MUMBAI (Reuters) - Indian teachers sprinkled cow urine on low-caste students to purify them and drive away evil, reports said on Saturday, in a country where millions of people remain oppressed at the bottom of the ancient Hindu caste system. Upper-caste headteacher Sharad Kaithade ordered the ritual after taking over from a lower-caste predecessor at a school in a remote village in the western state of Maharashtra earlier this month, the Times of India reported. He told an upper-caste colleague to spray cow urine in a cleansing ceremony as the students were taking an examination, wetting their faces and their answer sheets, the newspaper said. "She said you'll study well after getting purified," student Rajat Washnik was quoted as saying by the CNN-IBN news channel. Students said they felt humiliated. Hinduism reveres the cow, and its dung is used in the countryside as both a disinfectant and as fuel. In 2001, Hindu nationalists promoted cow's urine as a cure for ailments ranging from liver disease to obesity and even cancer. The newspaper said the two teachers were arrested after angry parents complained to police. They have been released on bail. India's secular constitution bans caste discrimination, but Dalits -- those at the bottom of the caste system -- are still commonly beaten or killed for using a well or worshipping at a temple reserved for upper castes, especially in rural areas. Dalits, once known as "untouchables," make up around 160 million
RE:Teachers
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 01:48 PM Permalink
These things r holding back India from become a true superpower. The upper castes take these things very casually.
These attrocities must forthwith stop. India will suffer serious econmic consequences if Dalits r discriminated. If Dalits r given equal opportunity, India GDP will grow not at 9.4% but at 20% per annum.
RE:RE:Teachers
by Well Wisher on Jun 12, 2007 01:55 PM Permalink
Dear Anand, that was really a good observation. But i say, not only Dalits, but the people of other religions also should be treated equally, there should not be any discrimination based on castes or religions. Myself is a hindu girl married to a muslim guy. I don't have any regrets, my in-laws treat me as their daughter, i am treated equally like other family members. They don't discriminate me because of my religion. This discrimination is there only in Hinduism. I am proud that i am a daughter in law of a Muslim family.
RE:Teachers
by venkat on Jun 14, 2007 08:52 PM Permalink
Suppose your family is Shia and you want to be a sunni muslim, will your in laws allow that? Will they allow your children be grown up as hindus?
RE:Teachers
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 02:32 PM Permalink
Yeah! Provided people of other religions behave. See www.faithfreedom.org/www.towelianism.wordpress.com/www.jesusneverexisted.com.
RE:Teachers
by Tinda on Jun 12, 2007 07:38 PM Permalink
Jaya jee: You will get a taste of their discrimination when you try to be bring up your children as HIndus.
RE:RE:Teachers
by Tinda on Jun 12, 2007 07:39 PM Permalink
Ask your inlaws if they are ready to give any girl from their family in marriage to a Muslim. You will get a taste of their secularism.
RE:Teachers
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 13, 2007 07:27 AM Permalink
Also when you make generalized statements like "hindu girls are attracted to muslims", you should be able to offer some kind of proof/sources. You are making the same kind of mistake like when people say "all muslims are bad".
As for your in-laws (or their relatives) not abusing you, I think 99.999% of human beings don't abuse anybody for anybody's religion and it's not really surprising (even the restrictions part). They would have been little tested in case you chose to raise your kids as hindus; but you didn't do that. Also I am not so sure you can claim it is such a free choice doing that to their wish. Raising your kids as hindus would prove you are free; as muslims doesn't prove anything.
I am not saying muslims are bad. I am saying over 90% of muslims are good (same as any other religion). My only contention is that none of your points lead to your conclusions, not strongly atleast.
RE:Teachers
by Well Wisher on Jun 12, 2007 08:26 PM Permalink
Why you people never accept when some good things are said about Muslims or any other religion. Regarding raising my children, I already have two kids and i am raising them as Muslims. My in laws did not push me for this, it's completely my Choice. This is the only true religion on earth. Yeah, there are some who are doing wrong in the name of religion, but good and bad people are present in every religion. We cannot blame the entire community for the wrong doings of some people. Not only me, some of my other friends also happily married to muslim guys. Why do you think the Hindu girls are getting attracted towards Muslims? Before raising the fingers at other religions first look at our own religion. So far i have not come acrossed any one in my family (in-laws) who abuse me for my religion. I am free to do whatever i want, i can go to mandir also there are no restrictions from anyone. Most of us have very wrong image of Muslims, even i too used to beleive that muslims are not good based on the their image projected by the media, specially BBC & CNN. When i got married in a muslim family, to my surprise i found them very loving and caring. What i heard and read about them is absolutely wrong.
RE:Teachers
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 13, 2007 12:15 AM Permalink
Jaya, you said many things (most of which I agree). In the middle somewhere you interjected phrases like "this is the only true religion in the world".
You are basing your observations on a muslim-by-birth family. But when you want to defend a religion, you must base it on its principal book. The families you experienced may not be following the quran by letter.
All that is hogwash. But I think when you say "This is the only true religion on earth", you must give much more justification than you and your friends being happy with muslim families and guys. I am happy with all my hindu friends and families and also christian friends and families, could I say "so and so is the only true religion on earth"?
RE:Teachers
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 12, 2007 05:17 PM Permalink
I think discrimination is a much more major issue in hinduism than other cultures. Other cultures seem to have it too, but not as much part of living systems as we do.
RE:Teachers
by Anand Iyer on Jun 13, 2007 12:06 PM Permalink
Jaya, Yours is an exception case.Thefamily in which u married a nice people no doubt. These r Exceptions prove the rule. Visit www.faithfreedom.org, www.towelianism.org and understand facts. Dont jump to conclusions. Understand the real problems with Islam and secure the future of your kids. U surely dont want them to get indoctrinated by Jehadis. Do u? The modus operandi of Jehadis r to convince muslim boys that Quran preaches Violence.
In fact, let your kids grow up as rationalists than as part of any religion. I am going to do just that.
RE:Teachers
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 13, 2007 04:35 PM Permalink
Yeah, some of the verses in quran scare me too. It surely seems to have more terrorist leader's rantings than religious teachings. I am surely saying muslims are bad. I am only saying that if you follow quran to the letter, you have to be violent without a choice. In this way, I am little less scared about christianism as, though bible's target is to spread the word of god, it doesn't preach violence (I may have missed a few things here and there, but surely not as prominently as quran). Hinduism doesn't even talk about trying to bring other people into hinduism (so this issue does not exist here).
RE:RE:Teachers
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 13, 2007 04:37 PM Permalink
correction, the 3rd sentence should read "I am surely NOT saying muslims are bad".
And Anand, I am not sure exceptions prove the rule. But if people are good, they are good, it doesn't prove that their religion is not good. For example, if sachin tendulkar is rich, it doesn't mean all mumbaikars, or all hindus, or all "kars", or whatever else, are rich.
RE:RE:Teachers
by Anand Iyer on Jun 13, 2007 12:08 PM Permalink
It should read www.towelianism.wordpress.com. Nice rationalist website.Another rationalist site is www.mukto-mona.com. Regards
I find every minor matter comes for a discussion at national level prior to decision making by the authorities concerned, leading many a times to judical inteference that is often called "Judicial activism"! The executive has thoroughly failed enjoying fat salaries along with multifarious facilities on public exchequer! Who will pull up such failures? The ruling hierarchy or judiciary? How much of the valued time and money are lost besides loss of labour? Is it not an easy matter to say every citizen is created by same creation and hence is entitled to enter for worship at any place of worship without hindering in any way as per his own choice wherever he wants to worship? As all are entitled with equal rights, the reservation is also to be only for financially deprived as in this case worship is the priority, irrespective of the religion or caste considerations! Do such simple decisions need such huge waste of time money and labour, if the authorities concerned spontaneously respond promptly to silently solve ? Do we suffer from a brain drain? If the failing authorities are sacked with heavy penal actions, it will act as a strong deterrent against such future failures to totally avoid any chaos in the nation!
Yeah! I promised to point out holes in Job episode. "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."[Job-2:7]
What! Satan smites Job and God looks on?????. John Jacob and other Christians. Wake up. This may happen to u. Better not trust such a God.
"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."[2:6]
Entrusting his devotee Job to Satan. Jacob John and other Christians. I pity u.
"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD."[2:1] Wow!!!! Jesus is son of God. Satan is son of God. Jesus-Satan bhai bhai. No wonder Jesus makes some satanic untterances which I already pointed out.
What John Jacob said was a lot worse. I have only quoted biblical verses and pointed out fallacies in them.
RE:Moderator, this aint wrong
by Gautam nil on Jun 12, 2007 12:47 PM Permalink
Whether it is Hinduism or Christianity or any other religion, if we study deep with every one of them with a sense of perfect neutrality without slightest degree of any type of bias, we find that evry religion concurs at that one super intelligence - the unified fielf of forces as called by Physics in science which commands every spec of this entire Universe! Let us all , of all religions communities and sects come together with hands of affection, and love to live in harmony with everlasting peace and happiness to enjoy the life fully well, which is the mission of creation!
RE:Moderator, this aint wrong
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 01:41 PM Permalink
Dont talk like this without making a study of scriptures. Visit website www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and educate yourself.
RE:Moderator, this aint wrong
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 12, 2007 05:21 PM Permalink
I think we are trying to save these religions by trying to study "deep" and trying to get some sense out of it where there is not much. A simpler alternative is to just chuck them and separate morality from religion.
RE:Moderator, this aint wrong
by Anand Iyer on Jun 13, 2007 10:18 AM Permalink
100% Correct. The amount of time spent by Indians in defending their faith and scriptures-Vedas, Quran, Bible and Manusmriti is just not worth the while.
Shed these baggages and see what greatness we achieve in next 25 years.
See Christins have marked some of my messages as "abuse". This means two things: 1. They dont like verses from their "holy book".; and 2. They have no answers/refutations to my questions and arguments.
RE:Christians dont like verses from bible.
by Gautam nil on Jun 12, 2007 12:52 PM Permalink
Anand should immediately drop IYER from his name which do all harms of disparities thoguh there is no such disparity in the creation on whose name exists Ananad! Please Anand drop tocome out clean as an example of true enlightenment instead of writing so much every day! Your such nobility will be admired by one and all of Christians, Hindus and many more religions! That may render more "ANAND" to all the lives of this entire Universe!
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 11, 2007 09:14 PM Permalink
I think these are two separate issues. Proving that Ram is not God does not imply Christian God is God. So for me, the questions do not really follow the first 4 lines. As for Ram being God, my co-hindu borns might hate me, but personally I think no God (or his son or his relatives or messengers) ever walked on earth. I think the human tendency to always is what is the essence of being God. I find it appealing to think that one day all (I mean all existence including stars and other life forms) of us together will improve so much that we will become God.
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by JGN on Jun 11, 2007 09:18 PM Permalink
Dear Sarath, there is no god; living or dead. These are inventions of highly imaginative individuals at various stages of human development. So fighting in the name of gods/religions has no meaning. However it is very difficult to make the followers of semitc religions understand because they are brought up in such an atmosphere and on account of the influence of Sunday Schools/Madrassas. Fortuneately for hindus, there is no such formal system though many of them also pick-up the habit by imitation (a child even learns his mother tonge by imitation).
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 11, 2007 09:39 PM Permalink
Yes, probably there are a lot higher hindus who can dare to say that there is no God than muslims, I am not so sure about christians though, I came across quite a few atheists around here in USA.
About the existing religions, I agree that these systems were invented by some men, for personal gains or for promoting better behavior in their times. Looking at them dispassionately, I think we can find many rules that are specific to the geographic location and its times, a clear case of not being applicable eternally everywhere.
RE:RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 10:01 AM Permalink
Detective, I agree with u. These evangelists go around saying that only Jesus can be saviour and all other religions r inferior.
I wanted to show them that bible also contains lot of unreal things. Hence these posts.
RE:RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by venkat on Jun 14, 2007 08:59 PM Permalink
This is because Ram in earth is human and he has exhibited only human qualities. He is not magician to detect where is sita? and get her magically. As a human being, he has shown the suffering he had undergone in the absence of his dear wife. If God takes avatar in Earth, He has to undergo the same sufferings, insult from u guys and humiliation other human beings suffer. For that purpose only he takes avatar. I am not saying that he does not do any extra human divine acts but he is human in earth and thats it
He exactly did that and never showed his Godly nature to anyone.
He provided every opportunity to Ravana to repent for his acts as a human being but the latter did not bulge. Moral is first act as a good human being, do divine acts only to protect people and not for himself.
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 10:07 AM Permalink
Detective.Ram was not God. Nobody claims him to be God. He passed away in Sarayu when in meditation State.So he cant be God at all becoz God cannot die.
He is called "avatar" of God or incarnation of God. Hindus had the tendency to Glorify heroes by calling them avatars. Do something outstanding and u will also be considered "avatar".
RE:RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 10:09 AM Permalink
And mind u. Ramayana records passing away of Rama.
And hindus dont claim that hindu religion is the most perfect religion and r not converting others to hinduism.
And show me any hindu post calling for conversion to hinduism of other religious people in the same manner John Jacob called hindus to convert to christianity.
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 10:19 AM Permalink
The word "avatar" comes from two sanskrit words "ava"(coming down) and "tarati"(crosses). So God comes down to earth(i.e born as a human) to teach humans how to face the evil and how to cross the ocean of life.
So all teachers of mankind(like Buddha,Mahavira and Guru Nanak) can be said to be avatars in this sense.
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by JGN on Jun 11, 2007 08:13 PM Permalink
Dear Detective, Ramayana, Bible, Koran, etc are surrealistic creative thinking of visionaries. The Bible and The Koran are full of hatred for the followers of other faiths. If you have time, download a copy of The Necessity of Atheism by Dr. D.M. Brooks from www.gutenberg.org and read the same.
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by JGN on Jun 11, 2007 08:51 PM Permalink
Dear Detective, have you seen the postings of Mr. John Jacob and some others on this message board? If not kindly go a few pages back and them tell all these things. What about the Witch Hunting in which more than 5 lakhs innocent women were burnt alive?
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by on Jun 12, 2007 04:59 AM Permalink
What about modern day gujarat what innocent little muslim boys were forced to drink petrol and were set on fire by the pious non meat eating bramins? What about the 5 lakh muslims killed and lakhs of minority and dalits that are being terrorised in gujarat even today?
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 12, 2007 05:07 AM Permalink
Why the hell don't we forget these religions and just be good? Why do we keep saying all the others are worse? It is obvious all these religions are flawed and have no relevance in this day and age. Gods cannot be so bad as are being shown by any of these religions.
RE:Anand Iyer, Answer This
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 09:58 AM Permalink
What 5 lakhs muslims killed???? Don t talk rot "on". Dont spread such patent lies.
See u have seen that today one person can singlehandedly make things hot for a fanatic.
If all of us join together and fight all religious dogmas of all religions (at least Hinduism, Christianity and Islam) then we could make a big impact.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Anand Iyer on Jun 11, 2007 06:02 PM Permalink
And while atatcking ideas/beliefs-stick to facts and posers and logically flowing opinions. No adjectives and strong adjectives. That should the strategy.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by crazyforsense on Jun 11, 2007 07:41 PM Permalink
@Anand Iyer....
Sounds good. Fighting the fanaticism followed by the so called 'followers' of religion is the key across board. If we fight all the dogmas...in India atleast we will be called 'commies'....
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 10:03 AM Permalink
No "commies" fight only hindu dogmas. Christian and muslim dogmas r acceptable to them.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Anand Iyer on Jun 12, 2007 10:23 AM Permalink
We r neither against hindus nor against Christians nor against muslims. We r pro-indians. We want all Indians to be libearted from dogmas so that Indians shine and get more Nobels for science in coming 50 years.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 11, 2007 06:24 PM Permalink
And anyway, I think we are all fighting for whatever we think is right in our own ways.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 11, 2007 06:21 PM Permalink
Personally, I don't like to criticise other faiths (by generalizing) just because somebody criticised (what is perceived as) mine. I like to take it issue by issue, irrespective of who says it, if I think its true I would accept it.
If the criticiser says that I have to "convert", then he has to take the initiative in convincing me. I am confident that questioning will take care of that and also maybe bring a change in thought process for him. Reverse criticism, in my opinion, doesn't really bring an end to fanatical thinking. And if it is well researched out, like yours (Anand), then it might chase him away, silence him, but not likely to mend his thought lines.
However, I think we keep learning new things everyday. Maybe I will change my approach someday.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Anand Iyer on Jun 11, 2007 06:29 PM Permalink
No. U have to see the person at the other end. Someone like Shahrukh Nizami has a genuine thirst for knowledge and he keeps asking questions about hinduism. He points out the practices and asks -does hinduism really preach this???? To him u should not give a reverse criticism of Islam. U r being unfair to him.
But here is a person(John Jacob) who is full of superiority complex and unleashes a barrage without facts or anything. He would condemn Geeta as stupid without reading it. In such circumstances, a moderate approach only emboldens him. U have to show him that all he says stands on imaginary foundations. Definitely, it will set him thinking.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by JGN on Jun 11, 2007 07:18 PM Permalink
Dear Anand, I doubt whether John Jacob is a Keralite Christian as they are generally polite, but this fellow is using intemperate language. Even if he is one, he a neo-convert just repeating what the missionaries have told him.
He could not provide me 3 reasons for conversion. Why waste your time and energy in countering his silly postings? If he thinks that by posting abusive message any would be inclined to convert to Christianity, he is living a fool's paradise.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 11, 2007 09:03 PM Permalink
Anand, I am sure you have your reasons for doing what you are doing. I am actually not against you doing that. It might work, or might not. But I don't want to change my approach based on who I am talking to.
Personally, I try hard only to look at issues and never the individual. Many times I feel many people make a mistake by putting the question "who said it?" ahead of "what was said?". Sure, some leeway should be given to a consistently intelligent fellow or can be a bit more sceptical when a consistent fanatic (in anybody's opinion), but fundamentally the approach won't change, for me.
I try it this way. I think it saves me a lot of energy and time in thinking only of issues (less time on peripherals) and also in keeping the whole scenario simpler and uncluttered.
RE:A simple point for Sarath, Crazy, Shahrukh and others
by JGN on Jun 11, 2007 06:47 PM Permalink
Dear Anand, if you are really interested in exposing dogmas of various religions, I recommend you "The Necessity of Atheism" by Dr. D.M. Brooks and Gods, Demons and Spirits by Dr. A.T. Kovoor. The first book is freely available on www.gutenberg.org
