India can not imagine to be recognized nuclear state easily. But then this is a big step. USA will have to put good effort to get India thru NSG and without some kind of appeasing Non proliferation gallery it is not possible.
There are some hazards but then there will be some technolgical offshoot and additional industries (supporting ones will come up. Indian scientist will also pick vital and latest knowledge ..and these USA or an NSG country can not wrap up and take back. Taking back is not easy said and done. So india should not worry ...strong India all country are falling in line ..and in future if India is more stronger then nothing will happen.
RE:Reality Bite
by Observer on Aug 08, 2008 07:14 AM Permalink
Imagine a dishonest sales person approaches you to buy some product or service. He promises lots of benefits/savings and tries to hide negative points. You seem to think that it is a win-win situation for you. But then hidden negative points get exposed, may be after you are in trap. It is duty of PM to take a decision considering national interests (may be in favor of N-Deal). However, MMS seems to be more interested in his own interest and telling lies after lies to the nation.
RE:Reality Bite
by BraveIndian on Aug 08, 2008 07:21 AM Permalink
GUYS INDIA IS DOING THIS TO GET URENIUM TO DEVELOP OUR TECHNOLOGY BASED ON THORIUM. SO DON'T WORRY. ANYWAY INDIA WILL NOT CONTINUE THIS MORE THAN 15 YEARS.
Dr Singh had promised (instead of showing the draft to the house for study) that the deal will be bound by international law and not by any US law like Hyde act. But, now Mr Berman has raised the hidden points in the deal and by responding (no deal will supercede the US domestic law) Bush administration has cleared the doubt that the deal is going to be a thorne in flesh for India. Also, By involving NSG (as Australia has clearly denied any neaclear supply to India and Rice is convincing her counterpart) US will add some conditions to bar India from doing further improvement (tests) in this field. That will happen in the name of agreeing NSG. Also, US wants to involve bigger community in this deal, so that, if India defies this deal and does any test in future they can put sanction more effectively. Also, Mr Berman has clearly raised the issue that there should not be any transfer of technology (as we are happy by thinking so) for enrichment, reprocess of nuclear fuel and production of heavy water. We should not forget that what India has achieved is on its own, not with the help of others. And what respect in the international community we are enjoying today is on the basis of our own development not on the transfer of knowledge. Let us not undermine the ability of our scientists and spend the money on our own research. Not to pay to US or NSG for their rsearch. One has pointed out that we have enough Thorium. Why not to do research with that & make our own fuel? Be gutsy.
RE:Complete illusion
by BraveIndian on Aug 08, 2008 06:32 AM Permalink
MR. RAJESH DON'T GET WORRIED. WE NEED CONTINEOUS SUPPLY OF URANIUM TO DEVELOP THE TECHNOLOGY BASED ON THORIUM. INDIA WAS SO CLOSE TO DEVELOP THE TECHNOLOGY BUT THE RESEARCH WAS STOPPED BECAUSE LACK OF URENIUM SUPPLY. ONCE INDIA WILL GET CONTINOUS URENIUM SUPPLY IT IS MATTER OF 5 YEARS TO DEVELOP OUR TECHNOLOGY WITHIN 5 YEARS. ONCE WE DEVELOP OUR TECHNOLOGY WE CAN TERMINATE THE DEAL OR WE ARE FREE TO DO ANYTHING WITH OUR THORIUM. SO NOW NEED IS ONLY URENIUM WHICH WE WILL GET THROUH THIS DEAL. SO CHILL AND WAIT AND SEE WHAT OUR SCIENTIST CAN DO.
RE:Complete illusion
by Sandeep on Aug 08, 2008 06:37 AM Permalink
You want to believe what you want and have not really understood what is happening. Don't you think US folks from opposition party(Berman is a democrat whereas Bush is Republican) would like to delay this deal?
Also, this opposition by some US politicians is clearly proving that whatever MMS had said was correct. There is no tie-up mentioned between NSG waiver and US law! If it was mentioned so clearly, why would Berman be asking for clarifications?
Here is something more Berman had to say: " Meanwhile other countries might rush in to take advantage of a more lenient NSG waiver and do business with India on their own terms," Berman warned.
"This would give other countries an unacceptable head-start in securing commercial nuclear contracts with the Indian Government, thus placing U.S. firms at a competitive disadvantage," Berman wrote to Rice.
So please read with open mind and then decide what is good for India. Don't be blinded by commies propaganda so much that you fail to see things clearly.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by west on Aug 08, 2008 06:09 AM Permalink
MMS always maintained that there's nothing that stops India from conducting further tests if needed. MMS never said US law will supersede N-deal.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 08, 2008 06:58 AM Permalink
Alright MMS. Why not do a test right now and lets find out. Clearly, we do need to test again since the thermo-nuclear part of the tests of 1998 was a dud. So if there's nothing that stops us, and it is necessary to test, why not do so NOW and then the critics will shut up.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Sandeep on Aug 08, 2008 07:09 AM Permalink
Better idea, wait till this deal is through, import Uranium for existing plants as per IAEA preamble and then conduct the test :) What is the rush?
BTW, our scientists had said they have obtained all the data they need and there is no further need of conducting tests. Yield is disputed by west but why do you want to believe them more than Indian scientists? Conducting Nuclear test in this day and world is not a wise idea whether you have the deal or not. If you want to do saber rattling, it is a different matter. The only country to have tested weapons in this decade is North Korea and look where it stands.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by west on Aug 08, 2008 07:07 AM Permalink
i think you are confused the nuclear tests with some household lamp testing. you cannot test the nuclear tests as and when you like. the need must justify the testing.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 08, 2008 07:18 AM Permalink
Look at the number of nuclear tests conducted by other countries:
US: 1054 (331 of them atmospheric) USSR: 715 France: 210 UK: 45 China: 45 India: 6
I say we are due at least 40 more tests if we are to believe in MMS "future superpower" talk. We should at least get to double digits if we are to be considered seriously in the high table where MMS wants to take us to dine.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by west on Aug 08, 2008 07:30 AM Permalink
yeah? when were they tested? long before NSG was formed.
i don't think anyone would dare to put India to slavery like the colonial rule because anyone who thinks that way knows the end result.
let me make one thing clear - USA doesn't need India to counter balance China. Truly speaking - they give a damn about China rise because they are not in competition with China. Americans always go with win-win strategy when they make decisions. when they made decision to help out china in the 70's they already made up their mind that even if china becomes superpower they are ready to accept that.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Suresh T on Aug 08, 2008 08:36 AM Permalink
First let us provide food, water, shelter and education to the people, instead of wasting money exploding bombs to satisfy the false prestige of a few.
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by All Right on Aug 08, 2008 06:22 AM Permalink
West:
So you are actually agreeing with Keshav. He too is saying the same thing - "MMS never said US Law will supersede N-deal. He always lied to us and said that International law will prevail."...
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Jo Ho on Aug 08, 2008 06:34 AM Permalink
First, let us assume that you're no idiot. Hyde act clearly does not permit nuclear tests by the non-nuclear countries. MMS says nothing stops India from N-tests. Can the 123 ensure anything really about the continuous supply of U-235 in the event of a N-test by India from NSG/any other darn legal sources? The first hurdle will be the Hyde Act itself as there'll be no exemption but by that time, we have already incurred the cost of segregation of reactors and IAEA inspectors are already in. What do you think, Mr Intelligent West?
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Sandeep on Aug 08, 2008 06:45 AM Permalink
Does this help to satisfy your question?
* KEY PASSAGES IN PREAMBLE OF AGREEMENT
"An essential basis of India's concurrence to accept Agency safeguards ... is the conclusion of international cooperation arrangements creating the necessary conditions for India to obtain ... reliable, uninterrupted and continuous access to fuel supplies from companies in several nations, as well as support for an Indian effort to develop a strategic reserve of nuclear fuel to guard against any disruption of supply...
"India may take corrective measures to ensure uninterrupted operation of its civilian nuclear reactors in the event of disruption of foreign fuel supplies."
RE:N-deal will not supersede domestic law: US
by Jo Ho on Aug 08, 2008 07:12 AM Permalink
Isn't it writing the NPT with a different language? Or isn't it becoming a preamble of NPT? Also, we'll have 8 reactors that can be used for military purposes after the safeguards. What happens after the expiry of these? Does India retain the right to prepare more nuclear reactors for military purposes? The language of IAEA chief is pretty explicit in this regard. If India does a N-test, US categorically says that Hyde Acts remains admissible. No controversies and full stop. Why is MMS trying to fool people around? No eye washing necessary. Go and sign NPT, MMS and his Madam won the trust vote. Our next generation will have no sovereign rights. This party is used to slavery (to their royal family) and recent globalization efforts brought in new boss for them from Washington.
RE:Bhatta- Charjee is a beggar
by Sudip Bhattacharjee on Aug 08, 2008 05:48 AM Permalink
It is unfortunate that you are attacking personally. India is asking door to door for nuclear fuel. Thanks to Nehru and his policy, India has become a pseudo socialist country with no muscle power. India needs USA to help overcome the hurdle in NSG.
God Knows if the Deal is good or not, why did the govt lied to people. 1. PM and congress says that its bound by international law, the US the deal is bound by US law.
2.These guys are telling uranium is required for power generation. whaat a lie, it will take around 5-10 for us to generate the power as out come of this deal and that to will not fulfill 10% of our energy requirements, and current uranium reserves all over the world will last at the max 2 decades to fullfill the energy requirements of the whole world. so why are we spending so many 1000s crores and national security at stake. And no county will supply uranium which is meant for military use to India, atleast their political class are not as currupt like indian political class.
RE:is Uranium is really future of energy needs
by Bobby Varma on Aug 08, 2008 05:23 AM Permalink
Ok this seems to the right for my scribbling..
:) well what we gain is the technology access and that is all the deal is about. I think india is looking for a good mix of fuels & technologies here. Thorium although in abundance we r yet to have the techgly to harness energy out of it. mind you no one has the technology yet as they don't have much thorium :). One argument was we may be fuel(other than thorium) dependent on NSG. Fair enuff..
Come out of this perspective....
N-deal is just a pawn in the bigger strategic game. Mark my words. It is now upto India, how it plays its cards. Sardar g started off well. But it is always the end game which matters. Cards to chess :), Well who says the game changes?? Wakeup!! it is a game of games(GOGs - registered :)). The question is do we have the stomach or enuff players with stomach for GOGS. sardarg may one day go for the best of GOGs, curious how looks in GOG(LE)s
RE:is Uranium is really future of energy needs
by Sandeep on Aug 08, 2008 05:49 AM Permalink
Kranti,
Uranium deposits are slated to last 80-100 years and not 2 decades as you incorrectly pointed out. No one would go through this mess if it was only 2 decades.. Countries will supply Uranium to India for civil use, not military use. This has been repeated so many times by now that it is surprising you ask this..
I urgently ask the government to finish this deal as soon as possible and let the country focus on other important issues. Whatever the USA is saying, India should accept unconditionally, because USA is the only country which has agreed to put India out of the nuclear apartheid. We owe to USA for this. If I had been the prime minister, I would have already done whatever needed before even thinking to ask anybody else; you will never get any solution in India by asking people's opinion. Indian democracy is a flawed democracy, where muscle power and money still govern over argument and realism. So, forget all opposition. Mr. PM, the countrymen are behind you, go for the deal, you will be blessed as the most efficient prime minister.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by kranti on Aug 08, 2008 04:48 AM Permalink
get out of the beggar mantality, its ok,if u donot dream of becoming a super power, but having beggar mentality and falling for few biscuits the US throw and staking the countrys security is more dangerous.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Sandeep on Aug 08, 2008 03:46 AM Permalink
I also support this deal but I do not support it if terms change much. I hope a lot of informed Indians think along those lines. I don't think we should agree to anything which is not good for India as India is not exactly in dire straits. This deal should benefit India but also US in some sense so should be seen as mutually beneficial thing.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by bhoothnath on Aug 08, 2008 04:54 AM Permalink
WHEN WAS THE LAST NUCLEAR PLANT BUILT IN USA? WHEN WAS THE LAST NUCLEAR PLANT BUILT IN INDIA? HOW ADVANCED IS THE USA TECHNOLOGY IN THIS CONTEXT?
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 08, 2008 04:32 AM Permalink
It is important to remember that it is the USA which is responsible for this nuclear apartheid in the first place. The whole structure of NPT/NSG was designed by the USA to box in India in response to the Pokhran tests. If the USA is interested in undoing the partheid, it must do so unconditionally. In any case, the corrupt Manmohan Singh government has not an iota of moral authority left. The next government (which will surely not be led by UPA) will find some way to repudiate this dubious deal, and bring back our foreign policy independence.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by sarat babu on Aug 08, 2008 04:38 AM Permalink
Hi, you can definitely speak english but that's the end of it. your iota or rock and rolla's don't make any sense. Corrupt Manmohan singh? You are crazy. he brought india our of bankrupcy when he was a finance miniter.. wake up and look at reality. India needs electricity. Not a neuclear bomb to throw on pakistan..
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 08, 2008 04:53 AM Permalink
Well, anyone who can flash the "victory" sign while entering the Parliament, fully aware of the filthy cash-for-vote scheme engineered by his party to survive the trust vote, and then proudly proclaim victory afterwards, is corrupt to the core in my book.
As for as his patriotism -- this is what he had to say while receiving an honorary degree in Oxford in front of his delighted British hosts --
"... India's experience with Britain had its beneficial consequences too. Our notions of the rule of law, of a Constitutional government, of a free press, of a professional civil service, of modern universities and research laboratories have all been fashioned in the crucible where an age old civilisation met the dominant Empire of the day. These are all elements which we still value and cherish. Our judiciary, our legal system, our bureaucracy and our police are all great institutions, derived from British-Indian administration and they have served the country well."
This same attitude of deference to the Gora Sahebs is driving his zeal for the nuclear deal.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Guest on Aug 08, 2008 05:37 AM Permalink
Tell me what was wwrong in what Manmohan singh said in Oxford. I know that British were in india for their benefit but you must also not forget their contribution to what India is : 1. English Education 2. Train transportation. 3. Law and Order, Infact we are still using most of the laws written by them. I can just go on... Infact there was no such country as united India. There were only princely states. So you can atleast thank them for uniting us and giving us indian identity. Once again I acknowledge that they ruled us harsely but remember they have contributed as well. Look what we have done to UP ,Bihar in 50 years. A state that produced Dr. Rajendra Prasad now has Papu Yadav has MP. I hope u get my view
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 08, 2008 06:28 AM Permalink
In fact almost none of what Manmohan said at Oxford is really true. All the institutions of excellence in modern India -- IITs, IIMs, IISC, ISI, as well as various research institutes across the country such BARC, SINP, Bose Institute, TIFR etc. -- are post-independence creations which did not follow the British model. All British era universities, such as CU,BU,DU etc. are largely dyfunctional. Indian police remains wedded to a colonial British way of functioning and is another dysfunctional system. The English language is actually more of a curse than benefit. Although, it might look very advantageous for IT etc. today, the fact of the matter is that learning science in a foreign language is a great disability -- one appreciates this if one tries to teach at any level. I can go on and on.... What Manmohan Singh was implying is that modern thoughts, modern science etc. wouldn't have arrived in India if it wasn't for the British colonialism. This isn't true. Russia, China, Japan and many others absorbed Western science and thoughts on their own from its creators -- most notably the Germans and the French -- and did not need the intervention of a second rate mercantile power to convey it to them.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Sandeep on Aug 08, 2008 05:57 AM Permalink
Mr Jagadis,
MMS is not like typical politicians and he has a tendency to say what he really feels. Note here that the passage you quote was from a big speech and in the beginning of the speech, he berated British empire: " There is no doubt that our grievance against the British Empire had a sound basis. As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6 per cent in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3 per cent at that time, to as low as 3.8 per cent in 1952. " While in Britain, he gave a balanced view of what a lot of people think. Point me to another speech by an Indian prime minister which pointed out above..
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by D on Aug 08, 2008 08:14 AM Permalink
Mr Jagdish
Any institution (CU,BU..) can be made dysfunctional if there is no backing from the government. I am sure the IIT's,IIM's will be made dysfunctional too in next decade or two with the interference of Political leaders .. read reservation. I am not sure why you blame the police, look at their salary level and the no of hours they have to put in at work. Again why u consider English language a curse is beyond me because even states (China,Russia) have gone on a massive drive of English education in their circullum. I remember a documentary on an african nation which was ruled by the Belgians, when they left the country there were only 13 local graduates in that country and there was complete anarchy. MMS did not say British rule was great for us but he also pointed out some of the benefits of being associated with it.
RE:RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by west on Aug 08, 2008 03:51 AM Permalink
i totally agree with what all you said. but i differ with your conclusion. My take:
a beggar has more options than any home owner. kidding
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by blue wrox on Aug 08, 2008 04:29 AM Permalink
"Indian democracy is a flawed democracy, where muscle power and money still govern over argument and realism"
This guy implies that india is run by goons and lobbies. How about america then??? Bush had 8 yrs on oil money. Goondaism is non existant because of policing.So stop implying that we are flawed and they are perfect.No system is perfect.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Sudip Bhattacharjee on Aug 08, 2008 04:37 AM Permalink
In USA, the law makers are well aware of the need of their country. They do not do anything to hamper the growth of the country. If you can show any incident in USA where a law maker used his own power to gain something which was detrimental to the nation, then I would withdraw my comment. In USA, people do business with ethics. That is not true in India.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 08, 2008 05:05 AM Permalink
"On July 29, 2008 Stevens was indicted by a federal grand jury on seven counts of falsely reporting gifts. The charges relate to renovations to his home and to more than $250,000 worth of gifts he has allegedly received from VECO Corporation."
Stevens is the senior Republican senator from Alaska.
RE:PLEASE FINISH THIS BUSINESS
by Sudip Bhattacharjee on Aug 08, 2008 05:43 AM Permalink
Ok. But you said that federal grand jury indicted him. Which grand jury in Indian history indicted a law maker for making personal profit? Look, bad people are everywhere. But they get punished in USA more often than in India. That is the bottom line.
Berman is a Democrat so he will try to add clauses which cause this deal to delay.
Also, this opposition by some US politicians is clearly proving that whatever MMS had said was correct. There is no tie-up mentioned between NSG waiver and US law!
Berman has urged the Bush administration to shelve a nuclear trade deal with India unless it can guarantee compliance with a U.S. law that would suspend trade if India tested a nuclear weapon again. Berman warned that Congress would not act before its September 26 target adjournment date unless the Bush administration pushed the NSG to attach conditions to its waiver copied from legislation Congress passed on the India deal in 2006. Meanwhile other countries might rush in to take advantage of a more lenient NSG waiver and do business with India on their own terms, Berman warned.
Hopefully, the gullible folks who thought India had sold out to US will be pleasantly surprised by this.
