Awesome Idea Ravi Prakash. Let's create a seperate instituation for dalits, oh wait, how about seperate offices for them to work? let's also throw in seperate district or even better a state and name them Dalististan and seprate them? This is RACISM at it BEST!!!
How can you even think about it for a minute? All these affirmative action are to make everyone feel equal not to alienate the societies further. Agreed that corrupt politicians are using it for political milegae but that doesn't make the reservation or affirmative action bad! Punish the corrupt politicians who are taking advantage but not the good policiies.
Everyone claiming that they don't need reservation, have they lived under oppression in a village for a day? Have they faced the humilitation and suppression these castes faced?
Please don't base your opinion by just seeing your next door OBC neighbor living in luxury to all Dalits/OBCs living in remote villages. Reservation is only for those who live in remote parts without proper eduction and support by the government - This is course correction. Creamy layers should be left out but these communities should benefit.
Also, reservation should be based in ECONOMY only but that can happen after few decades only; untill then, we have to follow current parts as things can't happen overnight in a country of one billion.
One FINAL question: Whoever opposed reservation, are they equally strongly against any caste based alientation? Are you sure you will sit next to a Dalit or tribal in a hotel or theatre? Will your parents allow a Dalit into your kitchen just how your rich neighbor is allowed? ASK your HEART!
Eliminate castes feeling and Reservation will automatically change! Eliminating RESERVATION will NOT eliminate Caste feelings in India. This is reality! First clean up your heart and your surrondings on caste feeling before fighting reservation!
Thats not true buddy. I know of so MANY villages still where you have seperate drinking water glasses for Dalits and OC. Peopel don't sit opposite in a table where a Dalit is sitting.
People's mindset have to change and Human should look another human equally.
When is that our beloved mother India have equal societies where people don't discriminate others on caste or economy?
RE:Racism???
by r patil on May 09, 2007 12:40 AM Permalink
Then why is govt not distinguishing those villages and punishing those practising "untouchability" ,why others who have nothing to do with any one's cast being punished .IS this justice?
I have been looking at all ur blogs and the only thing that comes to mind is every single person blogging here is well educated and sophisticated and knows what he/she is talking... but if we read all this what did all the bloggers here gain.. just added some more fuel to the already raging fire that was set by politicians with a motive of dividing the country on caste when we need a solution to get out of the archaic caste system. Have we sunk so low that anything our politicians say impacts us so bad that we stop thinking rationally and listen to them... People supporting the bill have we ever thought of a round about for our upbringing instead of waiting on these vote mongers to still push us down saying we cant survive without reservation.. Did anyone think that by being pro-reservation people are still supporting caste and indirectly telling us that you are backward and the only thing you can be is backward and live like backward... everytime we throw a twig go fetch it.. looks like politicians achieved what they wanted and we Indians gave it to them wittingly r unwittingly... We lost to them.. This is not just time for facts but also time to rationally view an issue being misused by everyone...common people think and lets behave after rationalising not cos of emotions...
Reservation as an issue has become an emotional one.The proponents have only one reason,an emotional one, that the Dalits have been discriminated for thousands of years.This has become axiomatic in all discussions. What is surprising is why don't they press for institutions for Dalits only. It is strange that pro reservationists want reservations in the existing institutions without asking for special educational facilities dedicated completely for their uplift. As an example, if the average age for a general category student for leaving school is 16 years, the corresponding age for say a completely reserved school could be 18 years. Likewise a different pattern of education could be implemented that will encourage better quality standards to be easily implemented. The Govt could also support such schools differently. The present acrimonious posturing on both sides would yield to a more saner level of debate. But who wants it. It is far easier for our political bosses to pass laws that end up distributing gloom and backwardness in the entiire population.
RE:No sanity in reservation debates
by Prem Kumar on May 08, 2007 10:16 PM Permalink
Awesome Idea Ravi Prakash. Let's create a seperate instituation for dalits, oh wait, how about seperate offices for them to work? let's also throw in seperate district or even better a state and name them Dalististan and seprate them? This is RACISM at it BEST!!!
How can you even think about it for a minute? All these affirmative action are to make everyone feel equal not to alienate the societies further. Agreed that corrupt politicians are using it for political milegae but that doesn't make the reservation or affirmative action bad! Punish the corrupt politicians who are taking advantage but not the good policiies.
Everyone claiming that they don't need reservation, have they lived under oppression in a village for a day? Have they faced the humilitation and suppression these castes faced?
Please don't base your opinion by just seeing your next door OBC neighbor living in luxury to all Dalits/OBCs living in remote villages. Reservation is only for those who live in remote parts without proper eduction and support by the government - This is course correction. Creamy layers should be left out but these communities should benefit.
Also, reservation should be based in ECONOMY only but that can happen after few decades only; untill then, we have to follow current parts as things can't happen overnight in a country of one billion.
One FINAL question: Whoever opposed reservation, are they equally strongly against any caste based alientation? Are you sure you will sit next to a Dalit or tribal in a hotel or theatre? Will your parents allow a Dalit into your kitchen just how your rich neighbor is allowed? ASK your HEART!
Eliminate castes feeling and Reservation will automatically change! Eliminating RESERVATION will NOT eliminate Caste feelings in India. This is reality! First clean up your heart and your surrondings on caste feeling before fighting reservation!
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Amit Shesh on May 08, 2007 11:36 PM Permalink
Which OVERNIGHT are you talking about? 50 years is overnight? Why does the government never have the courage to verify through census about who is benefiting from reservations? I have seen my fellow classmates while away their time and scoring 50% and getting into good colleges because they were reserved. So don't cry me a river about how reservation is really going to those who deserve it. And such cases are NOT in minority (ask yourself if you would refuse a seat out of morality)
Well, of course, 50 years is less when compared to 1000 years of caste-based society. India is progressing a bit only now and they under-previlaged are only coming to compete just now. It will take few more decades to create fair-playing ground.
Again, you simply base your whole argument from what less you saw. Some classmate of yours from creamy layer got seat and you claim the entire reservation is wrong - So many other derserving poor villager also gets in but you just don't see it. Eliminate creamy layer and you will see the real benefits of reservation.
I am totally up for new census which I hope will get more consensus among different sections. I will agree is the census suggests otherwise, will you?
RE:No sanity in reservation debates
by Amit Shesh on May 08, 2007 11:33 PM Permalink
Very nice Mr. Prem Kumar, except the current form of reservation is nothing like what you are saying. A person asking for reserved quota seat is NEVER asked where he/she is from (which remote village) or how much do they earn. That PROVES that the next door rich OBC ends up profiting from these reservations, not the truly oppressed in the remote villages.
Yes, my heart says I will treat everybody as my equal. However if I am deprived again and again of what I deserve simply because of my caste and on the basis of someone else's caste, is that policy really eradicating caste divisions or enhancing it? Sure, I feel for all those oppressed and support reservations based on economy. But all of us SEE who really gets profited by reservation. And the author has a point, you simply cannot make policies based on data that is 70 years old, carried out under British rule!
I'm all for eliminating castes feeling. Are you? It seems you only have hatred for those who oppose reservation and don't really want to understand why they oppose it. Eliminating reservation will not eliminate caste feelings, but maintaining useless politically motivated reservations will not eliminate it either!!
RE:No sanity in reservation debates
by Prem Kumar on May 08, 2007 11:42 PM Permalink
Dear Amit,
Point is Simple. You say current system is not working and creamy layer gets it - Agreed! As I mentioned before, I am all for eliminating creamy layer and bringing economically backward OC as well into reservation.
Make ths system work, not scrap it. Democracy doesn't work in India because politicians are cheating so will you suggest scraping democracy and allow some authoritarian rule? We should fight to make the system work, not simple give up.
You agreed that you have the hate because someone is taking away your position. Is it only because creamy layer does? Will you be alright when you loose your seat to a poor villager?
We have to sacrifice for the social justice to prevail in India - I have. I belonged to so-called FC and I cudn get in with merit however I am still supporting it because I have seen with my own eyes how reservation helps.
I have no Hate for anti-reservation folks but only trying to make them understand just like how my friend made me understand the real issues.
I congratulate that you are all up for eliminating castes. I am already doing my small bit!
RE:No sanity in reservation debates
by Ya Mustafa on May 08, 2007 07:31 PM Permalink
Institutions for dalits only! Hey this is racism in all its glory and nothing else. Remember the 'Jim Crow' laws promulgated & practiced in America till recently? They were just that . Seperate schools, seperate neighborhoods,seperate resturants , seperate facilities & seperate everything for blacks in the USA ,till it was thrown out in court in 1954. So now the RSS has come our with its trump card. Segregation for dalits , starting with schools!! Keep it up guys ! Keep India shining .. um... racially!
RE:No sanity in reservation debates
by Anil Tandale on May 08, 2007 10:01 PM Permalink
those who ruled India from Mohd Bin Khasim onwards cannot claim to be backwards, and having got their home land, shd not hanker after reservations because Christianity and Islam are class-less societies. If segments of Hindus seek rservation, it will make the education and employment more representative. Instead of hairsplitting 1931 census, let us boldly agree for fresh caste based census to give best representation to all deserving.
Every body in india should aim for a casteless society. Mr caretaker is just grieving because of some brain wash. I live in a small eastern india town, and caste is a completely irrelevent factor here. Nobody asks anybody his /her caste. New generation simply refuse to be categorised. The main reason for backwardness is economic. If a brahmin is poor doent have loaf of breads to eat he cleans the toilet as simple as that. And there are a hell lot of them please belive me. Towners or city dwellers wont need me to tell them these things. They know. I think government if it really wants to do something other than harvesting votes, they will have to take a painful route. To collect recent economic data all over india as they collect the data for population etc and then give economic based help. I say help not reservation the reason is that once any body gets food w/o working he becomes inefficient. So why not teach them how to catch fish. Better to do economic stratification give them smart cards and give more and more benefits for primary secondary and college education. Give grants for each child for private tutions at 50% of market prevailing rates, give them book coupans etc. But let them compete fix a criteria for giving freebies. But politicians will be simply afraid to do this because when people become literate they will become irrelevent so why not 'break them and rule them'. This is simple and corruptive. This is corruption they are pushing backward more back and back. B R Ambedkar was a wise man, why had he allowed reservation for 10 years only. Forget it may be 10 years was not sufficient bu after 60 years it is completely irrelevent. government will have to adopt novel approach to tackle the problem.
The gentle man who wrote this column is just one of those intellectuals who claim to be the champions of equality but not in reality. It is not the just question of just equality, it is a question of social justice which these so called intellectuals will not even like to pronounce such a word. Just read his column again, he has just mentioned the name of the ministry out of compulsion. So you can understand his affiliation. How to decide the backwardness? Many get confused with economic backwardness. Gentle man, both cannot be equated. It is the caste, which created havoc in this society for thousand of years. So the caste invented by the ancestors of today%u2019s intellectuals is certainly the deciding factor. So caste can never be ignored. So to bring the social equality, it is important to introduce discrimination in our constitution. That is how reservation came into effect. As far as fresh data concerned, I would certainly agree and welcome that a caste based survey is needed to educate all sections of the society to make doot ki doot pani ki pani. But congress and BJP are certainly not interested in making this survey because they are not at all full heartedly interested to do such thing which will expose who are the real creamy layer making fool of the society. So I urge the real cream layers who enjoyed the cream and kurshi for thousands of years must not teach the people affected by the caste based system about creamy layer concept. In the name of equality, one should not pretend to be the guardian of the whole society. This is what is happening now by a few individual backed by the judiciary.
So all of a sudden what has dawn on these two individuals (judges) to intervene in the process of implementing the law enacted by the parliament. How can the two fellows overturn the matter, which was already decided by the five-member bench? Why nobody is discussing about that now. One can easily understand, how much the private industry backed media and evil forces of this society are working overtime to kill the word reservation which is going to turn towards them any time soon. Of course it is inevitable. In this process one may soon witness the over reach of judiciary to be brought back forcibly to their limits by the parliamentary democracy. Judiciary can only survive if Parliament protects them. So it is for the judiciary to maintain the faith of the people by not to getting influenced by self serving forces.
RE:Judicial high handedness
by abhi edara on May 08, 2007 03:28 PM Permalink
Good Mr, a very nicely plaed english words cannot bring the truth, you are saying that discrimination is introduced in the constitution purposefully as the caste system has been affecting the society since years, what a foolish analysation, that means you are saying that the then OCs should be made to OBCs and the OBCs should be made to OCs, you are actually increasing the problem but not finding the solution, these so called OBCs have enjoyed a lot more when compared to what the existing OCs enjoyed since years, so if two people are trying to bring the truth out you are actually objecting, one person is sufficient to lead charge even two people are not required, truth finally prevails, if people like you cannot stop that with your well placed english words.
RE:Judicial high handedness
by dhanraj dhanu on May 08, 2007 03:55 PM Permalink
Mr. Caretaker well written article but please clarify my doubts.
What is the meaning of OBC. because I know only forward class and backword class. If one caste is socially and economically backward put that caste in Backword Caste. Why OBC? Dalits are truely socially deprived group and want of reservation but these so called OBC are do not want to identify with Dalits and other real socially and econoically backword groups but they are politically strong group, so want the reservation.
You are used very effective words such as descrimination and so, and you have also commented on Judiciary. If Parilment is peprsented by Shahabuddins, Lalus, Sorens and Siddus then you forget about parliment doing justice.
Now plese answer me again what is the diference bertween Backward class and OBC. What you meant by other? Thanks in advance
RE:Judicial high handedness
by Gaurav Prateek on May 08, 2007 05:40 PM Permalink
Aadarneeya Caretaker jee, the basic problem you raise, of social inequality, cannot go away even if reservations were introduced in the Higher Educational Institutions, because it is a state of mind. On the other hand, the country will lose by coming down from the high standards these institutions have created and maintain, irres[pective of caste. Also, instead of getting angry at this author or at the two judges, please read the article more carefully, without any prejudice.
RE:Judicial high handedness
by Monk on May 08, 2007 04:34 PM Permalink
Not a single mention of merit in your argument. Just the same ranting about thousands of years of discrimination. I would just ask you to think of the following. Are you capable of getting into these institutions on merit? If not then why? Was it your caste that held you back or your economic status?
RE:Judicial high handedness
by Prem Kumar on May 08, 2007 10:36 PM Permalink
How DUMB can you get Monk?
"If not then why? Was it your caste that held you back or your economic status?"
Don't you really understand that these two: "caste and economic status" are completely inter-linked or you just don't want to acknowledge? When your great-grandfather was allowed to sit in bench and read his text book, a fellow dalit student was not allowed into the school! He was made to wash and clean because he was branded as a janitor and was marked down for his life by your society. Was it not a CRIME? Person subjected to abject poverty will not break the cycle for next seven generations, says P.Sainath justifically.[please don't claim that you know better than P.S who is rural affiars editor for two decades and has observed their lives completely. ooh, btw, he belongs to your so-called upper caste.]
DO you understand how caste relates to economy NOW?
When you have learn in an unltra-modern school, have a motorbike to attend 4 tuitions and learn IIT coaching in best teaching institution for 2 years and get "Merit" and boast yourself against a poor student, both low-caste and economically backward so-called upper caste, in the name of MERIT? how SHAMEFUL can it get?
Youths claiming to be champions of Social Justice by fighting Reservation, has anyone EVER protested once against caste discrimination? Fight caste discrimination in your own backyard FIRST before you champion your 'great' cause! I don;'t blame them as this is how they were taught. They have to understand the reality by taking to other section of the society before taking up a strong stand!
RE:Judicial high handedness
by Monk on May 09, 2007 01:56 PM Permalink
I'm well aware of the linkage which is where my question came from. I'm afraid you haven't understood my question.
Is poverty restricted to only OBC's because of those years of discrimination? What about the poor that can't afford all that but still don't get a chance because they are not of those castes?
I fight the caste divide by not giving it any relevance in my life. You could do well to do the same and start thinking how the economically poor get ahead and not the social poor.
RE:Judicial high handedness
by my message on May 08, 2007 06:20 PM Permalink
What of the poor among brahmins? Do they rot just because you say that their fore-fathers "discriminated"?If reservation has failed even after almost 60 years, then it means that the concept is flawed and needs a re-think and correction. The way reservation is being implimented now, there will not be any change even if 100% is reserved.
Further, the two judges have no political axe to grind like the Education Minister has. This should be kept in mind by all.
RE:Judicial high handedness
by on May 08, 2007 09:39 PM Permalink
Reservation - is it Rotten yet? how many times we fight over this? here is my take on the subject: First, a FREE buck will never help anyone. Social inequality - Economic inequality, I don't see a major difference. What I mean is a large section of people were oppressed for god knows how long making them socially inequal by a lessor group of people for want of power or whatever they were after. So that invariably made the oppressed class economically backward too. It's not like a Dalit was very well off and was still oppressed. So now what is the real problem -- How do we eradicate this social inequality with an ultimate goal of becoming a just and prosperous society. What do we do to achieve this goal, first thing we need is to educate people, I cannot stress this point enough, that all men/women are equal, they all can develop similiarly given similar opportunities. This should be the basis and crux of education with whatever academic interests we choose to pursue. Both oppressor and oppressed should understand that we are aiming for a new order of siciety where all sections of people are on a common ground. So just imagine a very rough surface that needs to be smoothened, what do we do, we chip away the raised parts and fill the low parts and brush it a little bit to make it a level surface. This does not meen that we go rob the rich (oppressors) and give the wealth to the poor (oppressed) because society is not just a rough surface that can be smoothened in this manner. So the reservations came into being, whether that was a good idea or not, if there was a better way to deal with the problem or not is a different matter (and the way we are fighting even today, shows that no one has a better idea or even if someone has, it never made it to the people who can implement it). And there had to be laws making any kind of descrimination a punishable crime. All religious institutions, educational institutions and etc. cannot discriminate people based on their social status. So these things were implemented. But did it change the mindset of people to accept the basic fact that all humans are equal? I think NOT, so the real problem has not been addressed at all. Until we address that problem nothing will change we will continue to fight and these spineless, corrupt politicians will get their way - they are the real OPPRESSORS of current generation.
So, here is something that came to my mind - how about making another law - lets say - Make caste conversions legal, just like a Hindu can covert to muslim or a christian and vice versa. Or even better there can be no mention of caste in any walk of life in the country, who ever talks about it will be jailed. Will such a measure makes any difference? It could, just like the laws that we currently have could. The basic problem will still remain people have to understand that all are equal, until then they will find ways to discriminate less fortunate people.
Now, to the current discussion - there are enough laws in India now to fight social injustice legally in court, that is power to people. All that needs to be done is again, "Educate" them properly. Now the practical problems, I believe most of the socially backward classes are also economically backward (forget about creamy layer for a sec - it won't be much anyway). So how do you get the children of those families to school while preserving the livelihood of the family? Governement/Society(meaning you and I) should do everything in our power to help them (you dont have to see if that family is a dalit family or a really poor Brahmin family). Like, providing books, clothes etc. (a lot of which are already being done by the gov.) but on the peoples part they should also make an effort to use those facilities and try to come upto speed and compete. Here comes the problem of "Free Buck", it is human tendency to become lazy and not do anything as long as we get something free. So, let everyone compete irrespective of the social belonging - for professional studies, for jobs etc. but provide them with everything possible for competing with "Fortunate" people. If a student competes and qualifies for higher/professional studies but is not able to pay up the fee - then there must be a provision under law which enables that student to goto college - provide subsidy in fee, provide a part time job which can assist the student or provide a loan that he/she can repay later. Make this a very smooth process so that the students are not distracted or discouraged by the Process.
One thing everyone MUST understand is that nobody can support a human being throught out his/her life, there has to be an effort made by the individual to be independent, self sufficient.
The point is - only a change is mindset of people about fellow humans can solve the problem of "Social Injustice", no other laws, reservations can do this. If any, these superficial measures will only widen the gulf between people, especially in these trying economic and global conditions no one would be willing to lose an advantage, whether it is fair or unfair. So, we have to go back to basic humanity and see why people are so desperate for success, security, power for which they willingly or unwillingly do things that they don't mean to.
But the definition of the classes who deserve it needs to be relooked. I would not want some deserving candidate of good education because he does not have enough money! Instead of working towards giving equal opportunity to every one, bribing ppl with non-existent success is just politics!
Reservation is about hypothesis that it is about of couple of races as colonists mentioned, any thibg good about the subjects of colony is unthinkable, except the barbrians fighting with each other.
It is this viciou denial of India by colonial powers, that should be understood. If people are ready to have a colonial view of themselves, then why oppose reservation. Reservation is about ossifying a colonial hypothesis on india, including a aryan dravidian race idea.Though journalists were not informed by Romilla thappers, The brits census was done to find out these races !
What can these bunch of legislatures do when they would be denied ticket by mafiosi ?
This is compounded by the fact that, The reserved humanitarians from delhi have been trained in maoist and marxist ideas - class and its progression and fighting. They make more noise on fighting to save their reservation in ghettoes, often self decsribed as emminents, thats what the third rate historian can achieve, and they achieve it.
Poor legislatures will have stiff competition from these ghettoes in making noise about the poor, so they team up with each other.
They along with their chelas in media make a strong team. It is good to Ignore them.
When semi-educated people like Karunanidhi, who don't have broader understanding of the issues, say that the court is encroaching on executive or legislature - we know that nothing more thinking ability can be asked from Karunanidhi.
But Manmohan have been a widely respected economist and must be having the understanding of the issues and should not have commented supporting the likes of Karunanidhi. The educated people of the nation had better expectations from him . Politics have got the better of Manmohan and with age he is losing his mental-edge/sharpness. Political compulsions are closing his eyes. He should not have in the first place taken the role of PM.
RE:Manmohan's endorsement have indeed been shameful
by hellavauser on May 08, 2007 02:35 PM Permalink
First, Karunanidhi for your information is very highly educated! K and Manmohan are great politicians (in negative sense)..to keep the ppl occupied and make a new issue when there was none..is what needs to be done to keep the throne
RE:Manmohan's endorsement have indeed been shameful
by myself on May 08, 2007 03:21 PM Permalink
Biswajit Ghoshal you said "semi-educated people like Karunanidhi" you know what is the qualification of karunanidhi?
RE:Manmohan's endorsement have indeed been shameful
by Himesh Stinks on May 08, 2007 06:56 PM Permalink
manmohan Singh doesn't support karunanidhi. Manmohan needs his support. And thus the politicians get to finger the government policies. And ofcourse there are others like Arjun Singh... Ahh, the perils of a Democracy !
RE:Manmohan's endorsement have indeed been shameful
by Laughing Buddha on May 08, 2007 07:39 PM Permalink
karunanidhi has phd in toilet cleaning from bhangee* nadu university. he is the highest toilet cleaner among tamils(toilet cleaners). nowadays he is angry with vaiko because vaiko wont let him clean his toilet anymore. hahahahahhahahaha
RE:Manmohan's endorsement have indeed been shameful
by counter view on May 09, 2007 11:39 PM Permalink
Laughing Buddha, your life is going to be not so jolly and laughable soon...
