We will always be slaves. Slaves of our own imaginations and slaves of our past. I have a question, the forefathers that we are all talking about never new anything like an India or a Hindustan existed, until the mughals or the britishers came. India was defined by the mughals and then the British. They added to and became a part of the Indian culture.
No doubt they took their pound of flesh from us, but they also enriched and created this nation, which we are fighting for. If you do not believe it, then look around the country and you will see that most monuments and culture, educational system, roads, infrastructure etc are a legacy of these "Invaders". There is nothing to suggest that anything great existed before them, probably because we were all split into small, miniscule independent nations.
So Mr. Francois Gautier, i do not know which country and people you talk about, and frankly i do not think that you understand India or its History, or maybe you know it so well that you can manipulate it to your own benefit. Got the clue??? But yes you do understand Indians very well, like the britishers and other invaders, you do know our weaknesses. Divide and Rule is comin back....we have a blast from the past.
RE:we will always remain slaves....
by sandeep rane on Feb 16, 2007 05:38 PM Permalink
it is not that these invaders defined this country. it was in exsistance long before they came. what you say is absolute wrong. better get your history lessons repeated.it was know as bharath.and had a rich heritage and culture.
RE:RE:we will always remain slaves....
by adfasd asdasd on Feb 16, 2007 05:39 PM Permalink
Thank you sir... pray tell me the name of the kings and dyansties who ruled "BHARATH"
RE:we will always remain slaves....
by Vasant Sivashanmugam on Feb 16, 2007 06:15 PM Permalink
I agree with your views. We should stand united and redefine what India is. Religion should make people tolerant and differentiate them from the beasts. Anybody who harms a fellow human who harms a fellow human in the name of religion will defeat the purpose of religion.
Every person has the right to express. I hope the author's expression is not to targeted to increase hatred amongst us. History should be remembered and not repeated.
Let us create vibrant India and show the world how people of multiple religion and race live in harmony.
RE:RE:we will always remain slaves....
by adfasd asdasd on Feb 16, 2007 06:35 PM Permalink
Thank you SIr...i know that there are many like minded, sane and non-pseudosecularists Indians around....its only that we need to come together, unite and make this India a sone ki chidiya again...which by the way it was until the 17th century
RE:we will always remain slaves....
by vikas pai on Feb 16, 2007 05:27 PM Permalink
Dear adfasd,
I think you are wrong in saying that moghuls defined India and created structures and monuments. Moghuls never ruled entire India that we know today. It was British. Moghul never built structures other than mosques on destroyed temples. Haddappa-Mohenadaro was not built by moghuls. Moghuls destroyed many of Indian structures the way they did in Afganistan. Look at countries beyond Pakistan. Mughals have not built any significant structure where they came from. Open your eyes to real history. Read more of world history and if possible Quran to understand Moghul mentality.
RE:RE:we will always remain slaves....
by adfasd asdasd on Feb 16, 2007 05:38 PM Permalink
My dear fellow, please do not be blinded....you are okay with british but not with Moghuls...
I think i should not comment...but still for the love of my country
but mohenjo daro was 5000 years back...and probably they were not the hindus you think yourself to be... Also most of North India is dotted by monuments which are not mosques and created by Moghuls...
Please do not comment out of blind rage or hatred, but think of this world from a wider perspective....
Finally yes Aurangzeb ruled about 80% of current India and Pakistan...
Finally a rejoinder i am not a fan of Aurangzeb and want him to be damned as i would for any other tyrant....
We had many tyrants even before mughals...but probably we do not want to know their history.... Right Mr Francois????
Our ignorance is bared when we think about mughals and think about them being beyond Pakistan, Mughals ruled samarkand(now afghanistan), pakistan and India...
Finally please do not talk about Quran....it is a book that goes far beyond your's and mine inetellects....
There were mistakes made in the history, most of us have learned and are trying to move ahead. Please do the same and don't look on the past to develop your future. There are more important things in life to be taken control of, religion should not come between such issues, it should remain as individual%u2019s faith. Sometimes I wonder that our forefathers were much better, when every on worshiped Sun. Tree or something, at least there was no religion to fight about. Why do we involve religion into everything, why can't we have a simple, peaceful life?
RE:RE:Please Ignore This Article!!
by krishna sumanth on Feb 16, 2007 05:18 PM Permalink
I agree with Abhishek. There's no point in arguing about something that's all over some 4-5 centuries ago. It's a truth which all of us know, anyway. We all read about Jaziya and other things done by Aurangazeb in our textbooks.
RE:Please Ignore This Article!!
by NIRANJAN L on Feb 16, 2007 06:15 PM Permalink
WOW...WHAT A JOKE HAPPENING HERE....THE GUY (FRANCOIS GAUTIER) IS A CHRISTIAN WHO IS SO SUCCESFUL IN CREATING A WAR (OF WORDS & SUBSEQUENT BLOOD SHED) BETWEEN HINDUS & MUSLIMS... WAKE UP GUYS.. WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO IN LIFE THAN FIGHT ABOUT RELIGION. REMEMBER... GOD MADE MAN...MAN DIDN'T MAKE GOD. RELIGION IS BUT MAN MADE & MOST CERTAINLY THERE ARE SEVERAL FLAWS. THE WORLD IS PROGRESSING & WE SHOUDLN'T BE LEFT BEHIND. WAKE UP TO FACTS FACING US IN THE EYE. LEAVE RELIGION TO THE CLERGIES. THEY ARE GONNA DIE SOON ANYWAY.
RE:Please Ignore This Article!!
by rajkumar vaikhari on Feb 16, 2007 05:12 PM Permalink
This article is important! You cannot ignore history. Just like the TRC in South africa, made an unbiased version of the history a must to peace (it worked), we have to follow the same.
Thank you for sharing your delightful views with 'us' through this article. By %u2018us%u2019 I mean the minority of the Indians within India who access the Net and check rediff.com now and then, and the ones who live abroad. Yes these some of 'us' pride in ourselves for being educated and being able to support ourselves, and possibly have a dream for the future.
You know, we are much better placed than so many others of our Indian brethren who find it difficult to make two square meals a day, find a place to sleep in the nights of monsoon and winter, feel inadequate because they cant feed their children, or those cant fight off that nagging urge to consume pesticide (because the government did not come to the rescue on the farm debts).
I think that am also better off because I can bribe the corrupt clerk better than so many others who have to have a small loan sanctioned, pension released after a lifetime of slogging, to get government declared compensation for the relative who was killed (from one of those numerous train/road accidents in India), or be displaced from my farm lands and my home to accommodate somebody%u2019s business plans. Hmmm, I don%u2019t think that I will starve to death, let those who do that like they do in India, do it.
And here I am with a cup of tea from my company%u2019s vending machine (aaah%u2026) and I have read your article. Your article is delightful.
Someone once coded that %u201Cignorant of history%u201D %u201Crepeat it%u201D. your article is meaning to convey that it makes great sense. Because, characters from history repeat themselves in the to-day in various forms, colors, ethnicities and communities. And I am sure you don%u2019t want another such a villain from any community at all. And funnily enough, to counter the ghost you have just raised from hundred of years ago. J
Culture is important Mr. Gautier, and I am proud to be an Indian. I don%u2019t need a self styled saviour of Indian culture telling me what my culture is. And have another Aurangazeb fantasy come to reality today.
If you have anything better to do, would you have any ideas for those who have not this article yet? They could be any of those numerous examples mentioned at the start of this message?
RE:Thank you Mr.Gautier, but......
by NIRANJAN L on Feb 16, 2007 06:16 PM Permalink
WOW...WHAT A JOKE HAPPENING HERE....THE GUY (FRANCOIS GAUTIER) IS A CHRISTIAN WHO IS SO SUCCESFUL IN CREATING A WAR (OF WORDS & SUBSEQUENT BLOOD SHED) BETWEEN HINDUS & MUSLIMS... WAKE UP GUYS.. WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO IN LIFE THAN FIGHT ABOUT RELIGION. REMEMBER... GOD MADE MAN...MAN DIDN'T MAKE GOD. RELIGION IS BUT MAN MADE & MOST CERTAINLY THERE ARE SEVERAL FLAWS. THE WORLD IS PROGRESSING & WE SHOUDLN'T BE LEFT BEHIND. WAKE UP TO FACTS FACING US IN THE EYE. LEAVE RELIGION TO THE CLERGIES. THEY ARE GONNA DIE SOON ANYWAY.
RE:Thank you Mr.Gautier, but......
by NIRANJAN L on Feb 16, 2007 06:58 PM Permalink
Dear Zia
you can accept dark facts when you are mature enough to understand why & how they happened. Majority of Indians are still over sensitive to these issues & will flame up on recalling these incidents. Its gonna take a real long time for us to mature, think about shaping the future & then recalling & undestanding the past. Most nations that have accepted the past are the ones with one major religion. Its no joke to convince a billion people following numerous faiths about a dark past. Its best to keep the past there & move ahead. All religions have resorted to some tactic for propogation. If anyone brought out the facts about the spread of Christianity, Aurangzeb would sound like a kindergarten kid. The fact is that we are constantly facing a world that has more practical problems than spiritual ones. Every nation knows it can't survive by itself. Boundaries are opening up like never before. Communication couldn't have been better. All this is allowing human to human contacts. When you look deep inside yourself & others, you see no difference. Its something written down centuries ago, that had relevance then, that is still dictating the ways of life. Religion is required to discipline humans but law is not much different. There are plenty of Aurangzebs & Hitlers practising even today. Its just a matter of how we fight them to oblivion that decides what the world is going to look like in the near & far future. Lets wake up to accept human kind as one & sort problems that will let us all live equally & happily in the short time we are gonna be in this planet
The logic you gave for 'raking' it up: "no nation can move forward unless its children are taught to look squarely at their own history, the good and the bad, the evil and the pure"
Don't you know, the history as we know it, has always been written by the victors, this is the reason that all successful coups came to be known as revolutions, and vice versa. In spite of this, you justify, 'correct' knowledge of history for this exhibition ... You say that it is against Aurangzeb and not against moslems, ok ... fine ... But I am sure you would be the last person to say that riots against moslems in Gujarat were wrong and not an 'spontaneous' reaction ... cause there also, the riot / protests / venting of anger, whatever it is, should have been directed against the ppl who were responsible for the murder of innocents in Godhara, not against entire moslem population of gujarat, and certainly not against the unborn children and their moms, and so many innocents ... So you know, you claim to intend that the exhibition is not against moslems but against Aurangzeb, but it does not work that way, it did not ... in Gujarat ... You claim to be a historian, a truth seeker, why don't you go to human rights watch site, and find out what happened in Gujarat, or in Bombay, or for that matter most of the riots of post independent india ... and do an exhibition of that as well ... Human history, unfortunately, is full of inhuman acts ... and they are not an exclusive domain of Aurangzeb, or the moslems ...
Emperor Asoka killed his brothers, and as per a myth prevailing in Orissa, in the Kalinga War, so many people had been butchered that the soil color in Orissa, as per the myth, is still red - Pandavas and Kauravas (and you would be among the first ones to say that is history, not mythology - and I agree with you here), wiped out so many innocents, just for the lust, power, ego ... Put an exhibition ... Aryans wiped out dravidians from entire north india ... put an exhibition ... europeans almost wiped out populations of 3 continents, the ameicas and australia, put an exhibition ...
History, ceases to be itself when it starts voicing your emotions, instead of facts, full facts (partial facts are as, if not more, dangerous than a pure lie), it becomes a propaganda. And that is what this article of yours, and the exhibition is - And I am deeply concerned cause I know how powerful propaganda can be - remember Goebbels. Request you to please stop pulling india towards destruction, put your intelligence, argumentative power, scholarship into things constructive ...
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by amar pathare on Feb 16, 2007 05:15 PM Permalink
Monarchy(as well as other forms of govt)have their share of shortfalls,unneccesary violence(as is violence can be necessary;) and the kind.But remember,there is a difference between abuse of power,and the institutionalization of hatres and repression.Please refer a good book on mughals before attempting to say anythng at all.(i reccomend abraham eraly)And if history had been written by victors alone,you would not have been able to dig up that barb aimed at Emperor ashoka.Judge not lest ye be judged...
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by mks on Feb 16, 2007 05:57 PM Permalink
Every time any muslim ruler or personality is accused of attrocities psudo secularists and non hindus start pointing towards gujrat. And then they go backward into history and start pointin towards Ashoka,Mahabharat,Ramayan etc..
Ashoka killed many people but then he changed and his good deeds are well known.
Mahabharat was a war between brothers for a peice of land it was not relgious war at least it was not about spreading religion by killing people...
The article above is about Ruler who killed people for religion....
This just one example of what mulims did in this country..
Aurangzeb is still relevant today as followers of his ideoligies are causing havoc all around the world and in this country..
Peace is great but atleast know your past...or else like other ancient civilizations you(hindu) will also be wiped out from the face of the earth
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by ravi kumar on Feb 16, 2007 05:34 PM Permalink
I RATHER THANK Mr gautier who unlike our pseudo secular jahils at least accept that the true face of a devout muslim ruler is as mentioned. Its a brutal truth. Now Are indians muslims different, I think they are aproximately 80 % of the people. But dear If there are even 10-15% people having the mentality of aurangzeb its good enough to cause destruction. And Since this proportion cannot be negated so I think at least people must be aware of their future that what might be coming. Some of the good at heart indian muslims become really peaved beyond the point where the words can reach and some have become insulars leaving it to destiny, when they see these kind of discussions. But then nothing can be further from truth. Reading half truth and living in illusion is the worst thing any body would do. And Let me assure anybody who is interested that India and indians are not made for violence and ethnic cleansing. They have thousands of years of history behind them.
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by NIRANJAN L on Feb 16, 2007 06:59 PM Permalink
Dear Hide you can accept dark facts when you are mature enough to understand why & how they happened. Majority of Indians are still over sensitive to these issues & will flame up on recalling these incidents. Its gonna take a real long time for us to mature, think about shaping the future & then recalling & undestanding the past. Most nations that have accepted the past are the ones with one major religion. Its no joke to convince a billion people following numerous faiths about a dark past. Its best to keep the past there & move ahead. All religions have resorted to some tactic for propogation. If anyone brought out the facts about the spread of Christianity, Aurangzeb would sound like a kindergarten kid. The fact is that we are constantly facing a world that has more practical problems than spiritual ones. Every nation knows it can't survive by itself. Boundaries are opening up like never before. Communication couldn't have been better. All this is allowing human to human contacts. When you look deep inside yourself & others, you see no difference. Its something written down centuries ago, that had relevance then, that is still dictating the ways of life. Religion is required to discipline humans but law is not much different. There are plenty of Aurangzebs & Hitlers practising even today. Its just a matter of how we fight them to oblivion that decides what the world is going to look like in the near & far future. Lets wake up to accept human kind as one & sort problems that will let us all live equally & happily in the short time we are gonna be in this planet
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by Dinesh Sharma on Feb 16, 2007 05:30 PM Permalink
Hi ,
I fully agree with you. Such historical truth , as per Mr. Francois , will only create more Hatred among Hindus towards Muslims & nothing else. Whatever wrong had been done in past , either by Hindus ( Gujrat & Bombay riots ) or Muslims , should not be glorified again , as it'll make situation more worse. People in power ( Mughals of earlier period & politicians of today's so called democracy )always makes people fool in name of religion , caste etc., so that people can get involve in themselves & they can enjoy the power. We should try to sort out of today's serious problems , like terrorism , poority & illiteracy & Vote-bank politics.
RE:RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by ashwin waghela on Feb 16, 2007 05:48 PM Permalink
Mr Dinesh, you are wrong in blaming hindus for gujarat and bombay riots. Do a detailed study of these incidients before making such loose statement. journalists from Times of India may believe you but not me
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by NIRANJAN L on Feb 16, 2007 06:19 PM Permalink
WOW...WHAT A JOKE HAPPENING HERE....THE GUY (FRANCOIS GAUTIER) IS A CHRISTIAN WHO IS SO SUCCESFUL IN CREATING A WAR (OF WORDS & SUBSEQUENT BLOOD SHED) BETWEEN HINDUS & MUSLIMS... WAKE UP GUYS.. WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO IN LIFE THAN FIGHT ABOUT RELIGION. REMEMBER... GOD MADE MAN...MAN DIDN'T MAKE GOD. RELIGION IS BUT MAN MADE & MOST CERTAINLY THERE ARE SEVERAL FLAWS. THE WORLD IS PROGRESSING & WE SHOUDLN'T BE LEFT BEHIND. WAKE UP TO FACTS FACING US IN THE EYE. LEAVE RELIGION TO THE CLERGIES. THEY ARE GONNA DIE SOON ANYWAY.
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by aditi sengupta on Feb 16, 2007 05:24 PM Permalink
Two things: 1. Between the ethnic cleansing of hindus vs the ethnic cleansing of muslims, I would prefer the latter anyday. 2. You have the nerve to preach tolerance out here anonymously. Given that you definitely go to a mosque 5 times a day, have you ever once asked your brothers to stop the bloodshed they let loose or ever condemn what happened in Kashmir.
RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by Santa on Feb 16, 2007 05:10 PM Permalink
I completely agree with you. Gautier has consistently written on subjects of which he doesn't have complete knowledge about. But I'm not surprised that he does it time and again. Some people just do not look at the bigger picture and confine themselves to their cocoon.
RE:RE:RE:Francois Gautier, your aim seems to ensure ethanic cleansing of muslims in india
by Santa on Feb 16, 2007 05:37 PM Permalink
Any piece of literature which targets a specific group or community, with an intention of pleasing remaining groups or communities, draws plenty of comments (defensive from the targeted community and offensive from the other communities). That's not a big deal.
The threat to Hindus is not just intolerant Islam, is it?
Do you think there is any hope for Hindus until they start considering BOTH Islam & Christianity as twin BASMASURAS, with BAKASURA appetites for Hindu souls?
RE:RE:Aurangzeb, and intolerant Islam......
by Santa on Feb 16, 2007 05:42 PM Permalink
We are all aware that christians are very matured. Even the people who are targeted by christians would never be aware that they have been converted to christianity. Everything happens in a polished and seamless manner.
RE:Is Aurangazeb worth to fight for
by NIRANJAN L on Feb 16, 2007 06:20 PM Permalink
WOW...WHAT A JOKE HAPPENING HERE....THE GUY (FRANCOIS GAUTIER) IS A CHRISTIAN WHO IS SO SUCCESFUL IN CREATING A WAR (OF WORDS & SUBSEQUENT BLOOD SHED) BETWEEN HINDUS & MUSLIMS... WAKE UP GUYS.. WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO IN LIFE THAN FIGHT ABOUT RELIGION. REMEMBER... GOD MADE MAN...MAN DIDN'T MAKE GOD. RELIGION IS BUT MAN MADE & MOST CERTAINLY THERE ARE SEVERAL FLAWS. THE WORLD IS PROGRESSING & WE SHOUDLN'T BE LEFT BEHIND. WAKE UP TO FACTS FACING US IN THE EYE. LEAVE RELIGION TO THE CLERGIES. THEY ARE GONNA DIE SOON ANYWAY.
Our country succeded in showing peacefulness by aggreeing everything what we are doing is wrong.And also if any one say wrongs done by others then we are just saying it is to raise some worst protests we are stoping movies like parzania,Davinci code,Blck friday in some times for getting some goodness from minorities.Even our culture is burried into the earth also we dont care the others must not go like that.Good very good.Almost all said showing errors of aurangazeb are wrong.Why dont we learn from truths?
Mainly muslims why to praise a beast who tried to impose his own thoughts.Sorry if any one hurt with this word.But i saw that one has written that aurangzeb made this country strong?How do that person know that we dont know.We all know what happened after once Strong country developed and destroyed.We are not at all strong now.We are not ready to accept the truths about the past.Our Old History greatest of all.I will agree Why dont we take the other side also.Why our politicians praising aurangazeb?why they just kept the delhi road name with aurangazeb what type of good he has done to our country?Just open your eyes all who strongly objected this article.I know all of you are very peaceful persons who love peace.You are angry with Narendra Mody and BalThakre.One thing i want to say is you should be angry against any person who is doing wrong in any form.I am just pleading you people dont follow the Dirty politicians who are saying themselves as secularists.Or they secular by showing more love towards one minority group and trying to make distance between two groups?
We need a political party which will never talk about this relgeon i am ready to vote for candidate who is ready to do good for Human not to the religion.
RE:Lesson for Marxists to correct themselves
by Anis Khan on Feb 16, 2007 07:23 PM Permalink
Great Friend, I hope you were there when the first stone was laid of Shiva Temple, Get facts before saying any nonsense thing.
Truthfull article. Not even the streets of Delhi, Two of Indian districts are named after that idiot, Aurangabad: Maharashtra Aurangabad: Bihar Maharashtra (Gift of Shivaji Maharaj to all Maharashtrian, who fought lifelong war with Aurangzeb to protect ancesters of marathas) government still cant change that neme! Matter of shame.
RE:Shame on Governments of Maharashtra
by on Feb 16, 2007 05:18 PM Permalink
I think u annoyance with aurangzeb is totally wrong .. since these facts are not put up in correct way .. showing his only negative things.. which i think is not negative. like banning painter and music.. we muslim believe music will make u forgot the GOD. Regarding nameing the place.. i like to inform that killer of FATHER of NATION belongs to RSS .. and our former PM also belongs to the same party.. (Correct me if i am wrong).
Do u have anythig to say abt this..
let us don't scratch the things .. which will hurt the sentiments of all community.
RE:RE:Shame on Governments of Maharashtra
by Mayank Agarwal on Feb 16, 2007 07:06 PM Permalink
If you believe that music makes you forget your God !! Its fine with me but I dont feel the same, I enjoy my music also and Aarti sung in a Temple. But I would never dare to force my belief on you and I expect the same.
