RE:Respond
by rajesh bhaskar on Jun 06, 2007 06:28 AM Permalink
goto iraq and palestine there are many women without men now or you can go to somalia also if there is no descrimination color. you may get free s-e-x under purdha
I would like to know what would happen if a hindu went to vatican, and try to preach bhagvad gita ?? Do you know what happened to all pagans in Europe ??
RE:bhagvad gita
by Lucky B on Jun 06, 2007 04:57 AM Permalink
Kumar, Read the reasons why temple performed rituals. Whoever not convinced and do not follow the rules need to go to that temple.
I feel humiliated when Indians speak and use English where it is not necessary. But I have to live with it. Because I know Angreji slavery is in our blood.
RE:RE:bhagvad gita
by Pavan on Jun 06, 2007 05:19 AM Permalink
Kumar, Dont you think the family should have enquired before entering the temple premises if it was ok ? Will the pope appoint a hindu as his chief bishop for spreading the word of bhagvad gita ? or should he be converted ?? Why does the pope always have to a christian, why not a hindu or muslim ? Some can have rules and some cannot right ?
RE:bhagvad gita
by Kumar on Jun 06, 2007 05:37 AM Permalink
Pavan they didn't visit the temple to become the tantri (instead of the original tantri) or to become the pope. They went to seek Lord Krishna's blessings and protection for the infant. It's sad to see someone do blatant descrimination and people trying to spin and justify an evil act. Why? Just because you belong to a certain caste! It's shameful.
RE:RE:bhagvad gita
by Bill on Jun 06, 2007 06:34 AM Permalink
Exactly, there is a clear specific difference between being a visitor to a place and assuming a position of authority in that place. Pavan's argument is illogical and off the mark.
RE:bhagvad gita
by Seven Maniacs on Jun 06, 2007 09:17 AM Permalink
Mr Kumar, there was no discrimination against the family on entry/darshan. And, there wasn't any caste angle... so don't start off from where the wily minister left it.
RE:bhagvad gita
by rajesh bhaskar on Jun 06, 2007 06:10 AM Permalink
one should allow every hindu and all converted back to hindus shold be given the status of brahmana officially as they are based on knowledge not on birth. birth caste system is against hinduism and vedas and every hindu should be against this
RE:bhagvad gita
by Bill on Jun 06, 2007 06:31 AM Permalink
That was 500 years ago, you had slavery in Europe and Sati & Jauhar in India then. Almost all religions have changed extremist positions with time, some sooner than others. As of now, no human is banned from entering any place in the Vatican and it hosted leaders like Dalai Lama, Vivekananda, Judaic Rabbis etc.
It's indeed unfortunate that such a highly literate community (that's compared with the developed economies) allows age old irrationalities at places such as Guruvayur and Sabarimala. We need immediate reforms. It's a networked world and hinduism has always only welcomed people of all communities, it's known for its tolerance. Any person who has belief should be permitted to pray at Guruvayur and Sabarimala. Let's not complicate the issue with stupid logic in this 21st century! To begin with, let Guruvayur apologise to Yesudas and open a new era of equality! Regds - venusaleena@rediffmail.com
RE:Guruvayur and Sabarimala need immediate reforms
by rajesh bhaskar on Jun 06, 2007 06:14 AM Permalink
what a shame if you are hindu to say to appologise to jesudas. why can't he convert himself as hindu and then go to temple. that is what philip m prasad the old nexalite christin did to goto temple. why can't you bigger attrocities against hindus..tommorrow you will say purdha should be allowed in temple as it is not against hinduism and a terrorist can come easily place a bomb there
RE:Guruvayur and Sabarimala need immediate reforms
by on Jun 06, 2007 05:53 AM Permalink
you seems to be a dumb!
Get this clear... the Issue you are talking about is different from what has been reported on article. Tantri himself said that there are process and procedures that temple has to follow as prescribed in vedas.. thats all what they did in this case as well... they do they do not stop any one from praying in temple... as you seems to think..
get this also.. Minister involved is one of the most corrupt dirty politician in Kerala.
If the thives and criminals form a society and claim that they be allowed to steal and commit crime because their organisation manual says so, will we allow it? No. Who cares what the rule books says. Discriminating against fellow Indians based on caste and religion, humiliating them based on their birth is evil, plan and simple. If criminals get together and write a book that says it's their right to commit crime and do harm to the society, we cannot allow it. The Tantri's ranting are similiar to this.
RE:RE:RE:A thief is a thief and a criminal is a criminal!
by Seven Maniacs on Jun 06, 2007 09:20 AM Permalink
psst. let me rephrase your statements! If thieves and criminals have a code of conduct within their societies, others wanting to live with them might have to accept the code as a law. So your argument is slightly fallacious here. Foreigners wanting to live in india cannot talk about universal law and not follow the indian constitution! If you think criminals wrote the law for temples, so be it.
RE:A thief is a thief and a criminal is a criminal!
by Kumar on Jun 06, 2007 05:42 AM Permalink
Why should I care what they do in vatican or what they wear? I don't think I am ever going to even visit vatican. The issue here is blantant descrimination in India and it's justification by vested interests.
RE:RE:A thief is a thief and a criminal is a criminal!
by rajesh bhaskar on Jun 06, 2007 06:21 AM Permalink
kumar baltant discrimination atleast know the words meaning. you can't see thousands of temples demolished in afghan to malappuram by moguls. vayalar ravi it is mistake from tantri's part. but we can't allow any tom and dick hanging around in temples. we alloed many to invade our country due to split among us. so your changed DNA make you say this. this issue is just between vayalar and tantri. vayalar can take legal action against this. we don't need sudhahkaran and azhikode spit something in media. tell them to spit against shariath law or abhaya case of muringuru rade.. ems did once against this he was left and right slapped muslims. so you can bark as you are born as a hindu who doesn't know what hinduism realy is
If rules are evil and discrimanatory they need to be changed. The Tantri is making an absurd comparision between someone vomitting (personal hygene) and a person of another faith visiting a temple. He has no shame or remorse about humiliting a women and a mother. The BJP wallas shout the loudest to reform Islam and make it more tolerant and modern, why their silence when it's Hinduism turn to reform and become more tolerant? Ban the caste system and punish all those who propogate it otherwise India as a nation is finished. The tantri and his ilks are a greater danger to India than the terrorists and abhramic relgions.
RE:To hide his crime the Tantri is providing a spin to the entire issue
by rajesh bhaskar on Jun 06, 2007 06:26 AM Permalink
this is not caste system. caste system is not part of hindusim but part of hindus. other religious people doesn't need to come to temple as they can't pray to krishna and they can't chant aum. similarly when we go to churches we can't pray jesus. we just respect them. if allow non-hindus in temple it will be like we allowed mugals with our in fights from afghan to kerala. see the state now. so please read history rather blaming caste or rituals. but vayalar if he is not christian beliver what tantri did is wrong any sense. Punyahm is not needed for krishna but we should not allow other religious people coming to temple otherwise tommorrow you will repent. if you sit in aplace where you are supposed then good otherwise dog sits there . that is what is happened to so called global hindus
RE:To hide his crime the Tantri is providing a spin to the entire issue
by Seven Maniacs on Jun 06, 2007 09:26 AM Permalink
rhetorical statements again mr kumar. Nobody was humuliated my friend. If you clean up your house after a friend or even a relative came and stayed with you for a while, you would justify it as natural. A purification as described the the priest is conducted frequently to make sure the place is kept in order. If you don't like the ritual, don't goto that place. Although the arguments on reforming religion are most welcome. Don't mix issues to force your points please. You ridicule the BJP wallas as non-representative of Hindus im sure, so why talk about them here :)
These customs arise of social situations prevailing during which the custom is implimented.
During Indias history it was mercilessly invaded,looted and these customs started to arise during these phase of invasions
Eg:The temples were not merely places of worship but also hiding and protection
when these invaders muslims, portugese,english invaded our lands it was just the way to have some secracy of your beliefs that these thing started and slowly became customs
In case of muslims:these people were often involved in wars so males were less and one had to marry 4 women to solve the problem,during wars the most vulnerable are women at the hands of invaders and security for them was less so burkha,contrary sati became custom for Hindus.
Every religion has its customs. Unfortunatly they become irrilavent after some time.
As one on discussion panel mentions it takes one great personality to bring about this change Eg: sankarachary, vivekananda.
we have to waite for such a chage.
I notice that many of the peolple on discussion board are using abusive language hurting the modesty.
I request the rediffmail to immediatly delete those messages.
RE:traditon
by Lucky B on Jun 06, 2007 04:46 AM Permalink
Well said. Few decades ago slavery was a normal thing in USA. Woman didn't have voteting rights. But now they have.
Many temple priests are not as nice people as one would assume guardians of religions to be. All they are interested in is carrying out their brahminical rituals so that they do not accumulate any bad karma. One will not find many of these genuinely interested in helping people, or doing some good for them. They are just interested in making people follow religious rituals rigorously. They can mouth as many shlokas as you ask them to, they supposedly love god, but they lack love for their fellow people. No religion talks of discriminating among people, atleast not among those who have faith in it, no matter what their background be. It is because of such people like that we have such a strongly caste based society even today. Many of the priests are extremely orthodox in their attitudes, and if it was up to these people, we still would have been a primitive god fearing society. I will mention a small incident that took place when I was 12. I wanted to put some money in the temple. First, I put it in front of a deity in an open plate. Then I thought it would be a better idea to put in the donation box, since it is closed, and hence safer. And I slipped the money in the box. Seeing that, the priest yelled at me like hell. According to him, it was not right to take money back from that plate. I told him why I did so, but that didn't matter to him.
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by ramesis on Jun 06, 2007 04:00 AM Permalink
Sudhanshu, this is not about nice and bad priests. And the customs & traditions at this temple (Guruvayur) is slightly different from elsewhere. For generations my likes have prayed here, and though we agree some of the customs may be questionable, I dont think many can agree that is a case of a priest rigourously enforcing rituals. And sorry to hear abt ur own experience, but u can't generalize right? Peace.
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by sudhanshu shekhar singh on Jun 06, 2007 04:09 AM Permalink
Obviously I cant generalize - my sample space is too small. but the interview itself shows that this "is a case of a priest rigorously enforcing rituals". Read the title of the report - 'I don't make the rules at Guruvayur'. What kind of impression does it give?
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by ramesis on Jun 06, 2007 04:15 AM Permalink
it gives the impression, that he did not create the rules, he is merely following temple customs as his predecessors used to! And I am saying, we in modern Indianeed to debate whether some of the archaic customs (not alone in temples!) need to change! And again, this isssue is not to be mixed with what the minister feels.
Hey I like the observation of srikrishna vempaty just before ur write up!
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by Sankaranarayanan Doraiswamy on Jun 06, 2007 04:19 AM Permalink
It is bad to take back the money paid, from the plate. If you dont like slokas you can very wellgo to other place in the temple. Enjoy everything as a fun and not criticise others when you are not surte of yourselves about the correct method to follow.
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by sudhanshu shekhar singh on Jun 06, 2007 04:33 AM Permalink
I did not say that I do not like shlokas!! I meant that sometimes, even tho people know all kinds of shlokas, somewhere in their allegiance to their gods and religion, they lose their basic humanity and start discriminating among people on irrational basis (like following other religion or sects). And y is it bad to take the money back, i was not taking it back at home..It was an open temple, and i had seen (very few) people picking money from plates and going away. I was just putting the money in a safer place.
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by sudhanshu shekhar singh on Jun 06, 2007 05:10 AM Permalink
I did not feel offended. I was surprised!! I could not understand what difference did it make to put the money in the box from the plate. In fact, it was safer in the box!! And well, about keeping my cool. Ya, I do lose my cool in religious matters. I, kind of, dislike the ritualistic nature of modern day religion. I am not against spirituality though.
I am practicing to keep my cool..its much better than it was 2yrs ago.. hope to improve more in future
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by ajoy tiwari on Jun 06, 2007 05:26 AM Permalink
Mr Sudhansu,
Do not equate issues, first of all one should not comment on any thing unless one knows throughly about the subject matter. Your Knowledge abd diatribe against Brahmins and brahmanical orderr et al , smucks of persoanl prejudice. do not equate instances. Now coming to the issue of purification, I would not comment simply because I am not aware of all practises of temple. Adi shankara wqas great saint, and philosopher, what ever he has ordained must have some meaning. So be careful before you start spiting venom againt any community or group.
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by sudhanshu shekhar singh on Jun 06, 2007 05:38 AM Permalink
I do not intend to slip any venom - i am absolutely non poisonous. Adishankara was a grt saint indeed.. but its been years since he was on the earth. A lot of things have changed, and so should the rules. Thats all I am saying. I am not gainst brahmins or any other caste. look at your own statement - "Adi shankara wqas great saint, and philosopher, what ever he has ordained must have some meaning". this kind of blind faith leads to extremism. What happened at that temple is an example of that extremism.
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by Seven Maniacs on Jun 06, 2007 09:34 AM Permalink
i beg to disagree here. Why do u think it is extremism? It is purely discipline. When i am not a subject matter expert i won't start questioning. Gain the expertise and then debate for sure. Ofcourse i might be pre-supposing that you aren't an expert in this case.. so pardon my preemption! But i would insist you take it in the spirit of the argument
RE:Temple priests - mellowed down version
by srikrishna vempaty on Jun 06, 2007 04:18 AM Permalink
Dear Mr Sudhanshu, As you have mentioned in your letter.Every person in the religion have the responsibility to safe gaurd the religion I am not going to say what you have said is wrong.But the way we interprit it.The caste system in Hindu religion was not started at once It slowly arose taking a period of about 5000 years are more.It was basically on occupations these thing started as.As you see in any society the very rich usually exploit the others.The senior sections exploited the peasants and hard working sections. religion started later. with time People often shifed their professions irrespective of what they were Guptas were vysyas, kakatiyaas were formers Surdras.They were more flexible than what we are now. Caste system showed its vicious story only after invasions.It is just like shia, sunny fight now in iraq after american invasions.And India was invaded for around 1100 years.which reached the present situation of caste and religions. I am not at all supportive of caste and I request every hindu to fight against the system and put ant end to it.Many kings have tried to end it Eg:krishna devaraya,lingayats god who is a king. Unfortunatly the people (we) also have to make an innate attempt to abolish.which is not happening. coming to your experience.Brahmins in temples usually accept money kept in the plate as dakshina that is what they live on take home. the one you put in the box belongs to God and Temple. Not all people are pious ultimatly what ever he
Cant you differentiate between an abuse and a simple honest opinion. Just because my opinion doesnt match with yours doesnt mean you can report my message as abuse. My messages never have any foul content or any destructive or extremist view.
