A frustrated person misleading our dalits(if this word really means something). He just wasted hi time in learning crap. How can a language be responsible for caste system. Dear Prasad ji, You didn't know anything about Indian culture, traditions, values and languages.
English is just a technical language and it has nothing to do with the caste system. The basic fact is that you are just aware of the word caste system you don't know why this system started and why this came into the practice. If there is some work there will always be someone to do it. Teaching was considered as a good work and to do job for someone was considered as a bad work. Now in private firms there are so many people working for someone(Tata, Birla) so in your language those all people are DAS(slaves). This is a common trend in the society that the son inherites the father's profession. It happened too in our society and people like you started calling it caste system. if you ask that why this happend, you will have to answer first that why Abhishek bachchan is an actor. Why Rahul Gandhi is a future prime minister. Why Sunil Gavasker's son is a cricketer. Why 80% farmers' son are farmers. There are so many examples.
I want to ask you a final question why you are spreading this hatred among the people of India just to grow in your profession. There are so many problems in India to discuss about, to write about, Please concentrate there.
A frustrated person misleading our dalits(if this word really means something). He just wasted hi time in learning crap. How can a language be responsible for caste system. Dear Prasad ji, You didn't know anything about Indian culture, traditions, values and languages.
English is just a technical language and it has nothing to do with the caste system. The basic fact is that you are just aware of the word caste system you don't know why this system started and why this came into the practice. If there is some work there will always be someone to do it. Teaching was considered as a good work and to do job for someone was considered as a bad work. Now in private firms there are so many people working for someone(Tata, Birla) so in your language those all people are DAS(slaves). This is a common trend in the society that the son inherites the father's profession. It happened too in our society and people like you started calling it caste system. if you ask that why this happend, you will have to answer first that why Abhishek bachchan is an actor. Why Rahul Gandhi is a future prime minister. Why Sunil Gavasker's son is a cricketer. Why 80% farmers' son are farmers. There are so many examples.
I want to ask you a final question why you are spreading this hatred among the people of India just to grow in your profession. There are so many problems in India to discuss about, to write about, Please concentrate there.
Guys no matter what the point of discussion is religion is being talked abt. I mean we shud argue and counter-argue sans religion and m sure the opic wud be more than interesting
RE:religion everytime?????
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 04:44 PM Permalink
Very correct. Caste system is a social system. It has nothing to do with Hindu religion. It is as good as arguing that slavery of Blacks has been an integral part of Christianity.
Slavery of Blacks and oppression of Dalits are strictly social problems, unrelated to religions.
That is why even when Dalits convert to Christianity, caste remains and dalit christians have separate churches or pews. If it was a religious problem, it would have been solved by conversion to another religion. It is not solved because it is a social problem, not a religious one. Even Muslims have castes and a rajput Muslim will never marry with a dalit muslim. It is clearly a social problem.
This argument that caste oppression is equal to Hinduism is a mischief propagated by Christian missionaries for conversions. Some stupid Hindus lacking intellectual depth fall for it and start apologising.
There is an easy solution. Whenever a white man or Christian talks about caste system, you start talking about how Christianity is responsible for slavery of the Blacks.
RE:RE:religion everytime?????
by Aqua on Mar 07, 2007 04:49 PM Permalink
well Mr. Choudhary thanx for the efforts u took to clarify all this, but tell me what good it wud serve to us if we keep on cribbing abt this whole religion thing, do u think our govt is strong enuff to stop all the conversions, irrespective of who converts to what. I m sure education is the best remedy to all this crap
RE:RE:religion everytime?????
by KVSKUMAR on Mar 09, 2007 11:04 AM Permalink
Caste is not a social system as you seem to content with. Realize that everything systematic is science; similarly every science is systematic. What is the system & science in the caste? Could you clarify?
In casteism there is only opportunism of the pseudo priestly and princely castes. Remember this system only has led to the perpetual bedridden state of our %u2018devbhasha%u2019 the Sanskrit, awaiting for death. The so-called upper caste rulers of our land did not allow this bhasha to be learnt by so-called low castes. The result? It is struggling to breath today? Today it is free for all but with few or no takers, why? Because you can%u2019t keep anything and everything perpetually for yourself, that is nature%u2019s system and rule.
Caste is nothing but the byproduct of discredited pseudo oopper castes%u2019 evil thoughts intended at forestalling any attempt at the social upcoming of other members of our society and nation which resulted in the subjugation of our land many times over in the past by foreign invaders. Hence it is not a system it is a menace/threat to the very existence of our nation.
folks, money only gives respect and all. if you are rich enough, no body see your caste your language your religion and you will be well recieved evrywhere.
It loooks that this man is capable of learning from experience (only). Else, how can one explain his joining the Maoists and departing them after realising their worthlessness? Similarly, I presume that sooner than later he will realise his folly of asking Dalits to forgo and forget their mother-tongues. Learning English is good, I also agree. But there is no reason one should forget his culture and identify with the Whites.
If this person wants to help the underprivileged people of our nation, he should first look to far south..... to the lives of Sree Narayana Guru, Kumaranasan and Ayyankali (of Kerala) the revolutionary social reformers. Even a passer by will appreciate their contribution to Kerala's social transformation from a madhouse of casteism to what is today..... ahead of any state in the country in terms of almost all social development indices.
None of these reformers discard Hinduism or their mother-tongues, instead they challenged the pseudo upper castes with their sheer will power and acumen. Indeed Sree Narayana Guru had even installed a Shiv Linga and challenged the so called brahmins.
For the undercastes of India to break away their shackles there is only one way. Get educated at all costs and at the same challenge the pseudo upper castes in their own dens & domains.
Realise your strength and worth. Imagine for example if the so called OBCs, SCs, STs, Dalits, etc., etc. in our nation were to install idols of their own Gods and Goddess and stop going to pseudo brahmin controlled temples and/or throwing coins into the bowls placed infront of each, then most of these will dry up and ultimately become pauper institutions. Also one can see most of the socalled & self-appointed xaviers of our Godes and Goddess making silent retreat for greener pastures.
Now imagine positively, if the money so collected by all our temples were to be used for social upliftment of our brothren, I am sure that in every district of our nation we can set up one world class educational centre and impart free education to every citizen not just Hindus without any issues of reservation, etc.
Now ask why it is not happening? Why is it that missionaries are only setting up schools in our country? The answer is that the pseudo upper castes are afraid of level playing field where they will be required to prove their mettle, which they hugely lack, except for pretentions.
Now realise realise that the strength of any nation and civilization is its educated, enlightened, self-confident and above all self-respecting citizen/member. If crores of our nation's citizens lack even basic education (the rest follows), the cause had indeed been the pseudo upper caste clutch/rule of this land for milleniums together. The Mughals and Colonisers who came later have done much less damage.
Those who claim to be upper caste should hang their head in shame for the state of affairs of our land today. Let each of us throw away the string of caste from our psyche and physique as well. Discard all caste identifying/fiable surnames and identities.
I quote Sree Narayana Guru
"Ask not, Say not caste; Let a person belong to any religion, the relition is good if the person is of good character."
Let us give respect to each individual to be eligible for it ourselves.
RE:Caste & Languagges
by Ramakrishna Panicker on Mar 09, 2007 10:56 AM Permalink
Dear Kumar, in your message you wrote that Acharya Sree Narayana installed a Shiva Linga and challenged the upper caste. Really thyself was not challenging the upper class people. Even upper Class people too regularly visited Shivagiri Madham to hear his divine voice. Once Mr. Karuvannur Ramachandran interviewed our ever loved Lalitambika Antarjanam for Kerala Kaumudi daily or so wherein me came to understand that when Antarjanam were a child of frock-age visited Shivagiri Madham with thy father. Like very many Brahmins widely knowledge had been visited therein Gurudev Ravindra Nath Tagore and even Mahatma Gandhi include. Shree Narayana installed more than 200 idles through out Kerala, and even in Karnataka and Tamilnadu too. Shree Narayana swallowed the poison like Shiva Shankara for the down trodden people of Kerala. Himself was not merely a Sanyasi and himself has a place like Aadi Shankaracharya in Hindu History. Really himself was a Guru for all Religions - Matham Ethayaalum Manushyan Nannayal Mathi was one of his advises. Sometimes the research schollers can find a new light in the philosophy of Mahatmaji after meeting at Shivagiri Madham. Summarily, if we argue about the Indian Languages carry the legacy of castism is not a valuable argument. In 1980-83 period there was a prolonged write in the Hindi Magazine Sarita which me translated the title as Hindumatham Samooha Vikhatanathinte Tayver (Hinduism is the root cause for humancolapse in India)as per the advise of Mr. Joseph Edamarug which me later felt useless and thrown away. The human who lost real view and vision repeatedly argues like this. Our work is Worship and the same leads to the path light. k.r.panicker, panicker_ram@rediffmail.com
RE:RE:Caste & Languagges
by KVSKUMAR on Mar 09, 2007 03:42 PM Permalink
Thanks Mr
When I used the word challenge, I did not mean that the guru called out to champions of casteism to come for feisty fights. In short his action in itself was a challenge and an exhortations to everyone, especially to champions of casteism, to see reason and be rational.
In a society of high bigotry, as it existed in his times, where so-called low caste people were not allowed even right of way and entry into temples, if the Guru%u2019s act of consecrating a Shiva idol is not a challenge then what? Consecration of idols is solely the premise of the so-called upper caste even today.
Worshiping Gurus, Matas or Gods and Goddesses or reading holy scripts and books does not make any difference if each of us don%u2019t follow the true meaning of divine advices or writings. Kerala has a superb system of house-names, which can be used to identify a person without using his/her surname/caste-name. How many follows it?
Also, I do not understand why Gandhiji did not identity and call himself a Harijan. May be he had the premonition that the very word Harijan will become a synonym for low-caste as is the case today.
By the by, you may read the two links below, it is worthwhile.
RE:RE:Caste & Languagges
by KVSKUMAR on Mar 09, 2007 03:44 PM Permalink
Thanks Mr
When I used the word challenge, I did not mean that the guru called out to champions of casteism to come for feisty fights. In short his action in itself was a challenge and an exhortations to everyone, especially to champions of casteism, to see reason and be rational.
In a society of high bigotry, as it existed in his times, where so-called low caste people were not allowed even right of way and entry into temples, if the Guru%u2019s act of consecrating a Shiva idol is not a challenge then what? Consecration of idols is solely the premise of the so-called upper caste even today.
Worshiping Gurus, Matas or Gods and Goddesses or reading holy scripts and books does not make any difference if each of us don%u2019t follow the true meaning of divine advices or writings. Kerala has a superb system of house-names, which can be used to identify a person without using his/her surname/caste-name. How many follows it?
Also, I do not understand why Gandhiji did not identity and call himself a Harijan. May be he had the premonition that the very word Harijan will become a synonym for low-caste as is the case today.
By the by, you may read the two links below, it is worthwhile.
RE:Caste & Languagges
by SSCD on Mar 07, 2007 04:45 PM Permalink
missionaries get millions of $$$s from western countries. Their budgets are massive and they want to "harvest" for christianity. They have control over media and do a good job of PR.
Lot of Hindu temple trusts run educational institutions, case in point Shegaon trust near Akola in Maharashtra.
It's very easy to abuse someone, and order of magnitude difficult to do positive/constructive work.
RE:RE:Caste & Languagges
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 04:50 PM Permalink
You are right SSCD. The social work of Hindu organisations is never highlighted.
Also, all donations given in Hindu temples are usurped by the Indian government and become a part of the treasury. Nothing is returned to the temsples for renovaitons or running charity and the priests are forced to beg for money. It is an apartheid against Hindu religion that was started by Nehru (a curse on him!).
While churches collect tithe and run social services from the collection, Hindu temples are crippled becasue their entire donation money is taken away by the Indian government.
So whenever you go to a temple, never put any money in the locked box. That is opened by govt. officials and the temple does not get any money. Always put the money in front of the deity.
RE:RE:RE:Caste & Languagges
by Aniruddha Phatak on Mar 07, 2007 06:04 PM Permalink
I disagree. Social work of Hindu organisations is not up to the required levels. More money, work is needed along with volunteers.
Hindu temples do carry money boxes. However, the money collected to money required ratio is very low.
Also, money is not enough by itself. Volunteers who use the money wisely are also needed. But because most of us are very busy with our daily lives (I am not saying that this is wrong), we can not volunteer to do much social work.
The good thing is that awareness is much higher today than what it was 10 years back.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Caste & Languagges
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 06:21 PM Permalink
Go through this link
www.sevabharathi.org
You will know what enormous work Hindus are doing for uplift of poor people. This you will never find mentioned in any newspaper.
Of course, much more needs to be done. So donate generously. Hindus should also have a tithe or zakat system like Christians and Muslims. The system of "Punya Daan" should be revived.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Caste & Languagges
by KVSKUMAR on Mar 08, 2007 02:16 PM Permalink
Read the link below and you will come to know whether Hindus lack finance/publicity or about "enormour work" to uplift the poor that we do / don't do.
hey guys, Watchout for these upcoming discussion topics on rediff.
1. Indian classical music has caste legacy -- authored by Ms Romila Thapar & Mr Ipod 2. Indian food has caste legacy --authored by Mr Big Mac 3. Indian clothing has caste legacy -- authored by Mr Louis Phillipe 4. Yoga & Pranayam has caste legacy -- authored by Fr. Franscis Aerobics 5. Ayurveda has caste legacy -- authored by Mr Novartis
I read Chandra Bhan in Pioneer every Sunday. He is actually a anti-Hindu communist. His articles are full of casteist bile and hatred.
Also, he seems to be in close touch with the church and is most probably a crypto-Christian, hand in gloves with Western agencies. As stated in the article, he does not have a fixed source of income. Such penny less, frustrated people are easy pickings for CIA and MI6.
This telling to Dalits to reject all Indian languages and move on to English is akin to Saudi Arabia's attempts to tell Indian Muslims to shun Indian languages and learn only Arabic.
By tellign Dalits to reject Indian languages as casteist (a laughable argument) and take up English, they are encouraging them to turn away from the idea of India, look to the West for inspiration and be ready to accept the True Faith which will make them lackeys of the White race.
In future, may be an another 15 years, India is going to witness major Dalit turmoil if these Western (mainly American) agencies are not check-mated by Indian government.
India will break up, which is actually the American government's publicly stated goal. The American ambassador to UN stated that the US considers India an artificial construct and one of the objectives of US foriegn policy is to ensure its break up into different parts so that it is never able to pose any threat to Western civilisation.
RE:Beware of America! They will do to India what they have done to Pakistan
by vijay kumar on Mar 07, 2007 03:40 PM Permalink
The venomous remarks/reaction of Mr. chaudhry is not shocking .There is nothing surprising but on excepted/anticipated lines which can be from a hardcore castiest upper cast hindu,for them any talk of welfare of Dalit is threat to Hindu religion and Indian culture. the peaople like him are there to maintain the hindu castism and wants to oppose any things which helps the dalit. vijay
RE:RE:Beware of America! They will do to India what they have done to Pakistan
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 04:22 PM Permalink
Kumar Sahib: "any talk of welfare of Dalit is threat to Hindu religion"
Are you on drugs? How have you come up with argument? And how are my arguments "venomous"? Can you counter them logically, without discussing my personality?
RE:Beware of America! They will do to India what they have done to Pakistan
by praveen on Mar 07, 2007 04:11 PM Permalink
well comparing arabic with english makes no sense. Unfortuantely the whole discussion is in so called English. So we have all been westernized. English is no more a brithish or american language but an international language. It is evident you have to tell all this in english and not in indian language.
I do not agree language has a caste conotation but believe education is definetly a means for empowering.
RE:RE:Beware of America! They will do to India what they have done to Pakistan
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 04:20 PM Permalink
Praveen jee:
Every body is welcome to learn English. But this Bhan guy is telling Dalits to only learn English and reject all Indian languages as these are instruments of caste oppression. This debate is about this argument, not about learning English. It is as good as telling American blacks to reject English and learn only Sanskrit because English an instrument by which racialism is perpetuated by the white race.
RE:Beware of America! They will do to India what they have done to Pakistan
by SSCD on Mar 07, 2007 02:14 PM Permalink
I hope rediff.com and Sheela Bhatt do not dare to publish the second part of this rubbish interview.
Also, they should resist themselves from publishing such crap on a reputed site.
RE:Be careful of Western scholars
by B SRIPAD BHAT on Mar 07, 2007 03:53 PM Permalink
Mr. Sanjay Choudary again and again and again and agian arguing the third class thoery of sangh parivar ! thease people will never come out of the christianity , islam hangover. subjected to if we started discussing new developments or any type of new strategies to uplift the dalits from the present social discriminations, thease fundamentalists like sanjays and all other sangh parivar gang diverts the whole issue to the islam fundamentalism or christianism.it was happening in india since last 50 years or more also.but thease poeple should under stand that the citizens of india already denounced such third class arguments very long time back.
RE:RE:Be careful of Western scholars
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 04:14 PM Permalink
Bhat Sahib:
How are the arguments third class? There is enough documentation about what I have said. Read Arun Shourie's book "Harvetign Our Souls" or even Niyogi Committee's report to know the strategy of missionaries and how they have identified dalits as the soft underbelly of Hinduism.
It is blind people like you buring with hatred of fellow Hindus who are responsible for enslavement of India for a thousand years. You have learnt no lessons from history. At least learn from China if no one else and see the way it treats these western scholars and their theories.
This argument that whoever can regonize the work of Western intellgence agencies in widening the faullines in Hindu society is anti dalit or a casteist is quite stupid.
If there are false cospiracy theories in the world, there are real conspiracies too.
The workd of US financed NGOs in break up of USSR is well know, even referred to by Putin serveral times. Pitting one community against another in a country you percieve as a future threat is an old trick all intelligence agencies play.
I don't have time to cure you of your ignorance or bigotry.
RE:RE:RE:Be careful of Western scholars
by B BHAT on Mar 07, 2007 04:51 PM Permalink
mr. sanjay chodary,
the first the first the most sensible question to you is who is Mr.Arun Shourie to decide about our souls ? or about dalits souls ? donn't quote the rejected poeple like shourie for your defence.then you will become a joker !My request to you is to back to cenral librery in your city and pick the books written by Mahatma Gandhi( if knows about him ? ), DrB.R.Ambedker ( if you knows about him ?), Ram manohar Lohia ( no chance you knows )and read them without biased mind ! after one month at least people like you can distinguish betwen what actually the bigotry and what actually not !
RE:RE:RE:RE:Be careful of Western scholars
by sanjay choudhry on Mar 07, 2007 04:55 PM Permalink
Do you know Mahatma Gandhi's views on conversions? Or why Ambedkar rejected Christanity and Islam and chose Buddhism?
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Be careful of Western scholars
by B BHAT on Mar 07, 2007 05:27 PM Permalink
To Sanjay chodary, Again and Again we are requesting you Pl. go back to library and start reading gandhi,Ambedkar,Lohia books.Donn't argue for the sake of it.the more you argue as above the more and more you looks like half cooked brain who stands at the middle of the cross road and wondering where to go ! donn't preach what gandhi,Ambedkar told ,unless and untill you understand them completly.If cann't uderstand them in depth with more intellectually you looks like a L K.G. child
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Be careful of Western scholars
by MP Raju on Mar 07, 2007 07:36 PM Permalink
"the first the first the most sensible question to you is who is Mr.Arun Shourie to decide about our souls "..
Mr. Bhat, even Mahatma Gandhi or Ambedkar or Lohia don't have the authority to decide about our souls. It's individual's right to decide that..
The solution provided by the author is based on the premises 1)learning an alien language (or for that matter learning any new thing) is quite easy especially for a mind entangled in complexes 2) Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, who chose Buddhism and not chrishnity or Islam for mass conversion of his followers could not understand the importance of English
Just we think, what is the gain when we go behind with a wrong doer is pulling the follower? MAN CHANKA HAI THO KATAUTHI MEN GANGA. We request you to not lengthen such matter to call the public attention. Every one earns the income of their work. Find out some good things and persons to say and display. Simply you ask the readers or read atleast the readers message. Do not through human excreta to normal human beings. You live and let others to to live.
