If you believe that "Americans think democracy is like giving a lollipop" then you also have to understand why. Americans love their freedom of choice and their constitutional rights, and they can't understand why those elsewhere wouldn't feel the same if given the chance. If you like lollipops and haven't had one for many years, then you may welcome one as a gift and let your taste buds relish it's sweetness. However, if you've never had a lollipop then you may be hesitant to taste of it when offered. You may even let it fall to the ground and be trampled under foot.
RE:Simplistic on many levels
by on Jan 28, 2007 03:59 AM Permalink
Tracy Atkins,
To the extent that Americans (or anyone else) believe "Democracy is like giving a lollipop", they are *wrong*, irrespective of the rationalizations you suggest.
Emergence of democracy requires the presence of solid institutions like a functioning and stable law and order apparatus, an independent judiciary, a fair legal system and constitution, and a solid corps of civil servants.
It's not enough for Americans to imagine that they're offering someone a chance at the "democracy-lollipop". The chance offered is a farce, unless Americans also take sensible steps to cultivate the said institutions which the Bush Administration has not done.
Indeed, in such cases, a grandstanding "promise of democracy" could easily be a slogan to distract, while you pursue other goals (oil, geopolitical influence etc).
America having badly failed to create institutions needed to sustain democracy, it makes no sense for you to rationalize that the failure is not that of Americans, but that of the people who want to be "hesitant to taste" democracy.
It is simply dishonest to blame the victim for American failures.
RE:Simplistic on many levels
by GOKUL MUTHUSWAMY on Jan 26, 2007 02:23 AM Permalink
would u like a lollipop to be forced on you? wouldnt u like to have it on ur own accord, it may be sweet to u bcoz evrything else is in place for you to enjoy , but for ppl who dont have nehting a theres greater risk of democracy being misused.
RE:Simplistic on many levels
by Variag on Jan 28, 2007 01:07 PM Permalink
Tracy Atkins,
I just took a second look at your posting. I think that T.N. Seshan is quite aware of the thinking you described, which is why he made the "Americans think democracy is like lollipops" statement in the first place !
What you failed to add in your supposed explanation is why Americans ignore the other factors that Seshan mentioned (rule of law, role of minorities etc) as being important in establishing democracy.
I find it very significant (and frankly, amusing) that you ignored precisely the factors Seshan says Americans routinely ignore, and that inspite of having them clearly pointed out !
Is it a good idea to keep repeating your slogans, so utterly indifferent even to what people are saying under your very nose !?
RE:Simplistic on many levels
by Tracy Akins on Jan 26, 2007 02:38 AM Permalink
Yes, Gokul, that is why I say it is simplistic on many levels. The real world is much more complicated, but politicians and presidents don't always understand this.
RE:RE:Simplistic on many levels
by thepolice stewart on Jan 26, 2007 03:10 AM Permalink
Tracy,yes politicians and presidents have their own opinion ,nevertheless they should realize that their decision creates/affects the image of a 300 million people inside and outside their country.policy makers of united states should understand the fact that they are creating a dangerous world by poking the needle on both sides.the world doesnt want this rogue cop to interfere in every aspect.today its afghanistan,iraq....tomorro it will be n.korea,iran...ok understood afghanistan,but why iraq,because its the typical bollwood/hollywood flick,american policy makers are the villian they hire a henchman (saddam H) to finish their enemy (other developing/developed nations) and once the job (like obtaining nuke secrets from iran and passing it on to CIA)is finished by the henchman the hench man is inturn killed.this is what unites staes does,and by USA i dont mean the entire people i mean the policy makers.its time for american to refrain from the apocalyptic super cop image. i have been in united states (iam back to india now)for 7 years and its so pathetic to see 300 million good people brain washed by the media at one go having no idea of what's happening outside theirs.an american visiting outside his country should feel safe. yes,"might is right",but the policy makers shouldnt forget david and goliath. iam not against americans but against their cunning policy makers.....they are the #1 terrorists.
RE:RE:RE:Simplistic on many levels
by lipa dash on Jan 26, 2007 06:25 AM Permalink
hello
america acting as the super cop is understood but there's no point in the hollywood/bollywood theory. please look up saddam's history before deciding him as the henchman. he was the hunted and he met his fate (although in a barbaric way). if america doesn't play the super cop, some other nation will. thats the way it is..there is always a leader and contenders. terrorism can't be dealt as some nation's individual problem..there has to be policing by someone. or it will become the new world order.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Simplistic on many levels
by thepolice stewart on Jan 27, 2007 12:26 AM Permalink
shubra, yes saddam did massacre kurds, he did deserve death for that.but who will get tried for the thousands of iraq's getting killed in iraq everyday,who....USA?.......huh....they will have their exit strategy well planned.
why was saddam executed in a hurry?albeit if you say its a political stunt by the republicans for their 2009 election showdown,the reason is not accepted, its far more than that,......its about real image and the hidden intentions of america. he needed a fair trial not a biased one. why wasnt he tried by international court of justice by UN? why was his 2 lawyers killed in mysterious circumstances? why was the most senior judge removed (biased?) and instead was replaced by a one who had already consumed loads of money.
yes there will be some other nation performing the rogue super cop image butUSA has other intentions which they balance them out with a very well supported media which brain washes million people at one go,not to mention that fact that Gerald ford proved to be a true martyr of his country of his timley death during saddam's execution and the american media who would actually cover the death of a dog clearley diverted their coverage to ford and obscurred saddam execution fearing the coverage would trigger terror attacks but this will showcase brillanly hyped during 2009 elections. please read iran-iraq war spanning 9 years,saddam was a made a friend and later a scapegoat by US,to get nuke secrets from iran and pass it over to them.Also as per US double standard track records there were ulterior motives : 1) US didnt want Iran to be the regional power thats why made made saddam friend. 2) got revenue by selling arms to iraq 3)oil motives and also Mr senior Bush was into oil business..and many more.
its all a symbiotic relationship with a ulterior motive,its not globalization thats happening now its exploitation in the name of globalization that the imperialistic powers are hell bent to continue it in a subtle way.
again iam in opposition of the ruthless slowpoisoning pin-pricking double standard "trigger and vanish " methods of american policy makers and not against the people,as truly they did -giving food from chopper from one side and bombs on the other!
refer my reply to Tracy for those of you who havent read my earlier reply.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Simplistic on many levels
by ratnesh srivastav on Jan 27, 2007 12:42 AM Permalink
just because Bush has and is doing wrong does not mean that one should pardon Saddam. Ask those who lost nead and dear ones because of saddam. Bush must be punished but leaving saddam scot free just because we cannot punish bush is no logic. If we work in this manner then release all terrorists in Indian jails as we cannot catch and punish dawood ibrahim. cool down and remember no perpetrator of crime should be left
RE:RE:Simplistic on many levels
by vatsan on Jan 26, 2007 03:09 AM Permalink
Tracy,yes politicians and presidents have their own opinion ,nevertheless they should realize that their decision creates/affects the image of a 300 million people inside and outside their country.policy makers of united states should understand the fact that they are creating a dangerous world by poking the needle on both sides.the world doesnt want this rogue cop to interfere in every aspect.today its afghanistan,iraq....tomorro it will be n.korea,iran...ok understood afghanistan,but why iraq,because its the typical bollwood/hollywood flick,american policy makers are the villian they hire a henchman (saddam H) to finish their enemy (other developing/developed nations) and once the job (like obtaining nuke secrets from iran and passing it on to CIA)is finished by the henchman the hench man is inturn killed.this is what unites staes does,and by USA i dont mean the entire people i mean the policy makers.its time for american to refrain from the apocalyptic super cop image. i have been in united states (iam back to india now)for 7 years and its so pathetic to see 300 million good people brain washed by the media at one go having no idea of what's happening outside theirs.an american visiting outside his country should feel safe. yes,"might is right",but the policy makers shouldnt forget david and goliath. iam not against americans but against their cunning policy makers.....they are the #1 terrorists.
some correspondent that had to promote her/his firm's biz. interests went and interviewed a retired guy with time aplenty. it is infathomable to me why all of us that yearn to "stay informed" but have busy lives, tend to spend time debating like what is happening here.....this is what they probably call intellectual M.
Due to huge population everything boils down to "Survival of the fittest". This is very much applicable for our politicians. If they have to survive, they will have to live on issues, including religional divide. The sad part is majority of our common people are vulnerable to the game tactics by politicians. It's not a person..it is a system..which is like a blackhole...
as long as , muslim loyal to their own country , we salute them . the problem now adays . muslim thinking we should help islamic guy rather than thinking about the nation . if iam politician , remove all religions whether u be a hindu/muslim/christian treat all as indian thats all and develop patriotism in their mind we should protect our country we are indians . if i hurted some muslim guys iam sorry. because i saw in chennai while india pakistan cricket match almost 40% of people are supporting pakistan being living in india enjoying the comfort of home land thinking against so bad . i sincerely pleaded all indians , develop patriotism to younger generation to make india healthier and stronger, JAi HIND
RE:RE:blame the politician
by ice tea on Jan 26, 2007 01:43 AM Permalink
there is a place in chennai called icehouse near triplicane where i have seen mullahs and kullahs burst crackers when pakis win.but i have not seen them doing it when india wins.selvan sir, i guess ramesh is talking abt those things and not about our true spirits
RE:RE:RE:blame the politician
by kashif syed on Jan 26, 2007 02:25 AM Permalink
Dear Ramesh & ice tea (who ever you are)
Let me ask you a question. Which is you favourite soccer team? Brazil? France? India? I can bet 80% of the people will name a country other than India thats because they love that team for the game they play not for where they are from. Same thing applies in cricket too. They are just following the team they prefer. Theres nothing wrong in it.
RE:RE:RE:RE:blame the politician
by AbdulR on Jan 26, 2007 12:26 PM Permalink
Let me ask u in a different way, do u think that the same people, who support Pak, while playing against India, will support Pak if Pak fights against another Islamic country? Or will they support another Islamic country; say Oman, if there is a match between Oman and India? Or will these people support Pak, if there is a match between Pak and SA? So y then they support Pak, only during match against India? It is how they are poisoned by out great Indian Politicians for their benefits forgetting the national interest. Or can u name a single Indian politician working for the national interest?
You just see how the Tamalians are reacting to the comment against people in Chennai. We are never Indians, but only a group of people who are bundled together on the basis of cast, religion, region, color, language etc and preparing to find a reason to fight each other on any of these.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:blame the politician
by Priyanka Das on Jan 27, 2007 12:52 AM Permalink
I can understand your frustrations AbdulR.Infact the new generation has to bring about a mass perception change across religion ,language or creed. One probable way to probably do it is to immune the children from such sentiments. After all with all the growth and economic boom taking place right now in India they will be inheriting it and showing new directions to it in the years to come.But the biggest question is how ?
RE:RE:RE:RE:blame the politician
by Priyanka Das on Jan 26, 2007 03:55 AM Permalink
kashif sahab, i think you misunderstood the point. Tomorrow if there is a match between India and Brazil which team will you support ? I agree that we may be on the losing side, because I feel we still do not have any worldclass footballers to match the Sambas and we can gulp that defeat gracefully, but I could never imagine somebody residing in India bursting crackers because India lost !! ( unless ofcourse you are a left-ist :) )
RE:blame the politician
by opipioi jppoi on Jan 26, 2007 06:31 AM Permalink
this is the stupidest comment I have ever seen..Hello sir, have you ever visited chennai..chennai is the only place where muslims live peacefully along with every other community..not like ghettos in other cities...please go around India with ur stupid eyes open...
RE:blame the politician
by Shoaib on Jan 26, 2007 04:19 PM Permalink
if we vote for congress whose leaders are mostly hindus still it is a problem for indians. Shiv sena doesnt wants our vote so what should we do?
RE:RE:blame the politician
by Priyanka Das on Jan 27, 2007 01:05 AM Permalink
Shoaib, vote for a party whom you feel can work for a better India. No offence intended, but stay away from the pseudosecularist Congress party. I guess they have learnt their lessons from the British on divide and rule policy very well and have been practically working on the same.
What Mr sheshan, at this level also you have got prejudice. Now I understood why you did hand shake with shiv sena to become president of India. Bach gaye Hum.
Coming to your point when we go to Europe we feel good when we meet someone from Pakistan, Nepal, Bagladesh, Srilanka...
Even hindu feels happy when they see a Hindu white or so in Europe or america.
Everyone feels happy seeing there likes as much as when you see a tamil brahamin anywhere in the world.
RE:Prejudice
by R J on Jan 25, 2007 11:25 PM Permalink
You mignt feel happy, as you put it , & that is great.
What causes the Indonesian Muslim (or the Bangalore or Kerala one) to commit violence on his hindu neighbor, just because Saddam was hanged in faraway Iraq, or the Caliphate was abolished in faraway Turkey?
No matter how "unhappy" this makes the "Ummah" member, why take it out on his hindu neighbors?
RE:RE:Prejudice
by jadoo khan on Jan 26, 2007 01:38 PM Permalink
How many friday brainwashing session you had dear. Please visit a few mosque, there all speaks on different lines generally. You please make sure u visit at least three at different places on friday.
Moreover About saddam, the way Bush has handled it it has become an against muslim atmosphere. The reaction is that muslim as a whole are thinking about it and when someone in my neighbour will feel happy about his death, the direct intention will be to provoke me and then the result will come.
RE:RE:RE:Prejudice
by ratnesh srivastav on Jan 27, 2007 12:04 AM Permalink
Hahahaha khan. This post shows your true colour. You are ready to kill a poor Indian who differs from you about a punishment a foreign country gives to a foreigner but will not follow rule of law. Donot forget we live in democracy and we all have the right to have our opinions. If he is shouting in favour of the death statement then you can shout against, but you cannot kill him for his views. Your mentality shows the nature people like you have and this is responsible for the happening of GODHRAs and when you get a proper response in terms of gujrat then you claim that poor people like you are being persecuted. hahaha clearly your bigotry is shown. I suggest you that "If you donot like you the rule of law in INDIA and cannot respect the right of free speech then move out of India and go to any country you like". Just cool down and think which country you will move to and will have same rights as you have in INDIA.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Prejudice
by jadoo khan on Jan 28, 2007 09:54 PM Permalink
SABHI KA KHOON HAI SHAMIL YAHAN KI MITTI MEIN KISI KE BAAP KA HINDOSTAN THODI HAI,,
I have not said that the shall be killed dear ratnesh..as long as problem with rule of law is concerned,..it shown that you have like the nithri killings very much..and if u did not like it..the rule of law in india..then leave India and go somewhere else..don,t protest..this is what u suggested me..may god bless u with right mind..be happy
read your post. It does not make sense except for the first 2 lines.
I agree with SABHI KA KHOON HAI SHAMIL IS MITTI MEIN Ye TERA aur MERA bhi hai.
Being Indian is a privilage and it is only for those that feel, work and behave like Indians. You said "by supporting saddam's death some one was hurting your feelings and hence shall be punished". Let me ask you -- 1. Why should your own countrymen be punished (Hindus were killed in Bangalore by people protesting against saddam's death) for having different views about an incident that has happened thousands of miles away. 2. Who are you or these protestors to punish an innocent Indian (in this case a hindu) just because he holds a different opinion.
Clearly is is you who does not believe in rule of law (any I mean our CONSTITUTION and COURTS).
Now look around yourself and tell me one country where minorities are given so much rights? Pakistan has killed, converted and displaced minorities. China has killed millions for not following communism. America and west (so called champions of human rights) never had a muslim or a black as leader (president) so India is best country in the world because of its CONSTITUTION and RULE OF LAW (COURTS). NOBODY HAS A RIGHT TO KILL ANYONE. So SPEAK TRUTH. and I dont know whether GOD will bless anyone of us because of so much hatred that we have for each other. vandemateram
RE:RE:RE:RE:Prejudice
by sahi on Jan 27, 2007 12:15 AM Permalink
Freedom of speech is good as long as nobody bombs local trains and hospitals and stock markets. My family and neighbours work there.
What right do kashmiri pandits have over their own homes in kashmir? zilch, nada meaning none.
THey only have freedom of speech left to say they got kicked out of their own homes.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Prejudice
by ratnesh srivastav on Jan 27, 2007 12:51 AM Permalink
I fully agree with you my friend. But tell me who will fight if not those who are being uprooted. If naxals can get arms then what is stopping the pandits. Believe me there are thousands of youth ready to claim back kashmir but pandits should provide leadership. If not you then who? Pandits were persecuted by jihadis because they were the best indian defence against pakistan. Tell me why can you not first go back to border areas of jammu and then sanitise it by settling ther. After clearing it of jihadi supporters move further and keep the pakistan lovers back. Return with a tide. and wash out the filth of terror. All Indians (do not depend on government-- that is (we all know) corrupt) are with you in terms of money, morale and even life. But you will have to provide the first spark. vandemateram
The views expressed in article abt trans muslim brother hood is a myth , An Indian/pakistani muslim is never treated as a true muslim in gulf ,The pan islamic brother hood or a pan islamic state which these jehadis dream streaching from palestine to Indonesia van never be a reality
RE:myth
by Ibrahim Sheik on Jan 25, 2007 05:46 PM Permalink
I completly Disagree with your Opinion, we are here in Gulf for the Past 5 Years, there is no Discrimination based on Country. I still feel that Gulf is more civilized than Europe, where we Indians are Discriminated based on Color.
RE:RE:myth
by SENGATHIR SELVAN on Jan 25, 2007 07:22 PM Permalink
I would not entirely agree with you Ibrahim... Why muslims were killed in Bangladesh by Pak army.. I thik it is becuase they were impure muslims
RE:RE:RE:myth
by shantanu mukherjee on Jan 25, 2007 10:43 PM Permalink
impure hindus or muslims,pure hindus muslims what crap you guys talk.when it comes to politics,money and power religion just happens to be the best weapon to ignite our mind.Even people who never cared for religion suddenly start claiming to be the defenders.
RE:RE:myth
by on Jan 26, 2007 01:57 AM Permalink
What civilazation are you talking about?
Try being a hindu or christian in your cilized gulf. You can be hanged and your hands head something chopped off based on what the pure muslim sheikh thinks.
What rights do women have in gulf?
What rights do minorities have? Oops no minorites here, they all got wiped out just like in Bangladesh and Pakistan.
RE:RE:RE:myth
by Shoaib on Jan 26, 2007 03:14 AM Permalink
This person doesnt knows there are 14 million coptic christians in middle east. Uninformed people should not write in message board.
RE:RE:RE:RE:myth
by sahi on Jan 27, 2007 12:19 AM Permalink
How many christians/hindus are there is saudi,UAE,oman,bahrain?
I am well informed because I know people who go to work in these countries.
By the way the coptic christians are in egypt,syria,armenia and turkey. That's technically middle east but I am talking about the terrorist supporting gulf states.
RE:myth
by swarup laha on Jan 26, 2007 10:51 PM Permalink
You all are just religious fanatics. Given the slightest opportunity you are even fighting over messages. If we really want to advance our religions will never ever help us.
RE:myth
by jadoo khan on Jan 25, 2007 06:12 PM Permalink
aajkal har aadmi islam ka expert hai aur mulims ke sab kuchh janta hai...its Irony dear Sachin..you sounds like a gilli danda player giving tips to sachin and lara on cricket.
every religion has some flaws as its not amended to todays reality.it so happens islam defects are more raw in nature and visible in today's society.I know it hurts anybody when their religion is mocked at or abused.Sorry abt that.
RE:RE:myth
by on Jan 26, 2007 02:07 AM Permalink
aadmi ko jo dikhta hai, aadmi vo boolta hai. kashmir se sab hinduo ko bhagaya. Bombay mai aake local train mai bomb phoda. What do you expect people to think? Islam is a religion of peace?
RE:RE:RE:myth
by Shoaib on Jan 26, 2007 03:18 AM Permalink
What do u say about the massacre commited in gujrat ? Does u r religion teach cutting a 3 month old child by knife ?
RE:RE:RE:myth
by Shoaib on Jan 26, 2007 03:20 AM Permalink
my best friend is a hindu and he did not commit gujrat attorocites people like u do who are cowards
RE:RE:RE:RE:myth
by ratnesh srivastav on Jan 26, 2007 11:49 AM Permalink
SHOAIB gujrat yaad hai to Godhra ko kyon bhool raha hai. As long as godhra happens Gujrat will continue happening. Hindus didnot start the violence. But hindus are also not cowards. We believed in rule of law but if it is incapable of preventing GODHRA then common man will take law in his hand. If you do not like GUJRAT then do not kickout your mullahs that brainwash you people in doing GODHRA
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:myth
by jadoo khan on Jan 26, 2007 01:45 PM Permalink
I have never seen a muslim defending the act of godhra but there are so many so called intellectuals who justify gujrat without shame and also write openly that they can repeat it.
you cannot be true representative of hinduism, u r just a....i don,t know what
RE:RE:myth
by sahi on Jan 27, 2007 12:20 AM Permalink
sachin agar cricket chood ke local train mai bomb phoodna chalu karega tho gulli danda vaalo ko bhi ussko samjhana padega bhai bat le aur cricket khel.
RE:Integrate India
by vijay baskar on Jan 27, 2007 12:18 PM Permalink
concentrate on something inoovative to build up india and stop thinking like this on useless ideas of making one common language..we dont have the rights to tell everybody around the country what to speak and what not..
RE:Integrate India
by suresh n on Jan 26, 2007 03:33 AM Permalink
Dont come with the concept like one common language... Wht does this actually mean??? scrap all other languages in India and make one language (hindi) spoken by all??? How many people will aaccept Hindi??? definetely not me.... Take Care, nsuresh_rasr
RE:Integrate India
by Thiagarajan Venkatesh on Jan 25, 2007 03:58 PM Permalink
Who said common language would integrate India. It would actually lead to disintegration.
RE:RE:RE:Integrate India
by Soumodeep Biswas on Jan 25, 2007 06:50 PM Permalink
what are you gonna make as a common language. Hindi? Do you know 70% of Indians hate Hindi. Bengalis, Tamils and other people all will separate. Let other people have the freedom of speaking their own language.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Integrate India
by SENGATHIR SELVAN on Jan 25, 2007 07:19 PM Permalink
More languages.. One India One language.. God forebid..more Indians..
RE:Integrate India
by suresh n on Jan 26, 2007 03:30 AM Permalink
Dont come with the concept like one common language... Wht does this actually mean??? scrap all other languages in India and make one language (hindi) spoken by all??? How many people will aaccept Hindi??? definetely not me....
