Whilst the 'punyaham' ensures hygiene and sacrosanctity of the Guruvayur temple and no issues ought to be raised. Requiring it done due to the bloodline of a devotee does raise eyebrows, specially if we find reservations done on the same lines as flawed. Hinduism has a rich tradition of accepting reforms when well respected, spiritually enlightened entities have attempted to correct social practices in keeping with times. Adi Sankara's 32 yrs of life was spent creating Adaita Vedantas post deep study, travel and debates with Buddhist, Jain and other schools of interpretations of the Hindu holy scriptures. He did have opposition, but his knowledge won them over. Swami Vivekananda, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Mahatma Gandhi etc too have studied Vedas, Upanishads, Purans, Bhagwad Gita and worked up a status to advise acceptable reforms. Its ironical that knowledge moves ahead uncontrolled, whereas religious rituals wait for a charismatic personality to appear and 'bell the cat'. Faithfuls have time and again been frustrated by Vatican, Mecca, various Synagogues, Fire temples, etc and at best ignored it, until the arrival of someone enlightened enough, who conforms to the system, goes right thru it and earns an exalted position to analyse and introduce the corrections, bracing up at the same time to face the opposition humans exhibit in accepting change. One must though appreciate the humility of the tantri, Shri C.R.Namboodiripad in declaring his limitations on the issue.
RE:Is time ripe enough?
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 01:22 AM Permalink
Hear ye cometh another pseudo-secular jack a&&.
We are talking about following Vedic principles here. You cannot argue rationality and reform in Vedic principles. Vedas are supreme and unquotionable. If you dont believe in the supremacy of Vedic literatures then you by default become an athiest or non-believer.
There are several Vedantha soceities and reform socities where one can practice their faith. Why target an ancient temple? Idiots like you dont think with your brains.
All I see here is a congress politician making a big fuzz over nothing for anti-Brahmins hatred and vote bank politics.
RE:Is time ripe enough?
by Mak C on Jun 06, 2007 01:56 AM Permalink
Dear inadvertently Human???? you are welcome to have your radicalised interpretation of Vedic principles. When Maharaja of Travancore/Cochin was around to kick butt, entry of lower castes was acceptable into this very 'ancient temple', Vedas irrespective. Who has given you the authority to decide who an athiest is? If you are searching for an idiot just look into the mirror you'll find a Taalibanised version.
RE:Is time ripe enough?
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 02:13 AM Permalink
This isnt about a lower-caste person. This is about a non-Hindu, non-believer. The dude who entered Temple premises was a Xian and hence the rest.
RE:Is time ripe enough?
by Mak C on Jun 06, 2007 03:27 AM Permalink
Welcome back to intelligent debate...and sorry for retorting back in the language you chose. The extreme variety of ostracisation of the lower castes have been recognised by reformists within Hinduism and that is the fascinating aspect of Hinduism. Mahatma Gandhi coined the word 'Harijan'. Legend has it that Lord Shiva approached his holiness, Adi Sankara in the form of an untouchable with 4 dogs to test him, which he recognised and prostrated himself in devotion. Lord Shiva could take the form of an untouchable but some of His followers deny an untouchable simple dignity even when he has moved up the social order and does not indulge in the so called 'dirty work' for a living. This mindset is as unreasonable as a Caucasian white redneck looking down upon a Brahmin Rocket Scientist and classifying him a 'Brownie', below his dignity to mix with, despite the great disparity in intelligence. If you are highlighting religion then knowledge has moved on to classify bloodlines neither patriarchal nor matriarchal, if you understand anything about genes. Women just play along with the male dominance in society and accept denial of equality in all religions. The lady in question will shut up merely for this reason, without arguing that she relinquished christianity the day she found a hindu alliance suitable. If you understand 'genography' then no culture can gloat about genetic purity, no matter how carefully bloodlines were protected in recent history. Humans are older than Aryans.
RE:To 'Serious'
by Serious on Jun 06, 2007 01:29 AM Permalink
Hi Inadvertently Human and Bhaskar Chattypatty, for your information, I am neither SC nor OBC/ST. I am not gay as well, as you two appears to be. Ok, I do not have any objection to whatever you two do, but talking about true religion on one hand, looking for other's a-nus at the same time is not a fair practice.
RE:To 'Serious'
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 01:34 AM Permalink
You seem to be tied up on a**s. Whatup serious? Gotta fetish for that?
If u r not sc/st/obc then u r perhaps some Xian/Muslim! Let me guess...you are from Tamil Nadu or from southern city, periyar's follower, DK supporter, dreamt all night of getting a brahmins wife but never could...
You guys are so predictable and pathetic, you know that?
There is no ambiguity about who is a hindu and who is a non-hindu ! But,knowing all,Mr Ravi,is trying to rake up a dispute ! The motive behind this is not unknown! These days many hindus,in high positions,are violating the customs,trying to take shelter under'secularism'and'untouchability act'!While, when those concepts/acts were framed, the makers /framers knew what they meant,and the concept/act were not to undermine the'hindu customs'but to protect people from oppressions! But by and by, the opportunists have pushed more more into questioning 'hindu customs', challenging those,themselves violating at random! Is an individual greater? or the community is greater? The basics have been lost in just two generations! Shame to those who want to interfere the'hindu customs' in the name of equality or individuals' sentiments! In a state, there is no graeat importance to an individual, though he also will not be ignored, but he cant ride on anything! When they talk of equality in everything of'hindus' do they or can they follow it in their behaviours? or their dealings?Is any code maintained? Does Sri Ravi allow anyone into his office for anything? Does he treat his toilet equal to his kitchen?and so on.. Sentiments are very flimsy when expressed in a reasoneless manner! H e must have hit the sentiments when he came out of his famiuly tradition to marry Maria!H e had definitely hit to ardent believers in 'hindu customs'!Did he care? Therefore the only answer remains as a MOTIVE
Mr. Tantri's analogy that purification undertaken for the visit of a "non-hindu" is no different to purification after a childs vomit or accidental bleeding is indeeed laughable and reeks of bigotry.
Why? Purification after a childs vomit or after an accidental bleeding is to ensure Hygiene, so it does'nt pass on any bacterial infection to other devotees. What harm is brought to other devotees due to a visit by a "non-hindu", that a purification needs to be undertaken?
His arguments does not stand a reasonable scrutiny. Simply saying it's the rules does not cut ice in the current times. Rules are there, but needs wisdom to applyu appropriately. If the head lacks wisdom, then it's time for replacement. Otherwise, a Sheep can ruin a institution simple in the name of following rules.
Hinduism needs Inclusion not exclusion for survival. Inclusion is the essence and fragrance of Hinduism. Keep it alive.
RE:Mr.Tantri's Laughable Analogy...
by Radhakrishnan V on Jun 06, 2007 12:59 AM Permalink
please read it carefully. Tantri said that the purification is not meant to humiliate anybody. it is just a process
further, purification is only a symbolic process. do you think it helps get rid of the bacteria?
RE:RE:Mr.Tantri's Laughable Analogy...
by Radhakrishnan V on Jun 06, 2007 01:03 AM Permalink
please read it carefully. Tantri said that the purification is not meant to humiliate anybody. it is just a procedure. the analogy is "as purification is not meant to humiliate the kid, this purification is also not meant to humiliate Ravi"
further, purification is only a symbolic procedure. do you think it helps get rid of the bacteria?
RE:RE:Mr.Tantri's Laughable Analogy...
by Sankaranarayanan Doraiswamy on Jun 06, 2007 02:20 AM Permalink
Is there any rule that Hindus alone must give way for others. Minister went to Guy. temple because he admired it. He might have the chorunu in other temples also. Can we question any judge. Thantri is supreme and so his ruling. This is not a place for political parties. In India itself we follow different rules and it may not be possible to streamline that. If we are not iinvited properly in ahouse let us not visit that house leave it just like that. No one in this world can say that he is only right. k
Hi, I am an ardent Guruvayoorapan devotee and visit the temple as often as I can. I don't agree with the views of the tantri that he is basically following the rules set by Adi Sankara. If rules exists which discriminate a person because of his religion, it should be abolished. I would suggest that devasom board which governs the temple should change the rules. The concept of a someone becoming a head tantri just because he was born in a particular family should also be abolished. We as a society have inherited the traditions from past when untouchability was practiced in open . Since then we have come a long way and the rules governing the temple should also be changed.
As a matter of fact, the tantries themselves are no longer morally or ethically clean as they were generations ago. They have also moved with the times and engage in all immoral activities which are against the rules of performing priestly duties. Recently the head tantri of Sabrimala temple was caught in a prostitute house in Ernakulam and was blackmailed to part with huge amounts of cash. The said tantri was ready to part with lakhs of money demanded by the blackmailers and the prostitute until he was persuaded by someone in his family not to do it and file a police complaint. The tantri was arrested and as usual he must have bribed the officials to get out of it. The point is you can imagine what sanity his children or his future generations have to perform puja in Sabrimala temple.
RE:Tantri is Wrong
by Subramaniam Dharmarajan on Jun 06, 2007 01:14 AM Permalink
Excuse me sir... I guess you were wrong and not the tantri. You have no right to say that Non hindus can enter Hindu temples. Hindu temples are places of worship and not tourist places. This is not practised properly in other parts of India. In kerala, they practise it properly. Whats wrong in that? If some non hindus believe in Hindu gods, then let them get converted to Hinduism and enter the temple. And moreover Guruvayoorappan temple is not public property for everyone to decide on who should be the next tantri. Nobody asked your opinion on this. Its run my devaswom and they have the right to decide. You as a devotee should be happy that you are allowed to see and pray Lord Guruvayoorappan. Then also dont use this forum to pass on rubbish messages about other tantris. Talking or discussing out of the topic shows the true picture of yourself. Here the topic is about what the tantri did and if it was correct. The tantri did what he is supposed to do. So he was right.
RE:Tantri is Wrong
by Sanjay Bhashyam on Jun 06, 2007 02:13 AM Permalink
I don't need intro fm you on Kerala temple practices. I am Keralite Hindu and an ardent devotee. The difference is that you are a hypocrite and I am not. You talk about Devaswom board being allowed to manage temples, without realizing that devaswom board members are political appointees who are appointed by politicans like Vayalar Ravi. Old age kerala temple practices like not wearing shirt, no trousers allowed inside temple are not relevant today. Every practice need to change with the times. Take the example of Tirupathi temple, they have changed with the times and have implemented technology which helps devotees have a peaceful darshan. Monopolistic practice of tantri coming from a household need to be abolished, there should be a defined criteria where all Hindus should be allowed to compete. I am a Brahmin, so don't get me wrong. Otherwise you would have a situation like the tantri from Sabrimala. Any situtation where you take things for granted without any accountability leads to abuse and that is what happened with the Sabrimala's tantri.
So think logically about it. Don't join the gang of hypocrites in this thread who don't have any concern about preserving Hindu legacy other than talking about how other religion are sabotaging Hinduism. Allowing practices like punyaham is playing into hands of people who are bent on destroying Hinduism.
RE:RE:Tantri is Wrong
by Seven Maniacs on Jun 06, 2007 09:51 AM Permalink
Hi. I have two basic disagreements. One is the premise that with times we need to change practises. Now this is a generalization for which you are quoting tirupathi and its technological innovations. Now here is an administrative practise that has been introduced for ocnvenience and the religious practise is what is under scanner in the Gur. example. The second is a very dangerous premise.. that of lack of faith in the tantri. Now you are assuming that just because he could be a political appointment he is certainly 'not good enough'. Atleast that's what i understood from your arguments. I think we need to trust the judgements of people somewhere. Reforms are indeed the nee of the hour... but not at the cost of religion. Who decides - thats always been the problem. Let the scriptures decide whenever there is such conflict. Subject matter experts need to debate this not in public ofcourse.
RE:Tantri is Wrong
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 02:20 AM Permalink
Abe aa...You dont quit do u? You think you are cute by asking crappy questions?
We dont need anyone new to be a Hindu. Hinduism is the oldest, eternal and transcendental. Only ur mohammed wants recruitment.
RE:Tantri is Wrong
by Radhakrishnan V on Jun 06, 2007 12:32 AM Permalink
on, just because tantri did what he was supposed to, do not generalise and brand all tantris as immoral. Even when you had raised the Sabarimala Tantri issue, do you know for sure what happened?
This is why India is pseudo secularist. IF a non Hindu is not allowed inside a temple, everyone starts bashing Hinduism.
Just because Hinduism does not believe in spreading Hinduism, it has become a sitting duck. Try raise your voice against any other religion's practise and immediately you will be called a "fascist" or zionist" or what not
Come on, if the chief priest has done his duty what is wrong? If Temple authorities and/or court thinks that non Hindus can be allowed, that is also welcome too.
As long as the rule stands that non Hindus cannot enter temple, there is nothing wrong in what Tantri did
RE:Tantri is Wrong
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 12:37 AM Permalink
No one besides Brahmins and other upper caste seem to care about Hinduism anymore. Thats why all the politicians and oppurtunits are form middle and lower castes and they just want to pour sand over their own head.
Religious beliefs are different from political beliefs. India is a pseudo secularist country right from the word go. In its independent history, there was never a time when all its citizens had been treated equal. When there cannot be uniform civil code, how can there be equality ? Why does Vaylar Ravi talk only about Hinduism if only to impress Sonia Madam
RE:RE:Rediff's bias is showing...
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 12:23 AM Permalink
We cannot open Temples to everyone. Shower, be clean, dont consume alchohol/meat, get out of ghetto and then we will talk opening for everyone. If u want, build you own temple and hire whatever priest you want.
This is an ancient temple build and guarded by Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Either play by their rules or park you a&& out of here.
RE:Rediff's bias is showing...
by Serious on Jun 06, 2007 12:36 AM Permalink
i just spotted your father outside the church waiting for those you mentioned.
RE:Rediff's bias is showing...
by Inadvertently Human on Jun 06, 2007 12:41 AM Permalink
And she is getting a B*J from ur mom and sister. Your wife wants her turn too it seems.
RE:RE:Rediff's bias is showing...
by Serious on Jun 06, 2007 12:41 AM Permalink
Inadvertently Human, grow up baby, i am not against hinduism. i am against your attitude of supporting caste-system, understood?
I think all of us should thank Mr Paniker for bringing out such a candid interview of the Tantri into print. There is no doubt about Mr Vayalar Ravi's religion. HE IS A HINDU ONLY. There is no doubt about the religious faith of the daughter in law of Mr Ravi. She is a Hindu and hence her son will be a HINDU but, what is doubtful is the religious faith of Ravi Krishna, the son of Vayalar Ravi. You can be a Hindu by birth only and cannot be a converted Hindu. Hence, if Vayalar Ravi raises a bogey that he has been defamed and insulted by the Tantri, when the Punyaham was conducted - it is sheer playing to the gallery by Vayalar Ravi. He should have foreseen such problems when he decided to marry Ms Mercy in his younger days but he did not- since it enhances his political image and gave him additional political points to further his political career. The Tantri did not bar his son from entering the temple ( As his son cannot be a Hindu- being born to a Christian mother) since he was not aware of the son's entry into the temple. He would have been duty bound to forbid if only he knew before hand, about Ravi Krishna's entry. In his own words, he came to know about Ravi Krishna's entry only from the Newspaper. So he took CORRECTIVE action which was CONDUCTING A PUNYAHAM. Where did the Tantri do any thing Wrong...?????
RE:Guruvayur Temple
by Serious on Jun 06, 2007 12:40 AM Permalink
Inadvertently Human, grow up baby, i am not against hinduism. i am against your attitude of supporting caste-system, understood?
RE:RE:Guruvayur Temple
by on Jun 06, 2007 06:01 AM Permalink
you guys are twisting the tings around.. there is no cast and creed here... what tantri has done is as perscribed in vedas for conduct of temple.. Minister has made a big fuss of this to gain popularity.. he is a corrupt politician... if he doesn't like what tantri recomended.. he should stop visiting the temple... another option.. he go to temple.. but the temple will do what it takes to purify.
What a surprise, the Tanthri sees nothing wrong in his actions!
I have never met a bigot who accepts that he a bigot. The moment a person accepts that they are filled with hate, bigotry and discrimination, the healing process begins and the sick patient has some hope for a complete recovery from the disease of hate, bigotry and discrimination which by the way is destroying India or whatever is left of it.
RE:And now, if Left Front or COngress has galls, let them change rule set by Adi Sankara.
by rao cln on Jun 05, 2007 11:19 PM Permalink
This message is for about Goan elections and not about Guruvayor temple episodel. wrongly edited
RE:RE:And now, if Left Front or COngress has galls, let them change rule set by Adi Sankara.
by andre joseph on Jun 06, 2007 02:08 AM Permalink
Foolishness at it's height. When a human being comes into this earth, he is just another of the billions of creatures the Allmighty created and the only difference is that he endowed us with the power to think, which in turn made us think up religion, caste, creed and what not. Caste, Creed and religion are man made and not the "paripoornan's" creation. What authority has one human being to say another should not enter the house of our creator? It's only when one misuses the power to think that we come up with such irrational rules. In what way is Raman Namboodripad different from Vayalar Ravi? If Valayar Ravi's son was prevented from entering the temple because he was an evil human being who wishes to continue with his evil ways, this is a rational thing to do. Even if he were a criminal and wished to seek forgivness from the Lord, he has every right to enter the temple. After all, temples, churches and mosques are conduits through which human beings reach out to their creator and one human being imposing conditions on another is the most foolish thing that can ever happen in this world. I hope good sense will prevail and people irrespective of religion, caste or creed will soon be allowed to worship in any temple, church or mosque. We have a 5000 year heritage of tolerance and understanding and it's time we put paid to such rules which are inhuman and demean the human race to say the least.
RE:RE:And now, if Left Front or COngress has galls, let them change rule set by Adi Sankara.
by Seven Maniacs on Jun 06, 2007 10:01 AM Permalink
Thanks for your sermon sir! Although i fundamentally cannot disagree with whatever you said, i can't find a rhyme or reason as to the context of it all! Vayalar ravi's son was not prevented from entering the temple, nor was he called/considered 'evil' human being. So your entire premise stands nullified! Thanks for the enlightening words nevertheless
