First they justified the caste system saying it's the division of labor (forgetting that the devision was not based on skills, ethics and talents rather than birth). Now these same people are justifying caste system in Hinduism saying there are faults even in Christinity and Islam! Who cares what's there in the Abhramic religions. Ban the caste system and punish it's supporters to make India great!
RE:The latest excuse to discriminate people based on caste!
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 08:54 AM Permalink
And the funny thing is that all these Tanthri people who have availed casted based reservations for 5000 years say that the 50 year old reservation for the SC/ST/OBC is too long! If you truly love India and want her to be strong you might have tendencies to support reservations, excluding the creamy layer of course so that the truly poor people who need them the most are benefitted.
RE:The latest excuse to discriminate people based on caste!
by Vas on Jun 08, 2007 04:19 PM Permalink
The reservation is NOT benefitting the truly poor, dimwit. Thats why all the protest is. People in this country want reservation based on economic reasons and not social reasons. The majority of OBCs and many SCs eho avail the reservation have been wealthy in India for generations. Many of these groups were previously considered as forward castes, but chose to define themselves as backward for reaping the rerservation benefits. The very fact that you are (blissfully) unaware of the caste history and politics reveals that you are either a converted christian intent on breaking down hindu society, or a casteist. No one is against reservation for the poor, but a lot of people are against the reservations based on giving to wealthy communities that don't need the reservation but get it because of dity politics. I am against reservation as it is currently done in India, and I am not an upper-caste person! So take a hike, you ignorant dimwit! It is better you convert to christianity, if you haven't already done so, because there is more damage to hinduism with 'pretend' hindus like you.
RE:The latest excuse to discriminate people based on caste!
by Kumar on Jun 09, 2007 05:04 AM Permalink
Vas I will truly be a dimwit if I were to accept your silly excuses? The protests are because people hate lower castes and not because people are concerned about the truly poor people not getting reservations. Wake up to the new India Vas where every guy with ethics, morality and a sense of justice will question the caste system and their supporters (and not just come converted Christians as you put it). This is how the slavery ended in the USA when even the moral white people cornered the fanatics and the haters in their society.
RE:The latest excuse to discriminate people based on caste!
by Arun P S on Jun 08, 2007 10:31 AM Permalink
Sir what is your age ?
We dont know what happened 5000 yrs ago....History is one who shouts the loudest least the truth ... Western historians and Christian missionaries have been successful in creating doubts in us....
Shun the unknown ...we have to decide about future ....the decision is in our hand ....
small fish is eaten by moderate ones ...the moderate ones by ..big ones .....Growth thru reservations ...??? wait and see ....
his is a true incident happened at Guruvayur last year.
A number of aged and orphaned devotees live in the vicinity of the Guruvayur temple. They eat the prasad of the Lord, sing bhajans all through the day and lie down at Melapathur Auditorium in front of the temple. Their life is totally immersed in the Lord. On August 8 2006, out of blue and like a Tsunami, Pastor C.L. Jacob of Emmanuel centre, Palayur, and a group of Christian ruffians came in two ambulances and started evicting 16 odd aged devotees and forcing them into the ambulances. The aged persons including women, who have been in the service of Lord Guruvayurappan for three to four decades ,resisted the move to leave the temple and appealed to the Lord for help. They knew that the evil design of Pastor Jacob was to convert the entire group to Christianity. Local people rushed to the scene, finally could save them from this evil priest. On seeing this the Christian ruffians backtracked. By then the local Sub-Inspector Premanand arrived. He ordered the Pastor and the group to go away and released the hapless devotees.
But the soul-harvesting drama had its causality. 70-year-old Sundaram died of suffocation and cardiac arrest due to the pushing and pulling by the Christian goondas. Also 65-year-old Ammini committed suicide due to the fear psycosis and threat of future conversion. She had %u2018Vaka Charthu%u2019 darshan of Krishna on 12th, listened to the %u2018Lalitha Sahsarnama%u2019 archana, had lunch at the temple and jumped
RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 08:43 AM Permalink
I know Christians cook up stories to convert people, now I have seen proof of the RSS walas doing the same! Thank you for your message.
RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Vijayalakshmi G. on Jun 08, 2007 10:32 PM Permalink
What Gopa Kumar stated was widely reported in the malayalam newspapers,i.e.about the attempt to kidnap the old people by the christist group.The Emmanuel Mission is a notorious christist organization,which is involved in denigrating Hinduism to spread their own hate-filled ideology.That was the reason why they were resisted in many places.Those people-the christists, do more harm to christianity than anyone else.
RE:RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Kumar on Jun 09, 2007 05:17 AM Permalink
If what you are saying is true then the kidnappers need to be put in jail, since kidnapping is a punishable office as per the law of any civilized country. Religion may permit it but morality and ethics doesn't permit it. Morality, ethics, justice and truth is bigger than religion. The God is not the truth, the truth is the God.
RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Vas on Jun 08, 2007 04:12 PM Permalink
Kumar, you are a converted christian - that is evident, despite your declaration that you are hindu. Many christians parade around as hindus, trying to sow discord among hindus, and condemn hinduism under various pretenses. THe very fact you claim (blissful) ignorance of the extent to which christianity and christians harass hindus clearly shows your ill-intent. I'd suggest you reform christianity first, and let the hindus take care of their own problems. Part of the problem in hinduism IS christian meddling.
RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Kumar on Jun 09, 2007 05:11 AM Permalink
Vas there was another guy in these message board who last week suggested that I am a Muslim because I don't agree with the BJP wallas view. This week, I am being called a Christian. When are you people going to wake up and see the morning? End caste system now to save India. The clock is tickling and India is short on time.
RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 08, 2007 06:04 PM Permalink
I think it is wrong to make baseless personal allegations/accusations/speculations instead of discussing the issue raised by anybody.
RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 08, 2007 07:46 PM Permalink
Kumar, though its not my place, I wish to tell you to hang on to your present attitude. You don't have to become the devil to beat the devil. We need more people who abuse less and discuss more. And don't call me sir. It makes me feel old.
RE:RE:Conversion bid at Guruvayur
by Kumar on Jun 09, 2007 05:14 AM Permalink
Sarath Chandra thank you for your concern. Don't worry, I will hang on with my present attitude since I feel I have arrived at my conclusions after deep thoughts and concerns regarding the lack of ethics, morality, empathy and justice in the Indian society.
The fanatics always oppose reform, this is a lesson from history. A country becomes great only when we defeat the fanatics and their vested hateful interests.
RE:The fanatics always oppose reform
by Vas on Jun 08, 2007 04:21 PM Permalink
We have to start first by throwing out fanatic converted christians like you, posing as a hindu! An old christian trick!
RE:The fanatics always oppose reform
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 08, 2007 08:06 PM Permalink
I think you may hold some opinion. But trying to generalize people into groups such as "fanatics" or "pseudo-hindus" or "secularists" or "christians" or anything else for that matter is not justifiable.
Each individual is different. And I think every individual at any given time takes the best decision he is capable of taking with the information he has at his disposal at his time.
What is fanaticm for one may not be the same for another. I think we should desist from branding individuals into groups and try to address the issues raised by them.
It is easy to be tempted to avoid the issue by branding the individual into some group and questioning his credibility and abusing him. But it just continues the hate-mongering while not making any progress with the issue.
After reading this interview, it seems that tantri is speaking some sense. He is doing things according to rules and regulations prescribed to him.
So the role of a President is similar to this as to do things a/c to rules and regulations and not favouring any political parties and working purely on the merit of the situation.
So I vote him for our next president. What do u say?
RE:Make this guy the president
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 08:45 AM Permalink
You cannot make Tanthri the president since the president has to leave office after his term is over. You can only make this guy the king of India since he belives in heritary reservations and once he is made the king only his son will be qualified to be the next king. Also, his cousin will become the prime minister.
RE:Make this guy the president
by Prasanth Varma on Jun 08, 2007 09:35 AM Permalink
Poor Thantri..he has no place in politics. Already reserved to Gandhis, Mulayam, Abdullas, Karunanidhis, Pawars, Deoras, Pilots, Laloos, Karunakaran, K M Mani, Karunakaran, T M Jacob...the long list pending!!
I have seen that people are indulging in unnecessary debate if the doors of the temple should be open to members of other communities..
I feel that the Hindus are the right people to decide if the doors should be open to members of other communities...But if members of other communities have some faith and want to visit the temple then thue should be given selective entry...That decision too should be of the Hindus...
RE:It is the right of Hindu community to Open the doors or not to open...
by Kumar on Jun 07, 2007 10:57 PM Permalink
Vinod in a society such as ours, ripped apart by caste based descrimination, hate, exploitation and humilation, there are deeper questions that need to be addressed. Issues are not as simple as they appear on the surface.
RE:It is the right of Hindu community to Open the doors or not to open...
by Vas on Jun 08, 2007 04:24 PM Permalink
We can start the healing of hindus and hindu society by throwing out converted christian like yourself, who are the ones responsible for the current situation. Christians have used every trick in the book to create divisions, even where nonexistent, in whichever socoety they have, and used converts like you to do their dity work for them. Get rid of people like you, I say, and hindu society will be all right!
RE:It is the right of Hindu community to Open the doors or not to open...
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 03:53 AM Permalink
Desiring equality, justice and respect in the society is strengthening and not weakening it.
RE:It is the right of Hindu community to Open the doors or not to open...
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 08:24 AM Permalink
I want to reform Hinduism fist because it is my religion, my ancestors' religion and India is my native country and also the country of my ancestors. Reforming Christinity and Islam is the business of Christians and Muslims. I don't need anybody's permission to reform my own religion and make my country better. Before trying to reform someone else please reform yourself first.
RE:My questions to all the spine less commies commenting here.
by Kumar on Jun 07, 2007 10:59 PM Permalink
Madhwa your fears are unfounded. If the padres were to do something like this inside the temple where a majority are in for worship, they will be beaten black and blue. Try going inside a Masjid or a Church and mocking at them inside the masjid and church, what will be the result? We need to make India strong and bury our caste differences and discrimination immediately otherwise India will continue to be a third world country.
RE:My questions to all the spine less commies commenting here.
by Vas on Jun 08, 2007 04:31 PM Permalink
India is a third world because of converted christians like yourself. You have probably reaped enough wealth for yourself and your family using caste politics to your conveninece, without a single regard for the truly poor. YOU, of the all the person, has NO right to talk about equality and justice, you dravida converted christian! You give yourself away too much, with your caste hatred! I am not from the forward caste, but I hate politically minded, exploitative, insincere, two-faced, forked-tongue caste scam artists like you, who parade around pretending to give shit about equality or justice, when in truth you have exploited and looted India for your personal benefit. Get out of the country, and go live in the west, where they seat you in separate church because they still see you as a 'darky dog." Perhaps you should have lived in south africa, where the church created the apartheid to keep savages like you from the lily-white christian society.
RE:My questions to all the spine less commies commenting here.
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 07, 2007 11:27 PM Permalink
I think everybody reads newspapers selectively. If you have some extra information, you can share without being harsh on others. Anybody can ask questions like, before talking read bible, or quran, or geetha, or mahabharatha. I don't think even 1 on this forum would have read all those documents. But for abusing people, everybody starts asking nonsensical questions like, read so and so before talking.
As for hindus being civilized, that is something we should be proud of. And I think we should give more respect to people, than being afraid that they will convert whenever they hear somebody telling them to convert. And if they want to, what the hell right does anybody have to stop them? And what right does anybody have to ask people to stop talking? Everybody here talks what they believe in and everybody else does. People do whatever they think is most beneficial to them after hearing out anybody. What's wrong with that?
RE:My questions to all the spine less commies commenting here.
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 08, 2007 07:39 PM Permalink
I am not the owner of temples, mullahs or padres. And I am not government. I don't make those decisions because I don't have the right to. I don't see how you think you have the right to decide who will be allowed into temples.
RE:My questions to all the spine less commies commenting here.
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 08, 2007 08:56 AM Permalink
I don't think personal criticism is the answer to the issues raised.
RE:My questions to all the spine less commies commenting here.
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 08:47 AM Permalink
All fanatics share one more thing in common, fear and insecurity! True for the mulla, the padre and the tanthri!
Questions for all the tanthris, padres, imams and their blind followers: Where is the spirituality, where is the love, where is the tolerance, where is the empathy, where is the justice, where is the truth? Are these values subordinate to your burning desire for controlling people like sheep for your own narrow interests that you claim are same as God's interests? Is the all-powerful mighty God so weak that he needs little people like you to defend him or are you calling Him weak? Are you trying to control people on God's behalf because you suspect that the God cannot do so Himself?
RE:Questions for all the tanthris, padres and imams
by Sarath Chandra on Jun 07, 2007 11:19 PM Permalink
Kumar, I don't think many would answer you. But please keep asking these questions. We need more people like you on these forums where the dominant voices are those of abuse and hatred. Thank you for talking.
RE:Questions for all the tanthris, padres and imams
by Kumar on Jun 08, 2007 08:49 AM Permalink
Sarath Chandra thank you sir for your kind words, though I must admit once in a while I write abusive messages too, but then I feel sorry!
RE:Questions for all the tanthris, padres and imams
by Vas on Jun 08, 2007 04:33 PM Permalink
Yeah, you evangelical creep. You wouldn't know God if it hit you in the face. You're too busy helping yourself to India's wealth by playing caste politics, and pretending to be the good citizen. You are a baptist convert, so shut the 'f" up.
Point is One MUST CHANGE WITH TIMES. For eg: I dont like the dress code in many Kerala temples that I must be barechested. In all the pushing and pulling that goes on in Guruvayoor for instance, it is not a healthy practise to mingle sweat with all and sundry around you. Point is change must be applied with reason and thought. Not with rabid fanaticism and blind faith. God gave you intellect so APPLY IT.
Those who are educated enough to come read this in rediff, make religion your personal issue - appeal to your innerselves for the right answers - you will be heared - you will be answered. Let no organised religion corrupt you by swaying you into supporting their power games.
RE:Shame on you! - Addendum 2
by sreenivasulu pitla on Jun 07, 2007 08:57 PM Permalink
well said Subramshu, I fully support your views. All these organized religions are there to stop people using their conscience in all walks of life. All that is the religions brought to mankind is division among people not the unity. People better start using their intellect not the religious books.
Cotd ... This is an addendum based on the second part of the interview published here. The Tantri claims that he is the father of the deity here on earth. What bosh! Why does the all-powerful need a father here on earth or anywhere in heavens! How can a mere puny man claim to be the father of the deity? This fatherhood has been self proclaimed and is not supported by any religious canons other than a blind belief that is carried down centuries. People and communities which benefited from this faith have added to its perpetration by repeatedly proclaiming it as Shri Raman does here. This is the power game of religion and those who derive benefits from it.
Notice how in the second part of the interview Shri Raman has subtly changed from his "Laid down by Adi Sankara" to laid down by the law of the land principle. He must have realised that his claim for "Laid down by Adi Sankara" does not hold any water and has now decided to lay the blame squarely at the ministers footstep itself.
One is not asking him to change any major traditions, but merely asking him to apply his intellect in recognising and respecting a fellow human being. Or does it require a law to make him do that?
I support Shri Ravi in this crusade, for once he will find the communists - who were spineless on some of these issues in the days of EMS - will support him and he should take up this issue forward and stop all governmental support to this temple and its institutions of priesthood until it opens its doors to all devotees.
Thirdly, I feel the the priest has subtly admitted that he is weighed down by his own guilt and perhaps is rethinking all this himself. It is quite clear that he is not sure of the correctness of this philosophy in this day and age. Why else would he bring his late father and point to his father's actions as an excuse for his own? Why else would he bring his son and his brother into the whole argument? If he were sure in his beliefs and firm in his stand, he need to clutch on these straws. He must be brave enough to face the world and say that yes, I did it and I think it is right. INSTEAD - see what he said - I DONT MAKE THE LAWS ... This is a clever ploy to take the cover an impregnable source, all organised religions do this to perpetuate their power and hold on the masses just appeal to a source - which has been corrupted by centuries - but one that is no longer open to questions. I dont spare anyone here, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Islamic and Jewish power centres all indulge in the same religious power games. Those who are educated enough to come read this in rediff, make religion your personal issue - appeal to your innerselves for the right answe
RE:Shame on you! - Part 3
by Vijayalakshmi G. on Jun 08, 2007 12:04 AM Permalink
This Bhattacharya is ignorant,so he seems to be ignorant of the fact that a secular Govt has no business to meddle in the religious affairs of any community.But secularism in India is so warped that only Hindu temples are in the clutches of the Govt,which instead of being a Trustee,loots the temples and misuses the temple funds and properties,mostly for un-Hindu purposes.The Govt dare not interfere in the religious affairs of other communities.They are free to use their funds any way they want.The temple funds were generated by the devout,temple-going Hindus.Atheists have no moral right to control them.The tantri of Guruvayur is held in respect by Hindu devotees.He is not paid any salary by the Devaswom.It is a duty he performs in accordance with tradition.Ravi krishna could have obtained a certificate from Arya Samaj before entering the temple to create the controversy,because he is aware of the tradition!Does anyone have the guts to ask Christians and Muslims to change their traditions and customs?Why take Hindus for granted?
RE:Shame on you! - Part 3
by Utpal Dutta on Jun 08, 2007 03:32 AM Permalink
Vijayalakshmi is right ! Bovernemt has no right in controilling or tampering the codes of the faith , particularly 'hindu faith'! It is against the rights by constitutional provision! We saw such illegal tampering of provisions in 'Hindu Marriage Act, 1955', which was effected by J L Nehru by showing power of parliamentarians , totally againsyt the provisions of the constitution.It is still in vouge unchallenged! The parliament is not corrcet in assumibg that they, by number power, has the right to implement any law! The basic rights of the citizens are guranteedly protected by the constitution! So this present thought should be nipped in the bud bymassive protests! But the politicians are not that democratic to listen to a mild protest , even though a sizeable number protesrs.They wait for a violent happening and then they are forced! It is a very BAD ASPECT IN INDIAN DEMOCRACY! That shows that the Indian politicians are CROOKED!
