India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030 up from 132,110 at present. Thus nuclear power is the only way forward for India. Energy needs of India are increasing exponentially and only nuclear power is the way forward. Increased price of oil and gas internationally, issues of climate change associated with coal as well as the breakdown of consensus on big dams, India needs Nuclear Energy. India generates 132,110 lakh MW of power annually. Of this, 64.7 per cent is generated from thermal power, 26.2 per cent is generated through hydro electric power, 5.9 per cent is from renewable power sources and only 3.1 per cent through nuclear power.Nuclear power would contribute 10 per cent of the country's energy needs by the year 2022 and 26 per cent of the needs by the year 2052. Share of nuclear power in world wide energy production was one per cent in 1960 and between 1960 to 1986, it rose to 16 per cent of world's energy production. The share has remained constant since then.There are 439 nuclear power reactors operating around the world and the US accounts for 104 of these reactors followed by France at 59, Japan at 55, Russian Federation 31 and Republic of Korea 20. Out of the 35 new nuclear power plants under construction in the world, Asia accounts for 24 of these. While China is building six new nuclear power plants to get 5,222 MW power for its grid, India too is building six such plants which would add 2910 MW of to its grid.
RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Gopal on Aug 06, 2008 02:39 AM Permalink
How many projects are commissioned after 1997 in US
It starts with the black day declaration surrendering India's freedom and sovereignty US passed the Hyde act. India kept quit. N-deal is to get Uranium which last for 60 years from now Flow of energy starts after a decade. By then Uranium cartels will start dictate price. India will be forced to buy at the dictated price to avoid waste of huge investment made Negotiations for n-projects were done during the year long visit (90 times) of the big boss. The projects are scheduled to be taken up on BOT basis. The conditions for the BOT is secretive and disastrous to India. It limits India's interference in the projects. Government proceeded without political consensus. LEFT moved out from UPA. MMS moved confidence vote. Horse trading in public. Soon the 123 agreement will be passed by US Senate. Nuclear waste from all over will be dumped in Indian soil under the shroud of BOT. As the cost control is with MNCs inflation will rise to unimaginable levels. Devaluation links to inflation. The whole social fabric will be damaged by that time. The government is unaware of the decommissioning cost. $3Billions a year for 10 years. They are not serious about nuclear hazards and terrorism. R&D sector will be slowed down due to fund crunch and HR problems. Slow down in development of technology for Thorium and alternative source. Medias will be bought by the MNCs to play their tunes. India in danger Time to wake up, Indians!!
RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Sandeep on Aug 06, 2008 01:25 PM Permalink
You are having paranoid thoughts. That's all. Nothing you say is based on facts. If you stop your conspiracy theories and screaming wolf stuff, maybe you will see clear picture. Uranium is slated to last 80-100 years currently at minimum. Flow of energy will start immediately when fuel import starts for current reactors which are running at 50% capacity due to fuel shortage. How soon new reactors come up would be likely 4-6 years if private participation is allowed. Decommissioning cost was recently calculated to be in vicinity of $325 million in US which is 1 % of what you are saying is the cost. No project is slated to be done on BOT basis yet. Deal is not even totally through yet. Can you please spend some time researching even a little bit of what you write?
RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Gopal on Aug 07, 2008 01:54 AM Permalink
Don't get annoyed. Read 6.8.08 post of Umashankar ..AP news today Washington: "Even if no new reactors are built, getting rid of the country's nuclear waste will cost $96.2 billion and require a major expansion of the planned Nevada waste dump beyond limits imposed by Congress, the Energy Department said Tuesday.' Or google the message quoted. OR google “Report: Nuclear waste disposal will cost US $96B”
There was a news that 6000MW of capacity added (thermal) is not put to use for the last one year. Just make the people appear to know that there is a shortage. The decommissioning cost is exorbitantly high. Have you read the statement of Dr APJA. Kalam , the URL I gave you already. Thanks
RE:RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Gopal on Aug 07, 2008 02:05 AM Permalink
Mr.Sandeep You asked me about the research. Will you read the book I referred 'Smartest men in Chair” the inside story of ENRON. It cost $30?- You can get a glimpse of the dramas played by MNCs. Also read some history of banana republics of 60s and 70s. How it was when they got independence and after. The downgrade move was accelerated by several MNCs. You can study their modus operandi and satisfy yourself.
RE:RE:RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Sandeep on Aug 07, 2008 11:49 AM Permalink
I asked you about your research of facts related to Nuclear power and not Enron. Enron was a corrupt organization and everyone knows it. Probably you base your information of this on what you hear or on old information. Just remember, india will not be setting up 1st generation reactors. 3rd generation reactors is what you should look at when you start quoting figures etc.
RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Sandeep on Aug 07, 2008 11:45 AM Permalink
I do not see URL by APJ. Can you post again.
Current nuclear power plants decommissioning is in vicinity of $325 million as per estimates given by US power companies which is quite low if you consider their time span of 30-40 years. Link: nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/WebHomeCostOfNuclearPower
Also, I know fuel waste disposal is a problem. But that has not stopped other countries for re-exploring Nuclear power. Both Obama and Mccain support it. See Obama's thought: "We should explore nuclear power as part of the energy mix," he said during last summer's CNN-YouTube debate. Nuclear plants can cut greenhouse gas emissions, he says. Mccain wants to setup 45 new reactors. So obviously they think the risks outweigh the benefits. Isn't it?
RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Sandeep on Aug 09, 2008 04:17 AM Permalink
ok, thanks for the link. I agree that thorium would be best. Uranium is probably a short term bet for India till technology advances to make Thorium viable. This research has been going on for so long that I feel we should go with whatever is available now. Hopefully before Uranium starts being a problem, we will have Thorium reactors replacing it. I feel the technology acquired would help to some extent there.
RE:India would require 500-600 thousand MW of power by 2030
by Gopal on Aug 08, 2008 11:48 PM Permalink
Read Kalam's statement Google “ N-deal pact will not provide the right fuel Kalam” or try the url dnaindia DOTcom/report. asp?newsid= 1149109 suitably editing the url.
Now the ploy is clear. India should build nuclear stations to reduce world green gas effect. Let India decide it after detailed debates in the media. I told you already that I am not against Nuclear energy. We should study both sides.
India need not follow the development strategies dictated by Moody's etc. India's social fabric is different from other countries. Our development should be in line with the system evolved over many centuries. To break it is suicidal.
This deal was imposed on us. It is not a well thought out deal. For some it is. How does it influence the system now when the energy from the deal will flow only after a decade at a huge cost?
The terms of projects etc are NEGOTIATED during the year long visits (ninety times) by our big boss. 20000 MW target can not be achieved in ten years unless unconventional methods are followed. Most probably prefabricated and BOT method will be adopted financed of course by foreign loans. The whole management will be under the control of the company. All senior jobs (appx 300) will be for foreigners with luxury perks ($5000 – $10000 pm) prevailing in foreign countries boosting the over all cost. Most tools & plants and materials will be from abroad even if they are available here. There are clauses in the terms negotiated limiting India's interference. Further there is a clause arranging a separate channel in RBI (refer RBI governor's selection) for remittance abroad from these projects. Heavy foreign remittances and loan payments will add up the total cost making the unit cost unbearable. Refer ENRON project. Learn from experience!!
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Gopal on Aug 05, 2008 04:30 AM Permalink
Have a cursory view of the Dabhol plant (ENRON) As per the PPA (1993) the MSEB was to take 90% of the power generated. Also 16% profit was allowed. The unit price and profit was tied to dollar terms. So it did take care of the inflation. The project was completed in 1999. The Dabhol company projected energy cost of Rs2.65 per kwh in 1993. By the end of 2000 the unit price rose to Rs7/80 per kwh. I do not know the present rate. Any one can furnish?
Total cost of Dabhol was max. Rs10,000 crores. Max inflow of foeign exchange was Rs6000 crores. The foreign exchange out-flow was a staggering 100,000 cores. How it happened? A research will bring out the truth.
We can just imagine the HORSE TDADING that would follow in the $100 Billion projects that follow the N-deal. There was regular change of government in Maharashtra every five years. Similarly we can expect a change in the centre. They are well-versed in the horse-trading that is to be undertaken in India. Also the modus-operandi. Beware , Indians!!!
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Sandeep on Aug 05, 2008 05:10 AM Permalink
Dear Gopal,
Enron project when it came online started billing MSEB at Rs8.00/kwh which was very high and MSEB could not afford to pay thus the project fell through. Part of the problem was Naptha fuel was very expensive, other part was promoters were greedy(Enron folks are resting in jail). Now it is a gas based plant, and supplies at Rs 3.00/ kwh.
However, there is a shortage of gas and so it can not operate at full capacity either.
So you see why Nuclear fuel has to be resorted to? Nuclear is about same cost as Gas based plants.
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Sandeep on Aug 05, 2008 06:39 AM Permalink
The point I was trying to make is that Natural gas based plants are not feasible solutions for India.
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Sandeep on Aug 05, 2008 05:52 AM Permalink
Whether it will be BOT model or Private Industries will be allowed entry is yet to be known.
I doubt it will be Enron like model where foreign company is almost sole stakeholder.
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Gopal on Aug 05, 2008 10:04 AM Permalink
Dear Sandeep The cost escalation was due to remittances made -100,000 crores and other malpractices. Needless to say anything about Enron Chairman DR.Kenneth Lay, CEO Jeffrey Skilling. They are in jail. You are bit silent about the second part. Let us be watchful in the nuclear stations which MAY come by the deal. The unit price is reduced because of state's subsidy as decided in a negotiation. It is not the actual cost.
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Sandeep on Aug 05, 2008 01:01 PM Permalink
I am not sure what you mean when you say cost escalation was due to remittances. Maybe you mean they wanted to remit huge profits, which then ties into greed of Enron as a company which went bust in US also due to greed factor.
It is possible, they get gas at subsidized rates and hence are managing at approx Rs3.00 per unit. But note, the fuel they wanted to use originally was Naptha and they can still not produce electricity with that fuel at reasonable costs. Naptha unit was pretty much shut..
Second part is a bit of hypothesis at this point. I don't think foreign companies will be running the plants. They will needless be importing the reactors since the third generation reactors are much quicker to setup(~4 years) and easier to maintain etc which lead to cheaper electricity. Note, when EU did a comparison some time back, they found Nuclear energy was less than oil/gas based and competitive to coal if thermal plant was not based very near to mines. Anyways, I do agree that implementation of this is something which should be watched closely by everyone.
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Gopal on Aug 06, 2008 04:05 AM Permalink
You are silent about expected shortage of Uranium and price increase. Also the decommissioning cost. We should not put a burden on the next generation for the energy we use!!
As per the 1993 PPA the tariff structure is: Two part tariff- Capacity charge plus energy charge Capacity charge includes: Debt service, return on equity and fixed O&M charge-influenced by inflation Energy charge includes: LNG related cost, shipping cost and Variable O&M cost-influenced by fuel cost and import duty. It allows for 16% profit and projected to run 90% of year. The MSEB stopped power draw because of the high cost per unit. Congress and BJP govt are very much interested to keep the station running. They arranged MANY RESTRUCTURING to sell the energy at Rs2.30 per kwh. A GoM was authorised to handle the issue, SUITABLY. Even the PM directed state govt recently to intervene to handle the issue. GE (also the beneficiary of N-deal) does not cooperate with Ratnagiri Gas and Power Co to run the machines well. The management is not happy with GE at all. They just want to create shortage of power to speed up the N-deal.
EU made comparison. But they do not encourage nuclear power!! Then why should India go for that?
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Sandeep on Aug 07, 2008 12:03 PM Permalink
Ah, so now you move from EU not encouraging it to US estimate of waste disposal. Would you agree nuclear option if current US presidents/or future candidates were still supporting nuclear power?
RE:Do not break the system developed over millioniums.
by Sandeep on Aug 06, 2008 01:07 PM Permalink
There is no expected shortage of Uranium at this point. Also current estimates are for uranium to last 80-100 years atleast without re-processing of fuel. Neither is Uranium projected to increase in price more than other non-renewable resources.
You are again off to hypothesizing when you talk about GE not supporting etc. The reason it can not run at full capacity is they have not been able to source enough gas at good prices.
EU is now encouraging nuclear power. They recently said: "The nuclear industry has made considerable investments since 1997. The EU recognises the importance of maintaining a technological lead in the field of nuclear power and supports the further development of the most advanced framework for nuclear energy, including non-proliferation, waste management and decommissioning. "
Now that EU is supporting it, do you agree Nuclear power is an attractive alternative? Or are you too blinded by propaganda material to see reality and do even basic research on your own?
While going thru the message boards some regular members write regularly that Population is the only problem !I always agreed with that and in fact appreciated that! But after spending some time -months here and reading their many other messages I come to the conclusion that they r only pseudo intellectuals who r hiding behind the mask of their real intentions which is exploitation of the poor’s !Recently Rediff published article which said that Indian Economy is growing faster than China as its Population is growing more than China !None of so called members wrote about population probelm! Most who benefitted during Nehru Socialism were brahamins Sharma -yes Sharma ,Tiwari Pandeys etc! But once they used Congress as they were its vote bank - along with Minorities and SC/ST they enjoyed the fruits of Congress! Now they think they r secure - in their new world and hv turned turncoats and suddenly find virtues in RSSBJP !I do not deny then their freedom to Ideology but they were always the Brahmins first and they very well hided their insidious designs of RSSBJP ideology! Now the poipulation is their problem! Which it is !But with poverty reaching new heights for 90% of population and these who enjoyed Nehru era r cursing congress and poors population! As Rediff said Population growth also increases Economic growth! I do not know about that as these Brahmins too do not hv answer to poors misery but it is their Destiny !But with population increasing to 200 crores and more to 22
RE:NDeal or Popualtion!what is the real probelm!
by mahabodhi on Aug 04, 2008 10:21 PM Permalink
But with population increasing to 200 crores and more to 225 crores then the poors will outclass these who enjoyed the Nehru era and feel secure in their world and find corruption only in Congress and UPA leaders and some even write of Commiies too as most corrupt !they may be right but commies never ruled at centre !And what surprises is that they even qoute the ENRON deal as most corrupt but do not reveal the names of those corrupt leaders !Why!I ask these Sharmas /Tiwari and others who once used the Congress to explain why!If they care! So what r names of these leaders who were paid education money or bribed as per Enron accounts !And who passed the ENRON Counter Guarantee during lunch session when these RSSBJP leaders or neo-rich Brahmins and PM Atal Vajpayee passed the ENRON!What is their name !I ask these Sharmas etc. why they never say anything truthful except some word jugglery about population and issues for which they even say do not have solutions! They enjoyed the Nehru era and now feel secure in their world !But most Indians r poverty stricken and do not even read these messages and r not netizens!I too have no solutions for poverty removal of poors and also for me as I find that these very corrupt powerful people change colours like chameleon and use jugglery of words and confess that they too do not have solutions !So what next Sir!As Rediff says Population growth increases Economic growth so China will lag behind India very soon !Well let population reach 200
RE:RE:NDeal or Popualtion!what is the real probelm!
by mahabodhi on Aug 04, 2008 10:22 PM Permalink
Well let population reach 200 crores it is for sure that poors wil find some good solution for themselves and all will feel secure good econmically as well socially as those who enjoyed Nehruera did! Anyway the issue was NDeal but that is no issue at least here in Rediff even if the article is about NDeal and the real issue is how the poverty can be removed !So some suggest let there be only 10 crore population Wishful thinking !But I hope that real issue is insidious designs of the those who allowed Congress to flourished and now feel that congress is corrupt and only name the leaders like MMS, Sonia Lalu and some even say Mayawati too!So if u hv no solution then it is better that population reach its saturation level ,perhaps population will also solve the poor’s solution as they may hv their Proletarian rule then !
RE:NDeal or Popualtion!what is the real probelm!
by reformer on Aug 04, 2008 11:15 PM Permalink
without doing any job, if somebody gets money by just posing comments on rediff... definately nice idea.
Why does rediff allow her to write so many articles is beyond anyone's comprehension on this board... There is no national consensus. China took 10 yrs to sign the 123 agreement, that too while they had no hyde act to sign... And here is india, which not only is signing 123 agreement without national consensus, but also the hyde act...
RE:Shadup
by Jagadis Bose on Aug 04, 2008 09:53 PM Permalink
Let her write. Let all view-points be expressed. But lets not tolerate vote-buying and corruption at the highest levels.
RE:Shadup
by Sandeep on Aug 05, 2008 06:08 AM Permalink
You are right. Corruption is a big problem which can kill even implementation of a good idea. At highest places, it is even worse since it percolates down.. But I would add, at any level, we should resist corruption where both, easily giving money and asking it are to blame.
The article is attributed to 'one such supporter' of nuclear deal.
This person is frankly delusional. He or she has no clue what he/she is talking about. 70% of India needs state support for everyday living. They need primary care, education, cheap food, transportation to survive. Capitalism sounds very good on paper but has practical limitations.
Those paying attention to capitalist USA, would have noticed how US government is bailing out the banks, airlines, mortgage companies. Had there been real capitalism, these companies should have been allowed to go bankrupt. Same CEO who praise free market on CNBC are the first ones to show up begging money from the government ( which is basically tax payers money) to bail them out. Same guys who made hundreds of millions of dollars every year are now begging to be rescued by tax paers. Talk of shameless ness and hypocrisy.
Half knowledge is a dangerous thing and I am afraid that Indians have only been fed all the rosy scenarios but they don't know the dark side of capitalism. As everything in life, balance is important. Free market socialism is the best solution to India's challeneges.
Germany and Japan should be India's model not USA.
RE:India vs. Bharat
by balamurugan g on Aug 04, 2008 09:30 PM Permalink
You are right.. Germany & Japan received massive aid from USA after they were bombed. So we add the following to the TODO things for India: a. Go at war with USA. b. Let USA drop couple of atom bombs.. This will help control 'population problem' as millions will die & we have leveled the cities which were becoming unwieldy due to lack of planning. Now we can plan and actually build proper cities. c. Then you surrender & get funds for development due to massive sympathy towards the suffering & destruction we inflicted on ourselves. d. Become developed countries like Germany & Japan.
RE:India vs. Bharat
by Kris on Aug 04, 2008 09:43 PM Permalink
Are you as stupid as you sound?
Germany and Japan both had massive industrial base even before 2nd world war and did not require anyone's help to where they are today. Keep believing in oft-repeated misinformation. There is not even an iota of evidence that these countries were helped with US technology, if at all most of the technology was stolen from Germany. It is however, true that US carried out humanitarian missions in Germany after the second world war.
But that is not the issue here. The issue is government role in a society. Both Germany and Japan provide health care, education through government sponsored programmes. Government has an important constructive role to play in India. What you see in India today has been built on socilalist economy. Yes, it is true that India was on the other extreme and has to come to the center which it has done. There is no reason to move towards capitalism then we already have at this stage. Let the gains be consolidated, let people become more educated and self sufficient then we can move to next stage. India is not ready for that as yet.
RE:India vs. Bharat
by balamurugan g on Aug 04, 2008 10:02 PM Permalink
Well.. I was talking about after the WWII. If we want to go for the before WWII scenario here is the plan: a. We need a leader like Hitler.. b. Attack other countries & loot their resources. c. Set up colonies & kill the original inhabitants. d. Extract untold taxes from those inferior people. e. Pray that nobody comes to war with us.
RE:India vs. Bharat
by Kris on Aug 05, 2008 12:17 AM Permalink
I am talking of Germany and Japan of TODAY not the past. By your logic, even US should not be followed after all they had slavery, cleansing of native Americans.
Bharatiyans, use your brain. Congress is making fools of you. Nuclear enrgy is too expensive and is not viable in India. Open power plants with natural gas, encourage solar, wind and other alternative energy.
Use the money on primary and technical education.
What is good for west is not necessarily good for India.
Germany, one of the most advanced nation is SHUTTING down all its nuclear plants by 2020. Nuclear energy has no role in the future unless the radiation and bomb making byproducts are taken care of. An accident in a nuclear plant is a nightmare, especially in India.
RE:One nuclear power plant is worth 42,000 crore rupees
by Girish Rao on Aug 04, 2008 09:10 PM Permalink
here are some more ways of saving and earning money for the government 1) shut down military. Military uses up 3 percent of our GDP ie a massive 30 billion dollars ie 120000 croes. Germany has very little significant military budget. Let us beg US to be included under Nato umbrella to protect ourselves from Chinese and Pakistani missiles.
2) cut down electricity from 6 pm to 6 am.
3) Impose 90% taxes on those earning 3L and above, as after all all lower-middle class and above are criminals and need to be milked for all their worth
RE:One nuclear power plant is worth 42,000 crore rupees
by reformer on Aug 04, 2008 09:15 PM Permalink
Girish, kitna paisa milta hai tumhe? thoda humebhi batao
All said and done there is no sovereign Republic on earth which has handed over administration to private parties. There will be blood shed because security at the air ports and at various other entry and exit points we cannot tell some private parties to do the work. US also doesnot allow this. Is there any party to check what is going through the courier and is not allowed by Indian posts? We can recommend only one thing to the government, that is to come out of running business enterprises. When all countries of the world support their farmers in the form of subsidy what is wrong if India allows it? Why should world leaders talk these matters about subsidies. Tommorrow the government may purchase nuclear power at Rs.6/= per watt and give it freee to people below poverty line. When we object and make fun of the government we should be grateful that 33% of the people who cannot get two square meals a day are keeping quiet but not looting as in Africa and other countries. Hunger can drive a person to do anything who has nothing to fear when he/she is a living dead without any attachments/ possessions in this world. This population is increasing day by day in this great nation where the poor are ready to do anything. We as people who are fortunate enough to use computers and internet should look at the lopsided development of 100 billioners who are almost richer than the world richest but with surrounding people having nothing to eat.
RE:A Soverign Republic cannot be handed over to parivate parties
by Gopal on Aug 04, 2008 09:30 PM Permalink
The visionaries see things from the grass-root level. Now we see things superficially. The leaders should realise that desires have no limit. Never try to fan it. It is destructive after a level. Ambani fight is the example. Here the government receive patronage from Ambanis. Actually it should have been other way round. Ambani's should read Mahabharata and the final war. In one sense it is a tragedy. (Material world) Projecting a rosy picture is the nature of rulers. Any development which does not include the lowest of the low income group is not a development.
Look at the change in postal service. It was very cheap and efficient in olden days. A letter was delivered the next day of posting within a state. Modern management made it a few days and expensive. Very soon the postal service will be for name sake and the courier services get a boost!!
Their will be media hike on privatization in every field. Because the media are owned and managed by the 'big houses'. The poor always look to the government for everything. Let the government be sympathetic to the poor. We need a reorientation of government's outlook. Let us remember our Father of the Nation and his vision. I do not criticise the reporter. Their duty is to show the disparities in the society to . Let them do that.
We discussed enough on n-deal. The government did not listen. The government is hellbent to make India a 'mango republic' and a grave yard of nuclear waste and a target for terrorists.
RE:RE:A Soverign Republic cannot be handed over to parivate parties
by Gopal on Aug 04, 2008 09:31 PM Permalink
Mr.Nayak, good thought. A correction. The energy from this N-deal will cost at least Rs20/- a unit. It will double in every five years. Taking into account the decommissioning cost initial cost will be Rs40/-. Remember the cost projected for ENRON in Bombay and the real cost. Learn from experience.
RE:A Soverign Republic cannot be handed over to parivate parties
by Rajendra Nayak on Aug 04, 2008 10:19 PM Permalink
Even the middle class will not be able to purchase power at Rs.40/- per unit.That means more people will have to be subsidized and the US businessmen will raise their eyebrows as to how to sell power at a cheaper rate to Umpty and Dumpty as per the government wishes.
RE:A Soverign Republic cannot be handed over to parivate parties
by Gopal on Aug 05, 2008 12:19 AM Permalink
Have you heard of an inflation of 2 million % prevailing in a country? I do not want to name it. It is not real. It is artificially created. It can be created in India after one or two decade. Not 2 millions!!
