The duo is bullshit. Rice another bullshit. This crap, rediff has submitted, yet another bullshit. Why don't people live and let others live? The world would be such a wonderful place if there were no filthy politics and gimmerics that are the centre stage at the advent of the elections.
RE:Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!
by Pankaj Daga on Sep 07, 2007 04:18 AM Permalink
Amen brother!
This US is just a bully telling others what and what not to do. India better stand on its own feet and be self-reliant and independent rather than being pushed around by western imperial nations!
RE:Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!
by Loan Shark on Sep 07, 2007 05:14 AM Permalink
If self reliance was that easy, we wouldn't be needing US technology.
The pro-US guys here are adopting wrong line of argument. Let us have a healthy discussion with a FREE, unbiased mind-niether pro-US NOR anti-US.
Most of the arguments have been resting on cases why we need to have good relations with a strategically important partner like the US. No questions there. We need good relations there. I am myself a resident of the US..
Similar are arguments why we should NOT support Iran. No questions there too.
But the objection is why WE would build/sever our relationship because SOMEONE ELSE ASKS US TO DO SO..That is the fundamental sovereignty question here.
For example: Let us say, you do not like your wife and CANNOT stand her..Even if that be the case, no one has the right to interfere and instruct you to divorce her.. That should be YOUR decision.
Similarly, whether India should have relations with Iran or India will/will not explode the Nuclear bomb is orthogonal to whether someone can instruct us to do so..In other words, sovereignty is independent of what we do with it.
RE:Wrong line of argument
by sudip on Sep 07, 2007 04:16 AM Permalink
Good Point but this Not Aligning with anyone doesn't serve anyone. That has fundamentally been a flaw in India's foreign policy. The simple fact is we need to increase our trade and create a pro-foreign investor environment. I don't think India is going to get anything from Iran and I don't care if its the US or anyone but I know that the US, UK, Germany, France, Japan, Australia etc are all aligned and even though they have differences between them (i.e. Iraq), India's choice is to align its foreign policy with this group rather than the Iranians, Cubans etc...
As for your analogy-if people see you are making a mistake by sticking/or not sticking with your wife then they should object/advise...only if they care before you end up on the front lawn with your pajamas...
RE:Wrong line of argument
by Chirag Majmundar on Sep 07, 2007 04:09 AM Permalink
I think Indian government should respond back to US senetors that the ties beteen Iran n India is age old, perhaps much before the ties with US. India is not supporting Iran in terms of arms and technology then America is helping Pakistan to foster the terrorism in South East asia. Seeing the political instability and fragile situation in internal parts of Pakistan, US should not support Pakistan at all. The same Economic Help to Pakistan from US is used in spreading terrorrism in India. But I am sure, India won't reply back. bloody old Indian leadership.
RE:RE:Wrong line of argument
by Jagan P James on Sep 07, 2007 09:38 AM Permalink
Does India need to reply to any tom dick & harry, the senators are as good as our commies her, just for cheap publicity, and they have put the matter to rice, why india should be bothering abt these nonsence.. the same, why america is not responding to the commies what they are doing here. its better for there own govt to deal with such things..
RE:Wrong line of argument
by Onlooker on Sep 07, 2007 05:05 AM Permalink
You have started good but then your analogy is not very good here. India-Iran is not an internal affair. US do not like to see what looks to be a win-win situation today to be turned into a lose-win situation for them tomorrow. They are taking every steps to safeguard their interests. Nuke in the hands of one mad fellow is a dangerous situation. You have to be a developed nation and a democratic nation to handle nukes. We are developing, so to some extent its ok for the US. But Iran is not so. Its basically a common sense. You dont want to support someone who support your enemy. Do you? Other than that, we need not compromise our sovereignity or our security. Those are legitimate concerns and we should clearly put it before the US.
RE:Wrong line of argument
by Lalatendu Deo on Sep 07, 2007 10:56 AM Permalink
Onlooker, Us Government itself do understand the needs of Indo-Iran Pipeline. Though they expressconcern, they do not vehimently oppose it.
But I do not understand as to why we are becoming more loyal than the King himself.
RE:RE:Wrong line of argument
by knowme Iamhuman on Sep 07, 2007 05:08 AM Permalink
u r bit mean.. u dont like wife..why then u married her even and leaving her shudn't be ur decision..only...It shud be joint decision just to make a clarification of ur point ..nothng to do wd india us thing
RE:Wrong line of argument
by prasad p on Sep 07, 2007 04:03 AM Permalink
you are right in a way.But what if your neighbour feel that you will take away his wife..and his friend is close to you.Then obviously he will seek help from his friend to move you out..
Rediff should stop fooling indians, and tell the people how congress works in DC... Every Hour some senator writes something to some department... It might be a big news, when some lok sabha members are paid to ask questions in Indian Parliament, but it is a Business as usual in Congress in USA... India itself hires lobbyists to bring question in the house and senate in DC... Please it is inconsequential what the senators say... There are 100 senators, and few of them are hired by Pakistan.. Of course, Iran is a issue for Israel. Israel has the largest and influencential lobbyist team in the DC...
Iran is a good country. The people are very good. It is always good for India to have a warm and close relation with Iran. At the same time, as long as there is a lot religious fanatics there, holding key positions and in commanding power, it is good to have certain "Care" with them.
RE:Iran is a good country
by jet on Sep 07, 2007 02:09 AM Permalink
Iran never supported india on kashmir issue. It always supported the Pakistan resolutions on Kashmir in OIC against India. Then why should we have close ties with that country and annoy US.
RE:Iran is a good country
by kshitij tumbde on Sep 07, 2007 03:46 AM Permalink
Yeah USA never supported India on Kashmir as well. There goes your argument.
RE:Iran is a good country
by sudip on Sep 07, 2007 04:20 AM Permalink
Why do we need anyones support. We should have handled Kashmir on our own long time ago...not wait for support...
Buddy-choosing between a Islamic Fundamentalist and American Capitalism is easy if you have any sense of logic or reason. The latter prevails and is the reason India is today booming except where Communists rule...
A lotts people here dont understand that the N Deal is actually not just abt India and the US, its actually abt India and the Rest of the world comin together, the deal is nt US specific bt opens the doors to 45 nations who supply nuclear technology. Obviously we are nt sellin ourselves to nations like Russia China France UK South Sfrica Brazil Sweden etc. The idea that the deal is just between the US and India is absolutely wrong. The US is facilitating the removal of nuclear sanctions against India. Frm where we buy uranium is upto us. About the Hyde Act, its a US domestic act whch binds only the US congress. India and the rest of the worlds got nuthn to do with that. Under Hyde Act the US can withdraw under certain circumstances whch the US feels is againt US interest. But as it is only a domestic act it does not apply to neother country. Its actually better that the US withdraws as that would allow us to buy more stuff frm Russia whch would be cheaper. The Hyde Act is God send and its implementation is a masterstroke frm our Foreign Ministry negotiators. Rememeber once India signs this deal its legally impossible to stop India frm buyinh uranium frm Russsia or ne other country even if the US is against it.
RE:N Deal The Real Facts
by Amjad Baig on Sep 07, 2007 03:14 AM Permalink
Don't forget that India can purchase nuclear fuel only from NSG that is highly influenced by US. Withdrawl of support is when IAEA terms and conditions are violated. These terms are as per Vienna convention I believe. There are many riders and if required, US can easily influence IAEA to its favour.
This actually is a dangerous trend. I think we should look at this carrot (n.deal) in the light of hidden stick (foreign policy influence).
Who cares how Iran is ruled? After the fall of Iraq, the prevailing mess in Afghan and a near collapse Pakistan, Iran is the only remaining island. India's better ties, will also indirectly help US in case things go out of hand, as they are already on a lost war. If it helps develop better relations, favorable regimes and friendly fuel, whats the harm? US senators may be concerned, but its their govt.'s duty to explain them. India shud stick to 123 as well as the pipeline.
RE:better ties
by Transformers on Sep 07, 2007 01:17 AM Permalink
Opposing Iran for the sake of US is nt acceptable, but opposing Irans Nuclear Weapons Program is absolutely necessary. We dont want another islamic nuclear bomb in our backyard... A nuclear pakistan is enough a headache we have, a Nuclear iran is disastrous.
RE:better ties
by kshitij tumbde on Sep 07, 2007 03:52 AM Permalink
Be a businessman , have good relations with both. You never know who can help when.
What lost war? The longer the US pretends the Iraq problem is worsening, the longer the US can maintain such a huge presence in the middle-east.
Don't be fooled by 4000 American troops dying in 5-6 years. That's nothing compared to American losses in Vietnam, that ran into the 50,000s and yet, they stayed on for decades.
RE:better ties
by Amjad Baig on Sep 07, 2007 03:29 AM Permalink
Writing is on the wall. Its just a matter of time ...
UK, US's biggest (should I say only), is almost out of Iraq. That puts huge pressure on already short marine force. Bush already had trouble convincing US congress for additional troops. Infact in recent surprise visit, Bush indicated troop pull-out from Iraq.
US during Vietnam era is not the same US now. Trade deficit is 6 times GDP. There is a BIG bubble in the form of Subprime crisis. God only knows how big it is and when its going to burst. UBS recently predicted that 10% correction in housing prices can see US entering recession period.
Keeping these things in mind, any sensible president would slowly try to cut unnecessary costs. If the words of "intellectually bankrupt" Donald Rumsfeld are to be believed, US doesn't believe in "nation building". But would be more than willing to do otherwise.
So, all in all, I think its just a matter of time before US declares that "fragile, nascent" Iraqi army/police is strong enough to take care of their own country and leave behind their mess.
RE:better ties
by Transformers on Sep 07, 2007 01:26 AM Permalink
Its better to be allied with a free democratic America thn to e allied with a totalitarian Iran
India should not support any nation for their Nuclear Arsenal dream including Iran. I don't think India has done it before. I hope India will not do in future too. However US can't dictate terms to India regarding diplomatic relationship with any country. When US can have with Pakistan despite their role in transfer of nuclear technology to Libya and North Korea, what legitamcy do US has to say about India.
Incidentally, Iran came to our rescue when Pakistan wanted to table Kashmir in UN during PV narasimha Rao's period. It forced Pakistan not to table the motion. US has not said a single word in support of India regarding Kashmir being an integral part of India.
Ask US to come out of their Hypocricy before dictating terms to India though India has prerogative to consider or not.
well if you can manage to get along without your american & western invented computer, internet, automobile, electronics, televsion, movies, aeroplanes, satellites, etc.....then you can be indpendent of external requirements and dictates.
RE:US can't dictate terms
by Satish Kumar on Sep 07, 2007 01:11 AM Permalink
Mr. Bunney - You talk as if western invented computer, internet, automobile, electronics, televsion, movies, aeroplanes, satellites, etc. are given FREE. If others don't use/buy this stuff you will be out of your job - Mind It !!
the american & european market is very huge, over 40 trillion $/year, so the south asian market is not really necessary to sustain the western economies.
RE:US can't dictate terms
by Satish Kumar on Sep 07, 2007 01:25 AM Permalink
Then why do you think lots of western companies are outsourcing jobs to South Asia - Charity I guess?
RE:US can't dictate terms
by Transformers on Sep 07, 2007 01:39 AM Permalink
They outsource to India coz its cheaper here whch saves them lotta money. Bt we have the option of refusing all that work as outsourcing is nt forced upon us. Its nt a question of wether our foreign polici is being dictated by the US, in world politics every country has to align, adjust to gain maximum benefit frm the prevailing world condtions. Today Iran does nt serve our interests as much as the US does. Nobody is forcin us to svere ties with Iran. Its the cost we are being askd to pay for some benefits that we can get. Its upto us to decide what is good for us, supportin Iran and gettin isolated economically and politically or supportin US and gainin access to markets and cutting edge technology. The decision is ours, nobody has put a gun on our head. we are free to decide.
RE:For all those who fanatically supported Indo-US nuclear deal
by kshitij tumbde on Sep 07, 2007 03:57 AM Permalink
So 20 yrs into this deal we can be certain we wont have a nuke?
RE:For all those who fanatically supported Indo-US nuclear deal
by P Zipk on Sep 07, 2007 01:02 AM Permalink
Ture, Iran does not give for free. US does not either. But we should have the freedom to choose our own foreign policy. We cannot afford to be the lap dog of any power. Look at Pakistan where they are today after being subservient to a superpower which used them like door mat.
As far as investment, outsourcing, technology, how do you think China is managing all of this in spite of having close relationship with Iran.
RE:RE:For all those who fanatically supported Indo-US nuclear deal
by P Zipk on Sep 07, 2007 01:18 AM Permalink
USA has not given anybody anything for free. There is a lways string attached. I don't blame them. They do what is in the best interest of their country. But it does not meanit is good for India.
China manages to attract investment from the West in spite of Iran issue as we speak. The US is crying bloody murder about the China-Iran relation, but can't do a thing about it.
RE:For all those who fanatically supported Indo-US nuclear deal
by Buggs Bunney on Sep 07, 2007 01:21 AM Permalink
not really, the world bank statistcs say that the USA is the largest aid donor - 26 billion/year free given away.
china is subtle, it has never objected to US policy, have they ever vetoed a US resolution in the UN security council ?
