RE:Yes chaitanaya my english is not good
by alok kumar on Mar 12, 2007 08:44 AM Permalink
Fallen Gods are yet better than person who asked to spread a religion by sword in the name of Jihad. If you call them Fallen Gods and mythology, pity is that a "human being" who was not even divine is the main cause behind destructive thoughts even 1500 yrs later..Its just pity on that ideology...
RE:Yes chaitanaya my english is not good
by Secular Indian on Mar 12, 2007 04:05 AM Permalink
ROFL...you actually believe that you have something worthwhile to say here...
1. Aurangzeb Chief Commanders and Higher Rank Army Officers all were Hindus. 2. The Head of Treasury top position Holding by Two Hindus. 3. In the Akbar period there was only 14 Mansab dars in the Judicial Court government. In the Aurangzeb Government there were 148 Mansabdar higher Judicial Officers. try to read.
RE:You asked for it.
by JATIN HALDANKAR on Mar 12, 2007 12:34 AM Permalink
Employing hindus in hindu dominated india .. could mean it provide administrative ease and political gain (to counter rebellion/revolt by hindus ) .how does employing few hindus at higher positions (may be because of thier capability) establishes aurangzeb's secular credentials ?..how does it prove that he was tolerant and not religous bigot ...? how does it prove that he never destroyed temples ?? Why are your showing disregard to moghul historian ? if they are saying/recorded that they destroyed temples then they must have !!!
RE:You asked for it.
by Secular Indian on Mar 12, 2007 04:04 AM Permalink
Most were in administrative positions and they had to be given a nominal position in the Mughal army for status and pay. The other reason was that the Mughals needed to incorporate the rajahs so that they could collect the taxes. This in no way detracts from Aurangzebs bigotry, killing of Hindus and forced conversion of Islam. He created the conditions in his empire for the (forced) proselytizing of Islam and its spread by the sword.
If Islam hadn't been spread by the sword from it's earliest days it would have been still-born.
RE:You asked for it.
by subbu on Mar 12, 2007 11:35 AM Permalink
Mind only a handful of British ruled India with ourown people!Does that mean they were secular-not at all.In fact The christian missionories thrived under thier rule.In fact they had a minister in each region for systematically convert Hindus and muslims to christianity! By the byI want to know if Your Allah ia man or a woman?Is he an arab and ifso where he is hiding himself.If he is so powerful why this Mohammed ran from mecca even when he was possesed by allah!You say you should worship idols,but when u are praying you are praying the Air around you!So you can pray gas butnot any solid material!What a logic!
RE:You asked for it.
by alok kumar on Mar 12, 2007 08:48 AM Permalink
Apparently, all of those Hindus converted in to Islam later... so much for Hindu lover Aurangzeb. Rather than denouncing a bad soul, I feel pity on people who defend him just because he was another muslim...
Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History? by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 11, 2007 08:54 PM | Hide replies
Of all the Muslim rulers who ruled vast territories of India from 712 to 1857 CE, probably no one has received as much condemnation from Western and Hindu writers as Aurangzeb. He has been castigated as a religious Muslim who was anti-Hindu, who taxed them, who tried to convert them, who discriminated against them in awarding high administrative positions, and who interfered in their religious matters. This view has been heavily promoted in the government approved textbooks in schools and colleges across post-partition India (i.e., after 1947). These are fabrications against one of the best rulers of India who was pious, scholarly, saintly, un-biased, liberal, magnanimous, tolerant, competent, and far-sighted.
Fortunately, in recent years quite a few Hindu historians have come out in the open disputing those allegations. For example, historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus compared to Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: "No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions." During Aurangzeb's long reign of fifty years, many Hindus, notably Jaswant Singh, Raja Rajrup, Kabir Singh, Arghanath Singh, Prem Dev Singh, Dilip Roy, and Rasik Lal Crory, held very high administrative positions. Two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb's administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh, were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne?
Most Hindus like Akbar over Aurangzeb for his multi-ethnic court where Hindus were favored. Historian Shri Sharma states that while Emperor Akbar had fourteen Hindu Mansabdars (high officials) in his court, Aurangzeb actually had 148 Hindu high officials in his court. (Ref: Mughal Government) But this fact is somewhat less known.
Some of the Hindu historians have accused Aurangzeb of demolishing Hindu Temples. How factual is this accusation against a man, who has been known to be a saintly man, a strict adherent of Islam? The Qur'an prohibits any Muslim to impose his will on a non-Muslim by stating that "There is no compulsion in religion." (surah al-Baqarah 2:256). The surah al-Kafirun clearly states: "To you is your religion and to me is mine." It would be totally unbecoming of a learned scholar of Islam of his caliber, as Aurangzeb was known to be, to do things that are contrary to the dictates of the Qur'an.
Interestingly, the 1946 edition of the history textbook Etihash Parichaya (Introduction to History) used in Bengal for the 5th and 6th graders states: "If Aurangzeb had the intention of demolishing temples to make way for mosques, there would not have been a single temple standing erect in India. On the contrary, Aurangzeb donated huge estates for use as Temple sites and support thereof in Benares, Kashmir and elsewhere. The official documentations for these land grants are still extant."
A stone inscription in the historic Balaji or Vishnu Temple, located north of Chitrakut Balaghat, still shows that it was commissioned by the Emperor himself. The proof of Aurangzeb's land grant for famous Hindu religious sites in Kasi, Varanasi can easily be verified from the deed records extant at those sites. The same textbook reads: "During the fifty year reign of Aurangzeb, not a single Hindu was forced to embrace Islam. He did not interfere with any Hindu religious activities." (p. 138) Alexander Hamilton, a British historian, toured India towards the end of Aurangzeb's fifty year reign and observed that every one was free to serve and worship God in his own way.
Now let us deal with Aurangzeb's imposition ofthe jizya tax which had drawn severe criticism from many Hindu historians. It is true that jizya was lifted during the reign of Akbar and Jahangir and that Aurangzeb later reinstated this. Before I delve into the subject of Aurangzeb's jizya tax, or taxing the non-Muslims, it is worthwhile to point out that jizya is nothing more than a war tax which was collected only from able-bodied young non-Muslim male citizens living in a Muslim country who did not want to volunteer for the defense of the country. That is, no such tax was collected from non-Muslims who volunteered to defend the country. This tax was not collected from women, and neither from immature males nor from disabled or old male citizens. For payment of such taxes, it became incumbent upon the Muslim government to protect the life, property and wealth of its non-Muslim citizens. If for any reason the government failed to protect its citizens, especially during a war, the taxable amount was returned.
It should be pointed out here that zakat (2.5% of savings) and %u2018ushr (10% of agricultural products) were collected from all Muslims, who owned some wealth (beyond a certain minimum, called nisab). They also paid sadaqah, fitrah, and khums. None of these were collected from any non-Muslim. As a matter of fact, the per capita collection from Muslims was several fold that of non-Muslims. Further to Auranzeb's credit is his abolition of a lot of taxes, although this fact is not usually mentioned. In his book Mughal Administration, Sir Jadunath Sarkar, foremost historian on the Mughal dynasty, mentions that during Aurangzeb's reign in power, nearly sixty-five types of taxes were abolished, which resulted in a yearly revenue loss of fifty million rupees from the state treasury.
While some Hindu historians are retracting the lies, the textbooks and historic accounts in Western countries have yet to admit their error and set the record straight.
RE:Read The Truth
by alok kumar on Mar 12, 2007 08:55 AM Permalink
Come on, even Sikh texts confirm Aurangzeb's forceful conversions. Kashmir is all muslim because of him. Babu Nagendranath Banerjee's comment that India today would not have even 1/4th of Hindus is just so non-sense. While Aurangzeb's conversion was going on, there were many battles also going on, including Guru Gobind Singh in north and Shivaji in Maharashtra. What a joke that a bannerjee is getting more attention by a certain religion people than 1000 other Historians who after so much research and going through so many texts of that period concluded Aurangzeb's character. My brothers, please do not be sympathetic towards him. He is not suitable for that. Accept the reality rather than denying it.
RE:Read The Truth
by Secular Indian on Mar 12, 2007 04:06 AM Permalink
The Jaziyah argument cuts both ways, if as the author claims that it's a tax that non-Muslims have to pay for not joining the army, then that forces the poorer sections of society to convert or join the arm y therefore inflating the Hindu numbers in the army. This conclusively proves that the whole aim of Aurangzeb's re imposition of Jaziyah was win-win for him. Get the Hindus to convert or at least get them to fight other Hindus and convert them.
RE:Read The Truth
by JATIN HALDANKAR on Mar 12, 2007 12:05 AM Permalink
Keep trying :) ...multiple posting of same message will not change the truth of your Alamgir,The Fallen hero of Moghul dynasty.
RE:RE:Read The Truth
by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 12, 2007 12:10 AM Permalink
If try to spit on sky it will not diminish the greatness of sky. What happen with you think about that.
RE:RE:RE:RE:Read The Truth
by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 12, 2007 12:30 AM Permalink
You are deceiving youself and killing your generation with hatred. You people are biased, safronized, lost intelligence and bad conscience case. Take care of you and your generation. it is enough I think. Meet me tomarrow. thanks
RE:RE:RE:Read The Truth
by JATIN HALDANKAR on Mar 12, 2007 12:39 AM Permalink
Alamgir is SKY for you !!! not for us ...I don't consider murderer like him ..worth spitting ...
We should stand firm and say what is the truth. Do not please blood mongers they will not spare you. The best Indian are those who say the Truth and say it is black and it is white. Be brave India. The Safronized Hindus will be vanished. Always when light comes darkness go away. You stand firm definitely they will go trans-atlantic or Trans-Pacific. When ST/SC Dalits will come to power they fix them. I am not against all higher Castes, Brahmin or Rajputs. See Arjun Singh he brings Mandal Reservation and implemented. They know the graveness of the situation. You can understand they way they are talking. Only three things. Against Islam, Muslims, Pakistan and Bangladesh. The time has gone when encouraging hate against Muslims could unite Hindus. The phase has gone. The people knows their game. You read this article the setmind of the author is clear. Create hatred between Muslims and Hindus and speak bad against secular mind parties like congress and Marist party. I never depend on any party or any leader. I believe on honest work steadfast at the time needed and say what is right and what is wrong. When they can boost we can also boost. But people should be reasonable, practical and analytical and sincere. It is not the way that banking on such material which was rejected. Already many Hindu Great Scholars they spent their life for research and did their job. The outside he guy he doesnt know persian he did know what are the Farman of Aurangzeb. The man saying Farmans to Farhans. If any student has to work in this subject he must have to read this FARMANs which are the most authentic. After that they have to look other details. The many great Hindu Scholars did their studies. Collected all Farmans from India and collected other reports, how can these farmans remained untouched and Come-up in the period of BJP Government. How? The work of our Hindu Research Scholar can not be nullified. The people who talk rubbish they are just tadpoles of R.S.S. THE TERORRIST GANG. I do not care. When thousand muslims murdered by these guys if I am also slained I dont care.
RE:Stand frim to say a spade a spade Mr. Rahim
by Secular Indian on Mar 12, 2007 04:09 AM Permalink
Your claims of impartiality are hollow everything you've posted so far has come from Islamo-fascist propaganda websites. You have refused to use any critical judgment, you are the sort of guy it seems who provides the oxygen to the likes of Osama Bin Laden and Aurangzeb. With your tacit support monsters like them wouldn't exist.
RE:Stand frim to say a spade a spade Mr. Rahim
by chaitanya kumar on Mar 11, 2007 11:40 PM Permalink
you should know that it's the dalits and backward castes who make up most of the cadre in RSS.
RE:RE:Stand frim to say a spade a spade Mr. Rahim
by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 12, 2007 12:14 AM Permalink
What rank just volounteers. Just to use them as tools when the time come. Who are looking the business. Thanks to the Indian Government that funding this organization on all levels and running like semi-government organization.
RE:RE:RE:Stand frim to say a spade a spade Mr. Rahim
by Secular Indian on Mar 12, 2007 04:11 AM Permalink
Why would someone "volunteer" if they didn't believe in the cause ? Do you think before you decide to inflict your ignorance on the world.
RE:Stand frim to say a spade a spade Mr. Rahim
by alok kumar on Mar 12, 2007 09:02 AM Permalink
I agree that the fanatics will be vanished whether it is Hindus or Muslims...after all the fanatics end up loosing battles, just like Taliban did, Bin Laden did, who God knows is even alive or dead and Palestenians keep loosing their Jihad. I wish fanatics of Kashmir also dissapear soon. Not forgetting Narendra Modi and Bal Thakre. RSS and BJP, I dont think are that big of a culprit like Bin Laden. After all there is a difference between killing 5000 innocent people and demolishing a structure made up of bricks just to get the holy piece of land back.
RE:RE:Stand frim to say a spade a spade Mr. Rahim
by alok kumar on Mar 12, 2007 09:08 AM Permalink
Farooqui seems to work for Bin Laden...hand him over to Bush...else he will keep dreaming to massacre more people of religion other than Islam...
RE:one hitler not enough
by alok kumar on Mar 12, 2007 09:13 AM Permalink
No...I dont want Hitler as I love living in democracy. But, hey we dont want a Babar, Aurangzeb, Ram Vilas Paswan and Mulla Mulayam either...
It is a grim irony that the Mughal emperor who lent India the greatest geographical dimensions %u2013 from Tiruchirappalli in South India to Ghazni in the Northwest -- is today sought to be projected as the cruellest bigot among the Muslim rulers of India.
Emperor Aurangzeb is the prime victim of distortion of history in India. But just how the historian could be unjust to Aurangzeb becomes evident from, Ahad e Aalamgiri ke Darbari Akhbar, a compilation of accounts from Mughal Court Chronicles of that age. These Persian chronicles are preserved in archives in Jaipur, Calcutta and Royal Asiatic Society in London. Since Aurangzeb remained pitched in the Deccan for over 25 years (from 1680 to his death in 1707) in order to suppress Maratha rebels, a lot of interest has been shown in Maharashtra about the history of the period. Initially, Marathi historian and author Sethu Madhav Pagri translated these chronicles from Persian to Marathi at the behest of Maharashtra Government and they were published in three volumes. Now advocate Syed Shah Ghaziuddin of Osmanabad has come out with an Urdu translation in one volume. The chronicles highlights some interesting facets of Aurangzeb%u2019s personality and the affairs of his government, which were being conducted from wherever Aurangzeb was stationed with his huge garrison consisting of nearly two lakh persons.
From these accounts, far from being a bigot, Aurangzeb appears an extremely able administrator, a veteran warrior, a down-to-earth ruler and above all a very affectionate person. The accounts throw light on how he was conscious of minimizing losses to trade and crop from movement of his troops, the tight control he exercised over administration and how generosity was employed to woo the favour of people and their leaders as the Mughal army marched into the crevices of the Deccan. Particularly engaging are the accounts of his treatment of Shahuji, the young son of Sambhaji and grandson of Shivaji, the main challenger of Mughal rule in the Deccan. Sambhaji, as is well known, was killed by Aurangzeb for having given asylum to Aurangzeb%u2019s rebellious son Akbar and waging war against the Mughal rule. Shahuji was conferred with the title of %u2018Raja%u2019 and was given a stipend of Rs. 7,000. The extended families of Shivaji and his sons were stationed in Bahadurgarh, looked after by the Aurangzeb%u2019s administration. Shahuji was brought up as a prince and the emperor himself arranged his marriage with daugher of Bahadurji Jadhav, a Maratha feudal lord. The detailed accounts of the marriage are contained in the chronicle dated June 14, 1704. Even according to Marathi historian Dr. Kunte, this treatment of enemy%u2019s son by Aurangzeb is something of an enigma. More such accounts of several of Shivaji%u2019s sons and grandsons will surprise readers.
RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by chaitanya kumar on Mar 11, 2007 10:07 PM Permalink
each muslim ruler will be demonized. None will be spared. I am sure you are proud about Pakis naming their missiles as ghoris which are pointed against India. That is how you ragheads think.
RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 11, 2007 11:13 PM Permalink
The Kings are part of their history and our history. How they will take it is upto them. We have nothing to say about them. Let them do their business. We think about us. We worried about our space programme delayed for one day more.
RE:RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by chaitanya kumar on Mar 11, 2007 11:23 PM Permalink
moron, it's the non-muslims who work in the ISRO at every level. They will worry about the space program and moon. You worry about taking Islam to stone age with fatwas. You talk as if you represent a modern cult. It is bewildering to say the least. You should know that most of the inventions in science and organisation of cultures happened during tumultous times in history. It works both ways. People need a order to go on with their task and organised societies provide it the best. Not chaotic societies.
RE:RE:RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by chaitanya kumar on Mar 11, 2007 11:27 PM Permalink
does not mean i discount the efforts of people like Kalam. But they are rare and rarely appreciated by mainstream muslim community.
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by chaitanya kumar on Mar 12, 2007 12:01 AM Permalink
this coming from a guy who writes incoerent sentences.
RE:RE:RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by ramesh nair on Mar 12, 2007 08:37 AM Permalink
I am proud to be an Indian and a hindu, lets not repeat what history has done lets kill the hatred within us , be it hindus , muslims , sikhs , christians all are humans and religion we created lets not be divided over it No GOD will ever like it, lets work for a beautiful world lets get together and correct the mistakes committed by our forefathers ,
There are so many other problems to be disscused like famine , malnutrition , education , polution etc come lets be united and stand.
RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by JATIN HALDANKAR on Mar 11, 2007 11:12 PM Permalink
The magnimity was hogwash - petty politics on part of your AlamGir..After sambhaji's murder for religious reason..marathas were united and revolted against him..each maratha sardar were fighting the seperate war with moghul forces..it was difficult to fight war in terrain of maharastra without local support.. to earn the good will of local people in deccan..this was act of good will was political compulsion..Mr.Mike.. not a Magnamity...
RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by Secular Indian on Mar 12, 2007 04:18 AM Permalink
These were alliances of convenience (in fact Indians should take note what happens when they fight amongst themselves). Aurangzeb had made the titles hereditary and the Hindu Zamindars wanted to legitimise their rule. Tactically this was a smart move by Aurangzeb to get the Hindus rulers into his orbit by getting them onside and then sorting them out one by one, divide and rule. Jaswant Singh is a case in point, just after he died all temples in his kingdom were destroyed. Earlier the mansabdari system too was created to incorporate these "civilized" and settled centres of society, by Akbar, it was based on sem-meritocracy to enable non-muslims to rise to a position of some power. Aurangzeb simply used it as a divide and rule instrument.
RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by biz Narayan on Mar 12, 2007 04:44 PM Permalink
It is intresting that the slaughterers are appreciated. The jehadis are back !
One of the greatest charges against Aurangzeb is of the demolition of Vishwanath temple in Banaras (Varanasi). That was a fact, but Dr Pande unravelled the reason for it. 'While Aurangzeb was passing near Varanasi on his way to Bengal, the Hindu Rajas in his retinue requested that if the halt was made for a day, their Ranis may go to Varanasi, have a dip in the Ganges and pay their homage to Lord Vishwanath. Aurangzeb readily agreed.
'Army pickets were posted on the five mile route to Varanasi. The Ranis made journey on the palkis [palanquins]. They took their dip in the Ganges and went to the Vishwanath temple to pay their homage. After offering puja [worship] all the Ranis returned except one, the Maharani of Kutch. A thorough search was made of the temple precincts but the Rani was to be found nowhere.
'When Aurangzeb came to know of this, he was very much enraged. He sent his senior officers to search for the Rani. Ultimately they found that statue of Ganesh [the elephant-headed god which was fixed in the wall was a moveable one. When the statue was moved, they saw a flight of stairs that led to the basement. To their horror they found the missing Rani dishonoured and crying deprived of all her ornaments. The basement was just beneath Lord Vishwanath's seat.'
RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by JATIN HALDANKAR on Mar 11, 2007 09:47 PM Permalink
Stop your Propaganda Mr.Mike ,your argument has aleady being countered/answered in your earlier messages by Secular Indian. give some new arguement..if you dont have any.. than please gracefully retreat...
RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by Mike Gandhi on Mar 11, 2007 09:57 PM Permalink
MY ONE MESSAGE OF TRUTH IS HEAVIEST ON MILLIONS OF ARGUMENTS POSTED BY YOU AND FASCIST GANG'S
RE:RE:RE:LIES AGAINST EMPEROR AURANGZEB
by chaitanya kumar on Mar 11, 2007 10:04 PM Permalink
worry about your mental state. your posts are express inanity and you need treatment. It's not about "truth" or any such thing. It just makes you a complete idiot if you post the same thing several times. Maybe that is what you are worth.
