India can be perfect union only if masses are trained for perfect public behaviour. We have all the law and police. but what have we achived in last 50 years. Our city looks like fish market. road, foot path every where there is chaos. Why ? Because most of the people dont have responsiblity, discipline. they were never trained on civic issues. Our education is so rotten to the core. We spend our child hood ratta maro goegraphy, history and pass the exam. Our mind becomes dull. If u see any developed nation, the first thing they do is teach their citizen to take responsiblity, work hard for making of better soeicty. Their school, college, church, movies every where they are training citizen to respect the ''right and need'' of others. What do we teach in our movies. just f9yjh fantasy. What happens in our temple, just go pray to god to get things done without doing anything. No wonder we are so backward. There is no place in our temple where satsang can happen. People can sit together and share there comitment to truth, service etc. take resolve that we will spend all our attention, time, energy on doing good constructing thing for progress of our society, nation. India, we need revolution along this line. That could make perfect india. Otherwise keep blaming govt. politics. Its easy to spend time blaming others than looking within us what can i do, isn't it.
RE:We need revolution like west for a perfect India.
by raj rajan on Apr 13, 2008 09:54 AM Permalink
these words how truely represent the present state of India's society... yes, its high time we start learning our responsibilities as a citizen to our society, to our environment and to the laws of the land !
The world would be devoid of religios hatred and far better place to live if all countries declare themselves as secular and liberal countries irrespective of majority of any particular religion. India has shown the way, Nepal has followed. Now the powerful countries must pressurize Islamic countries to follow that path and that should begin with Pakistan and Bangladesh. Sounds like a crazy idea ? Think about it. That is not impossible if women of the society are educated and liberated and given more power.
RE:Be secular
by Peter Parker on Apr 15, 2008 06:10 PM Permalink
This is a total fallacy that by giving women equality all the worlds problems would be solved. Take a look at the west itself, women have so called equality and yet none of the societal problems have been solved. Rather there are new problems. My point being that any one having power over anyone else is prone to misbehavior. There is a reason for the balance since time immemorial, it works as both sides are balanced out. Take out that structure and soon it will be like the japanese society. Where enlightened women keep "geisha" men and men are becoming soft and weak like women of the past. The only one's who to redress this balance are the feminists. These people have taken over the media and are trying to do social engineering by destroying the traditional indian culture. Well to hell with them and their liberal icons.
RE:Be secular
by Kris iyer on Apr 13, 2008 11:21 AM Permalink
Broadly, your views are right. But many countries in the Islamic world, may not be receptive to them - that is most of India's neighbours. Many Islamists see "secularism" itself as "unislamic". In the last ten years or so, many muslim women in India have disappered behind burquas and veils. In the south, Tamil Muslims, who had never veiled their women, ever, and had the same freedom to dress as Hindu women, are now predominantly veiled, that too in black clothes. In the hot weather of Madras, it must be a form of torture. Even ordinary muslims (not fundamentalists)cannot be persuaded to let their women folk be like the majority of women in India. How morality is preserved by covering women's (of all ages) faces and arms,I am, as yet, not convinced. In an advanced country like Britain in the name of Islam or "family honour", women have been killed by muslim families who are second generation British. Some of them are more conservative than their brethren in Mirpur and West Punjab. This unwillingness of Islam to share universal values of secularism and democratic liberalism is a huge problem, even in India, where the largest population of muslims in the world lives. As for Hindu women in rural areas, a great deal of work has to be done to ensure they get the same nutrition and education as male children. Narendra Modi of Gujarat goes to villages every fresh school year,ensures the enrollment of female children in schools. He ensures the schools have proper teachers.
I get such a breathe of fresh air in this article. It is balanced & takes a dispassionate view.
Most of the postings degenerate into attacking the persons than looking at the issues. Everybody has pet peeves and take it out on others, mostly unrelated to the issue in hand.
Due to the family influences, some make great sacrifices for education & ingraine it into the psyche of their off-springs. Others are more into business or never have self-discipline to come up in life. These are in all castes but maybe more pronounced in some. Some abhor money for money's sake & want to earn just enough by fair means. Others will earn by any means and greed is the motivating factor. Though one cannot classify into castes, family backgrounds do play a part.
The govt should take affirmative actions to benefit the poor. But to perpetuate the caste system in the process will attack at the very guts of national psyche.
Malaysia granted citizenship to Chinese & Indians on an understanding Malays will get privileges. Over the last fifty years, the majority of them did not benefit, but got into a crutch mentality. In the recent elections, many voted against the ruling Barisan Nasional. The younger generation felt such a policy benefited only a privileged few and made them out to be inferior & less capable.
We know how some have exploited their backward class status to acquire enormous wealth while shedding crocodile tears for their community's plight!
Who cares about Iqbal. I dont. The author is dreaming. He lives in Chicago and is most probably a liberal socialist that has escaped to the US. He paints India with some wierd rosy eyes, expecting everyone to give up their individual identity. He and these other liberals are dreaming. At the end of the day man is defined by his community and culture. Women want to change the status quo as it disfavors their status. But guess what when they are granted more power they behave no different than men. As far his marrying a brahmin woman from Maharashtra, it is well known that maharashtrian brahmin women have loose moral character. They will marry anyone that has money and/or looks.
RE:Damn Iqbal...
by Kris iyer on Apr 13, 2008 09:42 AM Permalink
Dear Peter Parker, Is this your usual style of debate? Personal attack is your chief argument? Sad. One or two of your ideas can be expressed in a more reasoned and reasonable manner. If done properly, many may come to your viewpoint. But you are not giving any thought to it, it seems. I am sad that generally, Indians seem to start on a useful debate, but very soon, end up making personal comments, which in turn degenerates into a shouting match. So, everyone leaves, none the wiser but more entrenched in their dislikes. I would suggest you watch some debates on the BBC World, or on CNN. You may learn something. Don't be shy to learn at any age, from anyone - another failing of our people. They are scared of learning something from others, especially, if they are Indians. Please consider Mr.Ram Kelkar's views, no matter where he lives or whom he has married. He gave that information to highlight the sort of changes India has witnessed and to show that with good will and common sense can get on well as Indians. I hope you will not be sued for defamation by a group of Maharashtrian brahmin women. Incidentally, I have met a few. They are no different from Indian women of whatever group. You are defaming thousands and thousands of very decent Maharashtrian brahmin families also through your remarks about their women. Finally, some of us care about Iqbal. We do not like his support for partition. But as a poet we like him. Speak for yourself. Do not speak for us.
RE:Damn Iqbal...
by JaiHanumaan on Apr 13, 2008 12:50 PM Permalink
With All due respect, west is a very stifled society, under the iron hand of law and corporate power(tyrannies). Democracy is a sham in America. People in US debates take very calculated positions with fear of jeopardizing their economic control over people.Its a very artificial controlled society.
It is not taught even in american universities that america is a democracy.It is america who can learn from indian socialist(still) democracy to loosen up a bit and have some real democracy.
Indians have become more materialistic since 1991 when rajiv gandhi was killed and narasimha rao government took the credit for starting economic reforms.
Movements in indian thought are coming from southern india, because they have embraced the western/american style capitalism and there is literally no challenge to them, they are running away with the cake.
I pray to the almighty that a current to counter this current be born in northern hindu india setup, to quiten the forces unleashed from southern eliet establishments and their american freinds.
North is loosing out with this deluge of capital from foreign lands from secular elites forming alliances with west. They just have name of GOD and their ancient faith to stick tightly to, on this modern day assault by secular, rich, psudos , english educated, of this modern day economic whirlwind which is engulfing the simple people of faith of india.
RE:Damn Iqbal...
by ashwin dandwate on Apr 12, 2008 10:49 PM Permalink
One question Peter.who told you that story about Maharashtrain Women?
I dont know which part of the country you come from? whatever it is, a child raised by a Maharashtrian brahmin women wont have that kinda mentality towards any other women from from any community.
So, clearly you have not been raised by a Marathi women and your mother (with all due respect) has failed in the job of raising you up. Though I think she is a wonderful person.
My two cents to you would be to stop using such derogatory statements about any women from any community(especially Indian....this being an Indian forum), be it any inferiority complex/problems you incur.
RE:Damn Iqbal...
by Peter Parker on Apr 15, 2008 05:48 AM Permalink
Dandawate Do not give me that crap. Maharashtrian brahmin women are no saints. I have seen more than enough with my own eyes, to realize that maharashtrian brahmin women are more promiscous than their male counterparts. That is my opinion and if you don't agree then thats your opinion. As far as this perfect union bullocks its just another liberal ploy to make india from hindustan to "hindistan". That aint happening bro.
RE:Damn Iqbal...
by Aditya on Apr 12, 2008 08:27 PM Permalink
If you think a man is defined by community and culture then what is your individual identity? The minute you call yourself a part of a group you compromise your individuality and self respect because you are allowing them to represent you. The very basic thing a person can do is represent himself.
RE:Damn Iqbal...
by True Blue on Apr 13, 2008 07:40 AM Permalink
Your cheap lowlife comment about women from a certain region and community in India shows your own lack of moral character. And when did you become an expert to give out certificates of character to women.
constitution guarantees equality and concessions for the lower castes and rightly so, as they suffered discrimintaion for 1000's of years. but consititution does not provide any reprieve for hindus, sikhs , jains , buddhists who were persecuted by muslims for the last 1000 years. By making india secular , we allowed a minority with a tyrannical past get equal footing with the majority. Its a fact that india was divided on religious grounds. muslim majority provinces walked out of india as they wanted to live in a islamic country, they did not want to live in a secular india. then what remained behind should have automatically become a hindu nation. but that didn't happen. tyrants were rewarded with a separate country and also given equal rights in this country. hindu rights were thus trampled. being the majority community in india , hindus deserved to make this a hindu country. ( with just 55% of the population , muslims made sudan a islamic country, in muslim malaysia, muslims are only 60% of the population). Only declaring india a hindu nation will complete the unfinished task of providing compensation and relief to historically oppressed people in india. WHAT DOES RAM KELKAR WANT TO SAY ABOUT THIS ?
RE:what about justice to hindus ?
by Aditya on Apr 12, 2008 08:33 PM Permalink
There are only two countries which are created on the basis of religion. Pakistan and Israel and both havent seen peace at all internally and externally since its birth. Please dont bring religion into the identity of a country. A nation is an idea and its far bigger than any religion or community. If you are a true Hindu then please go back into history the glorious and not so glorious. You will know at the most powerful empires also seperated matters of state from religion. That is the reason Kshatriyas were rulers and not Brahmins. That is why a Chandragupta Maurya was the emperor and Chanakya a brahmin priest was only a advisor. Apart from that Chanakya himself has noted that State and Religion should not mix. So dont insult hindu ethos and culture by calling to declare India a Hindu Nation.... finally a nation doesnt belong to anyone. You belong to the nation. If you dont recognise you are free to leave the country along with your bigotry.
RE:what about justice to hindus ?
by WERY AMUSITA on Apr 12, 2008 07:43 PM Permalink
Yes.. very right...very sensible arguement.But who is there to listen? the Man in suit even had the nerve to state that Muslims have the first claim to India's resources.is he in his right state of mind;to even think like that in a democratic nation? So what about the rest of us? Who is there to protect our religious beliefs,our way of life,our land???BJP failed us miserably.... Can RSS bring up new Hindu leadership other than the Jinnah worshippers and coffin dealers?
RE:RE:RE:what about justice to hindus ?
by Aditya on Apr 12, 2008 08:34 PM Permalink
There are only two countries which are created on the basis of religion. Pakistan and Israel and both havent seen peace at all internally and externally since its birth. Please dont bring religion into the identity of a country. A nation is an idea and its far bigger than any religion or community. If you are a true Hindu then please go back into history the glorious and not so glorious. You will know at the most powerful empires also seperated matters of state from religion. That is the reason Kshatriyas were rulers and not Brahmins. That is why a Chandragupta Maurya was the emperor and Chanakya a brahmin priest was only a advisor. Apart from that Chanakya himself has noted that State and Religion should not mix. So dont insult hindu ethos and culture by calling to declare India a Hindu Nation.... finally a nation doesnt belong to anyone. You belong to the nation. If you dont recognise you are free to leave the country along with your bigotry.
/** people who had suffered from discrimination, tyranny and persecution for thousands of years finally made real their declaration of Independence, after a Constituent Assembly met for a period of over two years and drafted a Constitution that was adopted on January 26, 1950 **/
I challenge the author of this article.. Can you ever prove the above quotes of yours?
This is utter lie, that is spread by the britishers for collapsing our indian society..
The truth is that the suppression and oppression are western characters that our indian society acquired after british dominion..
Terming it as occuring for thousands of years is utter non-sense..
Ram Kelkar's write up is matured analysis . I feel that it is the politicians who whip up caste passions for their Non performance . If millions of low caste people in India suffer it is mainly bcoz these politicians do not do anything for them .It is true that OBC and SC/ST were discriminated in India .But times have changed ,it is 60 yrs after independence . Politicians for grabbing votes try to blame someone for some others misery . Actually they are the cause of misery for the whole India . Can we after 60 years of Independence blame the British for our Non-Progress ? We cannot ...We Indians have to understand who is the real culprit .The politicians Ofcourse !!
This essay by Sri Ram Kelkar is clearly by an experienced and mature thinker. He is not taking sides. He is not twisting any of the unfortunate and silly history some member of our soceity had faced. But he is looking FORWARD. He has kept faith with the Vedic Saying, "Vasudaiva Kutumbakam". His grandson, Prakash is very right - "Let us decide that word "caste" be banned from use in India". A wise grandson of a wise grandfather. Let us think seriously about young Prakash's suggestion. Is it really that difficult for any of us to resolve: "I WILL NOT WONDER ABOUT THE CASTE OF ANYONE.. I WILL LOOK AT HIM OR HER PURELY ON HIS OR HER QUALITY OR MERIT AS A HUMAN BEING.. I WILL NOT DO ANY FAVOUR OR DISFAVOUR TO THAT PERSON BECAUSE OF CASTE CONSIDERATIONS." In our fast urbanising India, getting slightly wealthier also, why not build more and more IITs and IIMs, instead of "playing poltical games" with this caste-thing. It is dangerous to re-create the India of 1920s by constantly discussing caste. Frankly, this constant reference to it is a form of madness. For our politicians, this is a vote-winner. But what benefit do the rest of us really get out of it?
RE:dravidians(excluding south brahmins) and north indian OBC/SC/ST are native indians
by Manjula A on Apr 12, 2008 11:26 AM Permalink
I am very very happy that atleast someone realises this truth. But I have something to say here. Even in the northern parts, most of the SCs and STs are native Indians that is why they are dark in colour, find it almost impossible to learn the foreign languages, Sanskrit and English. Further, there is no term called Dravidian. The correct term, as you have rightly mentioned is "Native Indian". Indians need no separate term to call themselves. It is the Aryans who are foreigners and require a separate term. For Indians, suffice it call INDIAN or at the most, Native Indians or original Indians.
RE:RE:dravidians(excluding south brahmins) and north indian OBC/SC/ST are native indians
by Kris iyer on Apr 13, 2008 09:01 AM Permalink
Dear Manjula A. On, Your favourite idea that turns you On is this "Native Indians" versus Aryans - you imply the two groups are in conflict. Your idea has no scientific or historic basis, as I hope to explain below. Even if your idea is the truth, how do you hope to "mark out" ALL the Aryans (beyond your feverish hatred of some castes) and then get all the "Aryans" out of India, then esure social justice to the "Native Indians" ? Some readers may well wonder about your sanity. Historically, the earliest Indians, it is said, would have been the Munda people, some Adivasi groups and the Andaman and Nicobar island people. Others, came in in the form of different tribes, who may have constituted themselves into Jathis, well before the "Aryans" came to India. Some writers can see that the "Varnasrama" system was a later "add on" to the jathi system. The "Aryans" and other peoples were inter-marrying even during the Vedic Period. Both Sri Krishna and Sri Rama were dark-skinned, as were some great sages of the "Aryans" like Vyasa Dev, who organised the Vedas and Vedangas and Agasthya, who spread the Vedas throughout SouthIndia. You are entitled to your "likes and dislikes" but have some sound reasons to support them. It is not right to go on some vague hatred. Many obsessed people are very close to madness. Ask any psychiatrist. Some of our politicians are too clever in their madness to be psychoanalysed. That is a huge problem for India. Psychiatrists cannot cure the "money-m
RE:dravidians(excluding south brahmins) and north indian OBC/SC/ST are native indians
by m w on Apr 12, 2008 11:58 AM Permalink
you seem to have burrowed deep into history british taught us. For ur kind info, the term aryan was for the civilised normal people of india. All our history mentions Gauds(north of Vindhya and Dravids(South of Vindhya). there was no aryan dravidian conflict except in the imagination of european historians. hahaha to the concept of native indians for a culture that embraces all who value it. I can understand your angst fed by vested interests...
For your kind info any society on earth has chaturvarna, the kind intelligent professor will always consider himself and his kind to be intellectually superior to others...even if you banish all brahmins by birth from india, brahminism will still arise from the rest.
Your efforts and angst should be against birth based chaturvarna rather than hatred against people
RE:dravidians(excluding south brahmins) and north indian OBC/SC/ST are native indians
by SINGH on Apr 12, 2008 11:52 AM Permalink
I can only laugh at your knowledge on history....so...think whatever you are comfortable and happy with....better ignore idiots like you.... the article is talking about national unity anhd you ares still trying to divide with your less than half knowledge on history... Jai Hind...
