The 1971 war was too critical for Pakistan. They expected victory. Musharraf was very much in action then. The defeat hurt them so much that, to overcome it and divert the mind of the public, the Country moved from a Democratic Country to being an Islamic State. Musharraf was also quite taken back with this defeat. Hence when he was in charge of the Army, he tried hitting back at India thru Kargil, expecting a victory, which would help him in healing his wounds of 1971.
RE:Cannot accept the loss
by yusuf khan on Jun 27, 2007 11:50 PM Permalink
Dear friend, For your kind information Pakistant was not and still not an Islamic State. Why do u people misquote things without even the basic knowledge.
RE:Cannot accept the loss
by Harish Gurumoorthy on Jun 28, 2007 09:57 AM Permalink
Yusuf Mian, I thought Pakistan is referred to by the name "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" in the Paki passport.
RE:Cannot accept the loss
by Raghav on Jun 28, 2007 03:01 AM Permalink
Each pakistani passport says "Islamic Republic of Pakistan". Is this not an Islamic state ?
I go with Musharraf! It is impossible to believe that Nawaz Sharif was not in the know in the operation, at best it would not have had his open approval! As Musharraf said, if the PM was not the know what his Army Chief was doing then he doesn't deserve to rule the nation! If Vajpayee played it to Nawaz Sharif then no one can be more ignorant! Musharraf is a tactless, adventure driven, yet a Pakistani patriot! Nawaz Sharif was clever, if the operation succeeded he would have had the all the glory on him; since it boomranged he is blaming Musharraf! Musharaf is a fine soldier and Nawaz Sharif a shrewd politician!
Indira Gandhi didn't make any of these goof-ups; she won a major war decisively for the country and Vajpayee had to sweat it out to pushback the enemy soldiers even that amidst controversies by forcing the then Army chief VP Malik to expedite even at the cost of losing a few youngmen not beyond their mid-thirties! Nothing proud to write home about.
RE:It's a mistake!
by Harish Gurumoorthy on Jun 28, 2007 09:59 AM Permalink
Musharraf is a fine soldier? Now that's news to us. Pray tell us which operation supervised by him was ever a success? Of course, please do not include domestic conquests such as the massacre of Gilgitis or the 1999 coup.
RE:It's a mistake!
by Kabeer on Jun 29, 2007 01:35 PM Permalink
Born and raised in a lower middle or a middle class family from an immigrant family he rose to the position of a Army Chief in a Punjabi dominated army; he might not be the best of the Army chiefs of Pakistan but he was a part of the SSG the elite wing of Pakistani Army. Despite being a Mohajir he had the guts to take on his Prime Minister when his predecessor Jahangir Karamat cowed down to Nawaz despite having his community's-the Pakistani elite Punjabi- support. Against this background, when the midair crisis broke Musharraf had just a few minutes time to take a decision and flatly refused the safer option of landing in the 'Enemy" country to the tougher option of being jailed for life in his country. Look at from Pakistani perspective. If a sililar thing happened in India how do you rate an Indian soldier opting to take safe refufe in Pakistan? He wouldn't have made it had he not been a fine soldier.Even at this age when he is mostly out of uniform, you can test his math ability.
RE:It's a mistake!
by Harish Gurumoorthy on Jul 02, 2007 11:34 AM Permalink
Yaar Kabeer, a soldier's bravery is tested against another soldier's in a battlefield, not against a politician on home turf. As for taking on Nawaz Sharif, Musharraf wasn't the first army man taking on politicians in Pakistan, he had a precedent to back him.
And please do not compare apples and oranges. The situation in India is entirely different from that of Pakistan. In India, politicians may mismanage a lot of things, but the Army has a fair degree of freedom, but never does the Army poke its nose into the political affairs.
we should look into that when their is a change in the government at centre PAK planned incursion. Pak is always playing tricky but we never learned from. We are not ready for his new game.
Indian Military must not operate like a police force , deployed merely to stop miltant infilteration , but also ensure the breeding places of miltancy across LOC is destroyed .. only solution to this problem ..just like Israil ???????????
RE:Attack & destroy Militant tranning camps ..........
by Naveen Kumar on Jun 27, 2007 08:33 PM Permalink
just like Israil ?? Israel is the most insecure nation today (among the nations having working govts). Their soldiers are openly kidnapped,, and they are at war everyday ....
RE:Attack & destroy Militant tranning camps ..........
by Haroon Ghalib on Jun 27, 2007 09:03 PM Permalink
u seem drunk!! Naveen Kumar!!! open ur eyes the sun is up an ur still sleeping!!
As they say "Never explain! Your friends don't need it and your enemies wouldn't beleive it. Anyway it's purposeless!" Do you sincerely believe that the Americans (with all their technical expertise and satellite spying) and the Chinese (a closed society in whose hotel Musharraf was staying then) aren't in the know as to what was the reality? Wouldn't it be naive to believe that the American intelligence system did not pervade the Pakistani set up and possibly to a lesser extent in comparison the Indian State? Then for whose knowledge the Vajpayee Govt played these tapes- to Congo? to Maldives? or like those who do not matter either way? Like Morarji Desai who blurted out to Zia thereby finishing off the Indian mole, Vajpayee Govt would only have succeeded in getting the Indian moles in the Pakistani set up finished or they played it to their own people. Whatever we may say, the old Cong Govts, like anglosaxons know how to govern, these JPs and BJPs are good at rhetoric and worse in delivering the goods!
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Varatharajan S on Jun 27, 2007 07:52 PM Permalink
Hi Kabeer, It is very much possible that both US and China were in the know. But, to get a diplomatic action / pressure, proof needs to be provided. Varatha
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Anand Bharadwaj on Jun 27, 2007 07:19 PM Permalink
Mr Kabeer, Are you aware of history? Kargil war is the only engagement that we did not lose a single inch of land. And during your per Congress we have lost, POK, Aksai, Arunachal in total amounting to more than 1 Lakh Sq. Mile of our area. Any Response?
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Kabeer on Jun 27, 2007 07:30 PM Permalink
And also PMs like Indira Gandhi had won major wars decisively in our favour, and pre-empted Pakistanis and occupied starategic locations like Siachin glaciers, a mirror image but a successfull operation unlike Kargil!
But the bigger point is people like Indira Gandhi didn't allow the butcher of Kargil- where young boys have lost their lives for no good reason- to be hailed by the Indian President at a banquest hosted in his favour and hail him as a "DISTINGUISHED SON OF DELHI!"
If you have a friend who died in the conflict, you will understand how such a remark hurts like slicing a scythe through your flesh! It's a bigger hurt than losing a friend for the cause of the nation!
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Kabeer on Jun 27, 2007 08:00 PM Permalink
Vajpayee led Govt hosted a banquet by the President of India on the butcher of Kargil-Musharraf- and the then President K R Narayanan heaped praise, on behalf of Vajpayee Govt., on this buther of our young sons of the nation by saying "DISTINGUISHED SON OF DELHI!" Didn't he or the Vajpayee Govt have any other word? Vajpayee Govt invited the filmstars of bollywood and other distingushed men and women of the country for a lunch hosted to Musharraf and these distinguished people rubbed shoulders with this butcher as if nothing had happened; All this was done even before the blood of our young boys dried on those icy peaks!
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by prabhat mohanty on Jun 27, 2007 08:29 PM Permalink
It's Mr Bajpayee who got away with this. BJP kept quite. Imagine any other party doing this! BJP would have got the whole country up in flame!! And this not the only thing he got away with!!!
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Sincere Citizen on Jun 28, 2007 02:22 PM Permalink
Hmm, Mr. Kabeer you seem to be blaming only BJP. Look at both sides and never forget history. Who said Hindi-Chini bhai bhai and then lost war with Chinese ? certainly not BJP Who lost part of Kashmir to Pakistan ? certainly not BJP 1971 war , was a tactical success but strategic failure now we have a 2 headed hydra with same body trying to bite us from both sides. Bangladesh is no friend of ours and has all the common goals as Pakistan. Ask the BSF. If Indira G was so smart the 1971 war could have resulted in us getting Bangladesh and POK inside India, and a partly crippled one headed hydra called Pak would have remained. Talk of brains, none of our politicians had it or will ever have it. So dont heap praises on the Congress or blame BJP, they are same quality, if anything helps BJP mentioned once of removing aritcle giving Kashmir special status.
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Anand Bharadwaj on Jun 27, 2007 08:04 PM Permalink
I agree with it. Musharaff should not have been entertained in India. We sould have just given him the protocol requirements for a foreign president and be done with it. No photo ups in Agra.. etc. He is not worth it.
That is why ou rcountry is fast becoming a boneless one.
RE:I GUESS IT's A MISTAKE!
by Anand Bharadwaj on Jun 27, 2007 07:56 PM Permalink
I understand that the death of our brave soldiers could have been avoided if the governement had given consent to cross the line. But it was more strategic decision than a military one not to cross the line. The general perception was (and is) that the enemy will disintegrate by self, why meddle with it, which will cause it to unite against India.
But having said all these, our soldiers to be more respected and every sacrifice must not go a waste. We should stop the country being eaten from inside, where one day our soldiers will be gaurding a boneless country.
The Military eats the most of the entire GDP and they have so called Military Intelligence which did not even know the rudiments of patrolling which a common steet mongrol does to its best..now this didnt happen for the first time neither the second..its like an elephant being cowed down by a fly..this is bound to happen again and again..the easiest way out is to keep saying we defeated them .. this is an down to earth corrupt nation
we lost so many lives in kargil war. when pak can attack India then why India can not attack pak in same manner. It was a total political failure and BJP should accept this.
RE:lost
by prabhat mohanty on Jun 27, 2007 08:30 PM Permalink
India is bigger and has a larger role to play in World politics. Indian can not have stay engaged with local goons like Pakisthan.
Having said that, BJP's political response was grossly inadequate at that point of time.
Actually BJP was too eager to promote Mr Bajpayee from a "politician" to a "Statesman". Because, they knew he/they would not get another chance! ( Mr Advani also tried something similar to "upgrade" himself with Jinha comment with disasterous effect!!)
RE:lost
by Ram Chauthariya on Jun 27, 2007 08:08 PM Permalink
Yes, Hindus should get our land back which Muslims in Pak took away from us. What does a Muslim do if an inch of land is taken away from him?
its like baat hajam nahi hoti ki pakistan can be that foolish to fight this war. Man even if they get few miles of land what great they will achieve. i dont know for what Pakistan fought kargil war
RE:Kargil war was a laboratory (either for pakistan or India :)
by deetee on Jun 27, 2007 06:44 PM Permalink
musharaff had proposed the kargil plan to benazir bhutto when she was PM. her question was - so after you occupy the heights then what?? musharaff had no answer. so the answer to your question is that "pakistan" did not fight the war, it was fought by ranks loyal to a rogue general in the pakistani army. and he might have done it just to improve his personal standing, a victory would have turned into some sort of mythic hero in the eyes of the pakistanis. where pakistani army is concerned dont use too much logic :-)
RE:Kargil war was a laboratory (either for pakistan or India :)
by partha bhattacharya on Jun 27, 2007 06:38 PM Permalink
If you don't know, then have a detailed study. By the way, how old were you then?
RE:Kargil war was a laboratory (either for pakistan or India :)
by anughraha mathur on Jun 27, 2007 07:11 PM Permalink
its not just part of any land...its our land and its my land.... Thats a patriotic Indian.
The land they were trying to occupy... has got a very strategic loction as it forms the supply line to all our soldiers up there for the ration, utilities, arms, amunitions....etc. If tht is cut the next day a big chunk of Indian map which we call Kashmir will be cut off...... Thats a strategic Indian.
RE:Mayati's Wealth
by thribhuvan hk on Jun 29, 2007 02:46 PM Permalink
hey pardesi!! what non-sense are you talking?? U guys don't have guts to stay in india and run away from india just to make money.. so u don't have any rights to get into such discussions...
RE:Mayati's Wealth
by partha bhattacharya on Jun 27, 2007 06:32 PM Permalink
its not the place to ask this question, btw its not ur business too....you better stay there and concentrate on your job
Kargil war what I believe was an intelligence failure. It was the government mistake that it was not able to protect and secure its borders (LOC)and the enemy took advantage of it. Initially we lost loot of our brave men in war but in the last after facing the challenge in a brave manner we won the war. The NDA regime under which this war was fought was strategically planned and bravely fought by our soldiers. There is no question which says that NDA took this was easily and we lost any of our earlier conquered points. Very few Indian know that the kargil war went Nuclear as when Mr. Nawaz Shirr was in Washington meeting with Mr. Clinton and the US Govt was putting pressure to withdraw troops from LOC AND Mr.Vajappe was personally also putting diplomatic pressure on Mr. Nawaz shariff by the way of US to withdraw troops ,during the mean time Mushraff ordered without the knowledge of PAK PM ordered to displace nuclear arsenal and to load it near pak borders. This report was conformed by CIA and when India came to know we took the very right decision to also move our own nuclear arsenal irrespective of international pressure to annihilate PK if war goes to nuclear, bcz pak govt has made its mind to take the war to nuke if they lost it. So under guidance of Mr. Vajapee India won that war and we should respect our ex pm for his vision and leadership that when the country was facing nuclear threat he used his political skills and suavity and saved the country to go nuclear
Though the switch might be operated physically by the army general, but it has to be logically operated by the PM. Hence let us salute both soldiers who fought bravley and ex-PM for his timing.
RE:Kargil War
by prabhat mohanty on Jun 27, 2007 07:06 PM Permalink
Kargil was a short burst war. Pakistan pretended that regular army was not involved. So they had maintain that lie. And to maintain that lie they could never get into full-fledged war mode. It had to played as a limited war. And it stayed that way. India did not want to cross the LOC. Pakisthan did not want show that as a country it is invoved in the war. So the scope was limited to pay out a full-fledged war. India won Kargil.
But where India lost and ended up looking bad was when we mobilised massive forces to the border after the attack on the Parliament. You spend more than 10000 crores to mobilise the support and do not even fore a pop-gun, is certainly ridiculous. To maintain a stance is OK. But you create a war like hystria. Let the force be there on the front for months and then come back home on a bullock cart whistling is not a posture to relish.
India surely has second-strike capability. So if you think Pakisthan was at fault and was the reason behind the attack on the Parliament and want to "punish" Pakisthan like USA does to many country, then go by your conviction and punish. If you are out to punish, go to enemy's doorstep with an aggressive stance, then do punish before turning back. Else do not show aggressive posture. That certainly did not show look good on our political bosses. That proved that our political bosses were uncertain,indecisive. So Mr Bajpayee surely does not deserve your praise.
RE:Kargil War
by Bhanu on Jun 28, 2007 08:57 AM Permalink
probably you dont know that our logistics were in a bad shape during that war...No.of casualties reported by Indian Army were much deviated from the actual figures....and have u head of any role of south africa in this war??
And it was a good move not to attack pakistan during and start a full fledged war...we can contain pakistan but can not fully defeat it...and it is China we should worry bout not the pakistan...
