-Bandee" of emergency time.
Some zealous officials of Aurangzeb might have tried to build numbers...also, some armymen of Mughals might have killed many Hindus only for their faith. Such evil things unfortunately happen in this world.
But as matter of principle, you must restrict discussion to Islam, and not bring in Muslim kings.
If Forced conversion is permitted in Islam, Prophet and his immediate Followers must have done it Most, as they had reached level of supreme power and control in Arabia.
Why you fail to give examples from that part of history, if you have any.
That would be far far more convincing than actions of any criminal King for which Islam is not accountable
RE:@JGN
by Vinu Bhardwaj on Jul 24, 2008 07:46 PM Permalink
But none of 56 intolerant Islamic nations allow it. I am sure you have heard of converts getting killed, even in Turkey.
These nations have 56 US stooges sitting there with protection guarantee.
These Stooges disallow any Religious or political activity except for Prayers in Mosque
I can not carry a copy of Quran with me if I travel to Saudi....and you talk of Spreading Christianity in rule of these cr00ks ...(criminals of History, if you have read about them)
Dear JGN if i am not mistook you have posted this type of comment earlier also like let them embras and blow themselves and one more thing dont you think now you are attacking the religion. I have appologised you in the last post on behalf of WAHAJ but that does not mean that you reply like this, let people do whatever they want to and let you do what ever you want to we dont insist you to embrass islam it is your life and let you move ahead with hope love and success Good Luck
RE:why you repeat what you already posted
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 07:15 PM Permalink
Dear Masu, since I do not beleive in the dogmas of any religion, I find religious conversion itself as a futile exercise. Of ocurse what I wrote was in a lighter vain. Thanks. Bye.
Wahaj Faridy, you calim that you are a pious muslim but you have no qualm is abusing others calling them "Rightwing LIARS" etc!!!! Is this the culture you are talking about?
Have you seen me using abusive words for any one? Even if you do not agree with the other person's views, you can alwyas refute the same in a civilized way.
This type of double standard and the followers of semitic religions ridiculing our native culture really irrittes me. You have no right to adopt a "holier than thou" attitude.
RE:RE:@ Wahaj Faridy
by masu on Jul 24, 2008 07:04 PM Permalink
Dear JGN If you remember last time i posted my comment on rediff i appreciated your views among others and the reason was that you were writing in a good manner no doubt you possess the ethics of writing but i guess you mistook him anyway if still it hurt you i am sorry on behalf of WAHAJ Good luck
RE:@ Wahaj Faridy
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 07:10 PM Permalink
Mr.Wahaj Faridy, there are any number of History books available on the subject. I cannot reproduce the same nor provide irrefutable proof here due to paucity of time and space.
Why are you trying to justify the Islamic rulers just because they bear some muslim name? I am not blaming the muslims in present day India for the same. At the same time there is no need for you to justify that also.
And you or any one abusing me does not make any difference to me as I know what I have written is 100% true. I am not a person who blindly hates any muslim or the follower of any religion as I beleive in the principles of neo-humanism (of course I question the dogmas of all religions and superstitions but don't consider as hatred for the followers of that religion).
If there are any number of History books to prove your point (..that Muslim Rulers converted by force, or discriminated Hindus) then you shuld come handy with BEST of the References.
In my life I have been investigating on such references. This is my finding:
1. Either they do not exist outside Rightwing Propaganda Sites
2. They are circlar references (a siting b as refernce, while b sites a as reference)
3. They have been badly distorted out of context (example Auangzeb dealing with Panjab rebellion by Sikhs).
So my opinion based on research is that communal masaala available on Rightwing Propagandists Websites is just a Bunch of LIES aimed at spreading hatred against Islam
RE:@ Wahaj Faridy
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 07:25 PM Permalink
You are again resorting to unsubstantiated claims. Do you think the book published by a University does not contain facts? I will reproduce the releveant portion another time.
There was even forced conversion in 1921 in Malabar consequent to the Khilafat Movement and even a Caliphatte (consisting of 3 and half talukas and lasting four and half months) was established in Kerala (around the present day Malappuram). The Calipha was one Ali Musssaliar and his Prime Minister was one Varikkunnath Ahmed Haji. While Ali Mussaliar was hanged at Coimbatore prison, Ahmed Haji was short dead by the Britishers.
Rest assured I do not have any hatred for the muslims and will not post false messages. What ever I have written are ture to be best of my knowledge.
There could have been some incidences of Forced Conversion at local levels. I do not dispute that. Just like Forced "Nas-Bandee" of emergency time.
Some officials of Aurangzeb might have tried to build numbers...some armymen of Mughals might have killed many Hindus only for their faith. Such evil things unfortunately happen in this world.
But as matter of principle, you must restrict discussion to Islam, and not Muslim kings.
If Forced conversion is permitted in Islam, Prophet and his immediate Followers must have done it Most, as they had reached high level of power and control.
Why you fail to give examples from that part of history, if you have any.
That would be far far more convincing than actions of any criminal King
Dear JGN I am not here to support india or pakistan but as you were discussing about muslims and the religion so that made me to reply this way.It is always better for all of us live in religion harmony and treat humans as humans and respect each others religion the way we all respect our religion. This is what my religion(ISLAM) teaches me. I wish you luck and success
RE:...
by masu on Jul 24, 2008 06:56 PM Permalink
Yes Dear Wahaj that is good but at the same time i want that we muslims should not loose our temper with all these invalid notes i have been trying my best to let people stop abusing each other's religion. There is no doubt that non muslims have been embrassing ISLAM in a faster manner and this also is true that everyone has to embrass Islam as islam only can help us to have a peacfull world Carry on dear Wish you luck
RE:...
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:53 PM Permalink
Pl read Calicut: The City of truth re-visited by Prof. M.G.S. Narayanan, published by University of Calicut, to know about the forcible conversions of Tippu Sultan in Malabar. Are you telling that a book Published by the University of Calicut is not true?
RE:RE:...
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 07:04 PM Permalink
Pl write to:
The Publications Division University of Calicut Thenjipalam (Kerala) for a copy of the book. It is students edition priced at Rs. 100/- only.
I cannot reproduce the same here due to paucity of time and space.
Btw I am not asking the Indian muslims to be apologetic about the atrocities committed by the Invaders as the same were beyond their control. At the same time, there is no need for you to justify the same just because they bear some muslim name. Pl understand what I am trying to say.
RE:@JGN
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:46 PM Permalink
Why you could not face the truth? Why report for abuse?
The general policy of most of the rulers during the 700 years of Muslim occupation of India was to systematically replace the fabric of Hindu society and culture with a Muslim culture. They tried to destroy Indian religions, language and places of knowledge (universities e.g Nalanda were totally destroyed by Muslims). They destroyed and desecrated places of thousands of temples including Somnath, Mathura, Benaras, Ayodhaya, Kannauj, Thaneswar and in other places. There was wholesale slaughter of the monks and priests and innocent Hindus with the aim to wipe out the intellectual bedrock of the people they overran.
The Muslims could not subjugate India with ease and were never able to rule it entirely. There was a valiant and ceaseless struggle for independence by Hindus to deliver India from Muslim tyranny. The Rajputs, Jats, Marathas and Sikhs led this struggle in North India. In the South this struggle was embodied in the Vijayanagar Empire. This struggle culminated when the Marathas ended the Muslim domination of India.
RE:@JGN
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:51 PM Permalink
Do you have any knowledge of linguistics? Hindi belongs to the family of Indo-European languages (not Indo-Arab)!
RE:RE:@JGN
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:58 PM Permalink
Even English language now contains a lot of Hindi words. Languages develop over a period of time and adopt words from other languages also. Nothing great about that.
RE:RE:@JGN
by father on Jul 24, 2008 06:55 PM Permalink
The language developed out of the structure of the dialect called Khariboli, interspersed with the vocabulary of Persian and Arabic during the period of Mogul rule (15th-18th centuries AD).
RE:@JGN
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:42 PM Permalink
I do not need any character certificate for the Islamic invaders. It was the ancestors of people like you who suffered at their hands. If you want to treat that an honour to your ancestors, I have no objection.
We cannot correct historic wrongs but we should be willing to accept the truth also.
RE:RE:RE:@JGN
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:49 PM Permalink
Pl read: Calicut: The City of Truth re-visited by Prof. M.G.S. Narayanan published by University of Calicut to know about forced conversions by Tippu Sultan in Malabar and other atrocities committed by him armed-force.
RE:@JGN
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:57 PM Permalink
That was not the case. Every muslim ruler knew that by alienating about 92% of the population (the muslim population at that time was about 8% only) they could not rule the country.
Aslo once having established they were only interested in massing wealth, filling up their harems with beautiful women, building monuments, etc. They neither cared for the muslims nor care for converting any one to their religion.
RE:The general policy of most of the rulers
by father on Jul 24, 2008 06:34 PM Permalink
ARYAN came to india and destoryed AN-AYRAN system now they are lower cast, dalit, not touchable, poor real indians are facing huge problem, help them, bring them in power, return india to real indian india still not indepent still ruled by outsiders
RE:RE:The general policy of most of the rulers
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:47 PM Permalink
Still you beleive in the foolish Arayan-Dravidian theory? It has been discounted by historians long back.
RE:The general policy of most of the rulers
by JGN on Jul 24, 2008 06:32 PM Permalink
The library of Nalanda was burning for more than 6 months!!! The university had facilities to teach up to 25,000 students at a time.
