I agree that history should be looked at squarely in the face and the facts acknowledged and yes, Aurangzeb was mostly a bigoted and intolerant ruler who followed a puritanical brand of Islam.But he also had many Rajputs serving in his army (Remembar Jaisingh who fought Shivaji on behalf of the Mughals?)So it's not exactly black and white.If we go back in time to read about all the atrocities committed where do we stop? The Dalits have been shamefully oppressed for centuries by the so called upper castes.Should we have a museum documenting that as well? Lets look at history in the right perspective.What we are seeing here is people being fed a one sided narrow version which is producing a victim mentality and fanning the flames of hatred and revenge.The people who did what they did are long dead.We need to rise above narrow caste/creed considerations and as Indians work to strengthen and develop our country now, in this age of globalisation or we will be left behind due to our infighting.
RE:Lets move on!
by chetan naidu on Feb 16, 2007 03:32 PM Permalink
Though it is true that we have to move on, but Francious's tirade seems to be against the willful concealment of facts by the Marxist historians and is not a personal vendetta mission against Muslims. It is also important that we see thet truth in its own light, only then can we move ahead into a harmonious future.
RE:Lets move on!
by anuj agarwal on Feb 16, 2007 03:14 PM Permalink
Well what aurangzeb did was wrong and is an accepted fact. Other rulers might be hindus or christians would have wrong and must be condemned BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT AURANZEB WAS RIGHT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE DID THE BAD THINGS.
RE:RE:Lets move on!
by Suddhajit Sen on Feb 16, 2007 03:54 PM Permalink
Dear Anuj, Anis has never said Aurangzeb was right,he has mentioned about similar atrocities which are a part of our history. Aurangzeb was wrong and so was our cast system and many other things. It is important that we explore our own history by ourselves rather than by some european historean,so this article is justified. And Anis is justified too as he said we Indians need to rise above these debates and prove ourselves as an emerging economic superpower.
RE:Lets move on!
by Raj Royale on Feb 16, 2007 03:25 PM Permalink
Upper caste Hindus are still paying for all of it since the last 60 years. By giving more taxes, by not being given deserved jobs due to caste based reservations. If you sow, so shall you pay.
RE:Lets move on!
by Dr. Vinay Gupta on Feb 16, 2007 03:42 PM Permalink
Why are you getting defensive???? If you are a true Indian you will stand together with other brothers and sisters of this country to criticize what Aurangjeb did. SO that no one else ever dreams of repeating that.
RE:Lets move on!
by praveen kumar on Feb 16, 2007 03:31 PM Permalink
anis, how is that muslims are masters of sophystry arguments ????... how long are u going to deny the brutality the muslim invaders did to india ???? shall i give the list of number of hindu tempels and monsatrues destroyed by muslim thugs ??? shall i give u tears and pains of millions of hindus butchered by muslim rulers ???
u think all of us are joking or over hyping the issue ??? ... how much hue and cry muslims made when only one masjid was destroyed ,imagine the pain and feelings of hindus when brutally muslim thugs descrated and destroyed our temples .... hinduismis a reformist relgion and we are striving hard to elimiante caste systems ...but is there any reform in islam ??? or perhaps due to know the meaning of "self introspection " .....
Aceept the truth first and we have no hatred against "INDIAN" muslims ..we see them as indian first ..but sadly not muslims brothers who even fail to sing vande matram
RE:RE:Lets move on!
by Anis Farooqui on Feb 17, 2007 04:40 PM Permalink
Pravin I for one, have never denied the brutality and barbarity of Muslim invaders who killed millions and also destroyed temples.I condemn them wholeheartedly and feel the pain and anger that comes on reading about it.But I have read enough history to know that there have been evil tyrants in all parts of the world who have inflicted unimaginable pain and suffering on innocents in wars of conquest.Whether its Genghis khan,Hitler or Stalin there has been cruelty throughout history.A million people were hacked to death in Rwanda just 13 years ago.The question is what do we do about it today? Remember its always been the weak who have been oppressed.As rational civilized beings we need to promote a humane approach but be strong enough to prevent any further attacks upon us.Thats why I advocate a twin policy of humanity (as exemplefied in our constitution)and strength both military and economic to take care of ourselves and deter our enemies.
when i read things like these and realize that there is bound to be at least an iota of truth somewhere in the story, it makes me extremely angry. the blood boils to learn that someone was hell bent on destroying my race and i feel like burning the muslim world down. but then i think and realize that it all happened in the past and that the current lot of muslims had nothing to do with it. i find myself reconciling to the mantra 'let bygones be bygones'. but then again when i see so many of my muslim compatriots actually taking the trouble of defending such a figure, i am compelled to become angry again. mr. gautier was at least right about the fact that there is a shadow of aurangzeb sweeping across my country again. every passing day makes me even more eager for the impending Islamic Reformation. it is bound to come cos i have faith in the triumph of reason over blind faith.
lets file a pettition against REDIFF for the following:
1) they are coming up with articles that are causing hatred, separating people based on religion, caste, region, state, culture and language etc etc and the list goes on..
Its really disgrace ful to see such a popular webiste behaving in such ir-responsible manner.
RE:SUE REDIFF
by SHIVANGNI sharma on Feb 16, 2007 03:07 PM Permalink
Its pathetic that you expect educated, net using people to start using arms because of an article which is showing part of history to us. I feel you should be sued for showing this kind of intolerence
RE:SUE REDIFF
by Dr. Vinay Gupta on Feb 16, 2007 03:45 PM Permalink
Karan are you sure you are a proud INDIAN??? Do you think this article is causing hatred? YES, if you are a fundamentalist. Else I don't see anything in this article causing rift between two communities. Take out your coloured specs and see it with neutrality dear.
RE:SUE REDIFF
by Koushik Rudra on Feb 16, 2007 04:38 PM Permalink
Truth is always truth. Dear Mr. Karan Thakur, rediff is not creating or spreading hatred. It was always there created due to Muslim appeasement by the politicos and also the media.
RE:SUE REDIFF
by anuj agarwal on Feb 16, 2007 03:10 PM Permalink
You would be abusing the judicial system. Francis has written a point of view being a journalist, if you not agree give your considered thought to counter him and not to threaten him.
There are so many things which are said in the name of secularism in this country, why not francis can put a point of view
RE:SUE REDIFF
by Vikas saxena on Feb 16, 2007 03:14 PM Permalink
Why do you feel rediff is causing the hate. If you can't read the turth then it is your problem not rediff's.
RE:SUE REDIFF
by prashant pendurkat on Feb 16, 2007 03:08 PM Permalink
yes karan lets sue rediff. lets hide fact from people that muslims have slaughted lakhs of hindus, lets hide fact that there were 10 lakh hindus in pak in 1947 and today there are 5 lakhs, lets hide the fact that there were 1 crore hindus in bangladesh in 71 and today there are 50 lakhs, lets hide the fact that kashmire was 100% hindu before aurangzeb and after aurangzeb it is 100% muslims
lets hide all this, then india will be peaceful, fully secular
Aurangzeb has just not only killed Hindus he also killed Shia Muslim and the fact is that He Killed The Kutbuddin Shaheed whose Big Mazar is Built in Amdupura in Ahmedabad Gujarat who was killed by Aurangzeb. Just telling that he has Killed only Hindus is not correct, Please read the history properly before posting such articles.
RE:HE has not only killed Hindus
by ravi kirti on Feb 16, 2007 03:16 PM Permalink
Mr Lokhandwala, If you read the article carefully,Mr Gautier has clearly stated that Muslims suffered as much as Hindus under Auranzeb and that he tried to impose Sunni Islam even against people of his own aith.
RE:HE has not only killed Hindus
by Ashwin Iyer on Feb 16, 2007 03:07 PM Permalink
Dear Mustafa,
You are right. But please read through the article again. Francis does mention about Aurangzeb's Sunni superiority theory and his killing of Sufi Saints. He even mentions about his killing of his own brother who was tolerant towards other religions.
RE:RE:HE has not only killed Hindus
by Ashwin Iyer on Feb 16, 2007 03:24 PM Permalink
Ha ha...good one Alokmay...a "SECULAR KILLER"..reminds me of rulers today...
RE:HE has not only killed Hindus
by Dr. Vinay Gupta on Feb 16, 2007 03:47 PM Permalink
Appreciate your point. So together we criticize that dirty pig called Aurangjeb and remove all his traces, like the name of the road in Delhi.
RE:HE has not only killed Hindus
by King c on Feb 16, 2007 03:10 PM Permalink
Please read the article carefully. It says: "Let Hindus and Muslims then come to terms with what happened under Aurangzeb, because Muslims suffered as much as Hindus. It was not only Shah Jahan or Dara Shikoh who were murdered, but also the forefathers of today's Indian Muslims who have been converted at 90 per cent."
Please read and THEN jump on to make any comments!
I wish all should first feel human. religion is belief, just belief. Different mind-different situation,different pressures makes us to beleive something is true now. It is just that religion. Please, for GOd sake, dont divide on basis of belief, which will frequently change. THATs why religious leaders fear abt their income/survival, forcing us to nailing down on single belief. jsut Understand, dont fall prey, LIVE HAPPILY as just HUMAN.
RE:Another attempt to divert people
by Dr. Vinay Gupta on Feb 16, 2007 03:48 PM Permalink
Why are you so afraid looking back to reality. Be brave face truth. Those we don't have this courage get wiped out from map of world.
This is not something against any religion, but against a barbaric and mindless satan who ruled this country.
I am sure after his cruel deeds, he couldnt have gained entry into Hell. I am sure god must have created a "SPECIAL" HELL CELL for this SATAN where his cruel soul must be getting boiled alive.
The article is good but we all know about this so why at this jucture???There wont be any muslim who wont know that Aurangzeb killed his father/brother---but they look at the positive side of Aurangzeb that he lived by making praying caps and he did 5 times namaz-------Likewise it goes without saying that there are lot of positive sides in Narendra Modi aswell So what is necessary for every one is to see positive in every one--becasue Ram,ALlah God is there in every single atom..... The sacrifices given by hindu,muslim or sikhs is nothing compared to Parsi.They were uprooted from their land,lost thier language and culture but still they are most happy,rich and most non-violent community--becuase they see good,positive in every walk of life---
If we see negative side in every object person then it is we who will pay the high prise of High blood pressure, high level of tension and lastly spending our hard earned money in doctor fees lastly dying on hospital bed......so what did we gain after taking a human birth -----Do you know why we are born as Human being----to merge with ultimate Truth not to find negative in every person....
Cool guys i am sure the GOD in heaven must be having a big Laugh when HE watches Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Human Being) putting up fight to protect HIM........
the author are supposed to write--let them write but our heart should not burn with fire---and loose our sleep
RE:All actions are pre-decided by GOD
by Dr. Vinay Gupta on Feb 16, 2007 03:53 PM Permalink
Why should we boil our blood, TRUE. How does it affects me if neighbour is looted or politicians are doing bad. We see the 'positive side' e.g. the dacoits didn't killed that neighbours' entire family just looted them or that a politician just gobbled few thousand crores of Rs. and not the entire wealth of the nation. GREAT!! SO tomorrow if someone kills your son you should feel happy that he didn't kill you or your remaining family. LOOK TO POSITIVE SIDE- what a philosophy, hahaahhahaha
RE:RE:All actions are pre-decided by GOD
by bharathi raja on Feb 16, 2007 04:39 PM Permalink
Mr.Gupta, You are absolutely corect. This particular mentality (of Sharma R) of indians make us less aggressive people and accepting defeats with folded hands. Good comparison! keep it up! Jai Hind.
RE:RE:All actions are pre-decided by GOD
by Sharma R on Feb 16, 2007 05:55 PM Permalink
Dr. You seem to be angry dr. who will use sword where the work can be handled with needle.
Firstly we are operating on dead man who died in 16th centurey he is not present to listen to our concerns., but what is more important for all relgion to see positive in others and forget the atrocities., otherwise there is no end to this cycle of revenge.,Dont forget how hindus killed sikhs--but they are still liked by hindus becuse they never took revenge and in every walk of life they are true indians.,
Indians are liked through out the world because we believe in forgiveness and their should be no shame in it.,
and forgivenss and seeing positive have nothing to do with being scared.Otherwise we should brand al the sikhs as scared for they never come up with forums of how we were treated by Hindus.,think twice before you jump to any decisions......Jai hind
Since a lot of people here are talking about secularism and pseudo-secularism, let me remind you about something. The word secularism was introduced in India (Indian Consitution) through the 42nd amendment in 1976 by Indira Priyadarshini Nehru. Also please note that India was under the state of emergency from July 1975 to March 1977.
Every one knows about the rule of Aurangzeb, he is a cruel ruler and a terrorist on that time. These kind of peoples has started the terrorism and they put the seed of terrorism.
Very shame for us to use his name as a street in the capital of india like Delhi. We have lot of patriotic leaders like Gandhiji, Subash Chandra bose, Bhagath Singh, Vivekananda etc.
Any how peoples should think and change it. As a journalist they have to publish the truth and true history to every one. Bcoz nowadays peoples wouldn't read the history and most of them don't know about our indian history. So this kind of articles required to read the peoples.
Histories are created and written by human beings.So its obvious there are at least some biases present in the narration. For Muslims the ruler in question was extremely Islamic so he was good on the other hand for Hindus he was barbaric for his deeds. Even Asoka the great emperor was barbaric in this sense. Not Muslims were at all responsible for his deeds, if at all anti hindus, at that period. please stop labelling Muslims as anti-Hindus. I respect Hinduism as being one of the most ancient and tolerant religion. But dont try to spread hatred in the name of REWRITTEN history. Let Hindus and Muslims of India live in harmony and peace.
RE:Aurangzeb (RA)
by tamal sarkar on Feb 16, 2007 03:29 PM Permalink
I agree that Ashoka was barbaric to Conquer other nations but not in the name of religion.He did not break their Worship places and not behead their religious leaders like Guru Teg Bahadur.If you pray 5 Times a day that doesnt give you the right to break any worship place or behaed any religious leader who is not accepting to accept Islam. Secondly Ashoka after the Kalinga War was so repentant on his action that he started crying after war accepted Budhdhism spread the message of Truth as he constructed the Shanti Stupa in Kalinga and he went even to the extent that he changed his name from "Chhandashoka" to "Dhammashoka". So it is an insult to compare a demon like aurangazed to Ashoka who recreated his image as messiah of Tolerance and peace and helped the Buddhist missionaries financially to spead the word of truth and peace.Kindly read the Ashokan Scriptures you will find that it will be a day dream for Muslims to become so HUMANE.
RE:Aurangzeb (RA)
by Ankit Jain on Feb 16, 2007 03:08 PM Permalink
i think u didnt read it carefully. its no harm to read your history. what the writer is trying is to give a view that we need to ensure these things font happen again...
RE:RE:Aurangzeb (RA)
by faize rizvi on Feb 16, 2007 03:17 PM Permalink
Dear Ankit your History and my history are not different. we are all Indians and our history is same.
RE:Aurangzeb (RA)
by Jarnail singh on Feb 16, 2007 03:23 PM Permalink
rizvi saab let me tell you the truth. aurangzeb was an emperor. he wanted to spread his empire by any mean. he killed his brother dara shikoh and imprisoned his own father. but to avoid criticism by clerics and big maulana lobby he masked himself as a devout muslim. you may agree that a devout muslim could not became an emperor. today a devout muslim cannot win a municipality election. just to please the fanatic clerics and maulanas aurangzeb started conversions. dara shikoh was tolerant to hindu and other religions {this is what you expect from hindus in india now}. so when you support aurangzeb and forget about dara shikoh then how can you criticise modis and fanatic hindus. it is shameful at one hand you people supports a person who killed tolerant dara shikoh and converted thousands of hindus forcefully. on other hand criticise hindu extremists and wanted a tolerant india. you have to support the tolerant figures in history. you say now we should forget about past. but when extremist hindu organisations will say forget the gujarat massacre what will you say? history is to learn for good. i too believe historyh should not become a tool to spread intolerance. but you should be the first person to start supporting tolerant rulers not intolernat rulers like aurangzeb
RE:RE:Aurangzeb (RA)
by faize rizvi on Feb 16, 2007 03:35 PM Permalink
Dear Jarnail Singh jee. the time has changed much. today we are more civilized and advanced. how can you support todays atrocities by drawing support from the similar deeds of the past rulers. and please stop ascribing YOU people and WE people because I gave my views as an Indian Muslim and not as Muslims alone
