India's foreign policy and energy security should not be compromised. We should not live in luxury at the mercy or goodwill of others. Why cant India itself produce nuclear techonoly and y cant we buy the technology from the old Russian friends
RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:16 PM Permalink
ERR...MOST OF YOUR TOP SCIENTSTS ARE WORKING FOR AMERICA. EG. MR. S.CHANDRASEKHAR, MR. H.G.KHORANA
RUSSIA IS FINISHED ECONOMICALLY AND DEPENDS ON THE USA, EUROPE & JAPAN FOR INVESTMENTS TO KEEP ITS ECONOMY AFLOAT. AND NO ONE GETS ANY USEFUL BENEFITS FROM CHINA - JUST A HUGE LOAD OF CHEAP PLASTIC TOYS DUMPED IN THE MARKET PLUS RISK OF SNATCHING OF TERRITORY SUCH AS TIBET WHENEVER POSSIBLE.
RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Amrit Singh on Aug 20, 2007 11:25 PM Permalink
Brother, you are too ignorant about the state of Russian economy rite now. It has a trade surplus. India does not have. its the reverse. It the europe which is dependenet on Russian gas and oil. Russia is an energy superpower rite now and a trusted friend. We should go with them. Wikipedia, has called Russia an energy Superpower and not USA. Wikipedia is an american site
RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:30 PM Permalink
They are selling to the highest bidder now. Its not the USSR that gave subsidized rtes to allies. Do you thnk you will be able to pay higher rates thatn the Europeans ?
RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Amrit Singh on Aug 20, 2007 11:36 PM Permalink
u did not explain me how russia is getting ruined economically. Russia still give energy at a lower price to its allies than the countries who are note very close to it. Belarus and Ukraine even after a bit of troubled times are still paying half the international price. Remember sir, Indians will have to build a relationshio with US. It already there with Russia. Plus we have foreign policy independence and cheaper Russian energy
RE:RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:45 PM Permalink
they were almost bankrupt after the fall of the USSR. rather luckily for them the price of oil has increased 4x recently, so they are earning lots now.
RE:RE:RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Amrit Singh on Aug 20, 2007 11:51 PM Permalink
they were almost bankrupt in the late 1990s. Russia had a severe economic crisis in 1998. If you can give me your email i can send you somehting. About Russias current status. Its by an apolitical American think tank. But please dont fool other ignorant people by saying that Russia is finished economically.
RE:RE:RE:RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:52 PM Permalink
they were almost bankrupt after the fall of the USSR. rather luckily for them the price of oil has increased 4x recently, so they are earning lots now.
RE:we should aim at energy independence and indigenous technology
by Amrit Singh on Aug 20, 2007 11:59 PM Permalink
its strictly the business with the US also. Freebies were the charaterstics of USSR. But not Russia. Freebies were given by USA also to its allies. It was a cold war game by superpowers. The american economy may fall one day owing to its massive defense spending 500 billion dollars. the price of the same technology in russia is four to five times lower that the US. Even america is also buying nuclear fuel from Russia's dismantled old nuclear warheads. I have read somewhere that it lights 10% america. You know y because that high grade warhead fuel is much cheaper than their own fuel. so even if its strictly business India will benefit. The deal will cost us 150 billion dollars. It will cost much lesser with Russia plus the gains of foreign policy independence.
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Lalatendu Deo on Aug 20, 2007 11:00 PM Permalink
That is in theory. It is actually Number One Crooked Undemocratic, Self-Praising Country who has no respect for others. And their interest is above any thing else.
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Lalatendu Deo on Aug 20, 2007 11:55 PM Permalink
Your interpretation is wrong of what I am intending to tell. Perhaps I was not very much clear in what I wanted to say. I am talking about US Government and not Individual Americans.
And just because I use a computer does that mean that I should pray them as God? Do You?
And do you mean that India is Un-Secular, Un-Democratic, in comparison to US? And it definitely is not true. I think we all must have self respect. And we will gain if we have this always.
I must say that US Policies are undemocratic, self supporting and worst of kind, for the rest of the world. And it is just because they are Super Power, no one can show a finger towards them. And this is definitely undemocratic.
RE:RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Lalatendu Deo on Aug 21, 2007 12:09 AM Permalink
But all these you are talking about is true in host of other countries. And we in India follow it religiously as a country. Tell me as to how they are better then us as a country. At least we as a country do not show our muscle power around. Not even to our neighbours. So are we inferior to the US?
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Raj K on Aug 20, 2007 11:06 PM Permalink
correct. They always follow double standard. which makes very us suspicious..
They could have solved middle east problems in matter of days.. but are they doing anything..
RE:RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:12 PM Permalink
Russia is the largest seller of arms to both India & China who are still officially at war.
Anywayz, the 123 is defintely better than the 12345 point agreement the old P.M. Jawarrhal Nehroo signed with the Chinese in 1962 and got stabbed in the back and a lot of territory snatched away ! ha ha ha ha.......
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:01 PM Permalink
America is 98% Christian country, but you can say anything against Christianity without getting punished. Most of the worst blasphemy against Christinaity are made in America. eg. Da Vinci Code.
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Amrit Singh on Aug 20, 2007 11:04 PM Permalink
Ya quite right. U r rite quite rite in this matter. No matter they dont follow the same principles in term of their foreign policy. They have supported and are supporting many un democratic countries
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Lalatendu Deo on Aug 21, 2007 12:36 AM Permalink
Those Bananas are the creation of the US. And the US is the strongest supporter of these, both overtly and covertly, both vocally and militarily. We have seen this over several decades. Be it Americas, Be it Africa, Be it Asia. They want to rule over the entire world. In a Crooked way.
Is this the democracy you are talking about Micky?
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Lalatendu Deo on Aug 21, 2007 12:31 AM Permalink
Those Bananas are the creation of the US. And the US is the strongest supporter of these, both overtly and covertly, both vocally and militarily. We have seen this over several decades. Be it Americas, Be it Africa, Be it Asia. They want to rule over the entire world. In a Crooked way.
Is this the democracy you are talking about Micky?
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Raj K on Aug 20, 2007 11:29 PM Permalink
One day they can apply the same laws to India.
US is not democrazy.. That is in theory. It is actually Number One Crooked Undemocratic, Self-Praising Country who has no respect for others. And their interest is above any thing else.
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Raj K on Aug 20, 2007 11:55 PM Permalink
if all can coexist in USA without any ethnic problem what the hell we are worried..
They are surely emulate the model thoughout the world.
RE:RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Lalatendu Deo on Aug 21, 2007 12:00 AM Permalink
Micky, please tell me as to how many with Indian origin can go scot free telling that in public? Has anybody ever done that?
The Left parties, primarily the CPI (there was no CPI-M then which was formed many years later as a breakaway group from the CPI) had a dubious & dishonourable role to play during India's struggle to attain Independence. At least two of their prominent leaders viz., Jyoti Basu & Prakash Karat voluntarily went to the U.K. to pursue their higher education. The assets & landed properties of some of their leaders, for example Basu, puts him right up with the capitalists. When they first came to power in W. Bengal they systematically debilitated & uprooted scores of businesses & industries who were operating from that state. This caused an immense flight of capital & jobs from which the state could never quite recover. Basu, during his tenure as Chief Minister, W.B. used to go to the U.S. / U.K. every year during summer ostensibly for his vacation & to attract foreign investments. Many stories abound about what the real objectives of his trips used to be. It is a shame that such people & parties who rightfully should be rounded up under TADA, put behind bars with the key to the cell being thrown away should be voted to power in at least 2 states with one of them having been ruled by them, uninterrupted, for over 30 years. The Congress should be ashamed that they are willing to be bedfellows with people & parties who have consistently & blatantly acted against the national interest. The Congress party should feel ashamed that in their quest to cling on to power they have the LEFT a
RE:USA is a GENUINE Secular Democracy
by Mikkey Moouse on Aug 20, 2007 11:01 PM Permalink
America is 98% Christian country, but you can say anything against Christianity without getting punished. Most of the worst blasphemy against Christinaity are made in America. eg. Da Vinci Code.
If nuclear energy is so cheap and clean why USA not build a single nuclear plant for the last 30 years.
If it is so efficient, they would be better off than stealing Iraq oil.
But there are even bigger problems both the countries and politcians don't talk. Closing a down a nuclear power plant is more costler than buliding one.
If the nuclear power is good as the Congerss is pointing, the world will be full of nuclear power plants.
Nuclear energy is surly having it own demerits.
We need Think twice before going for an outdated technology.
If we scrap the deal I don't feel that USA is going to cut of, given the commercial interset they have in mind, they will try to push their agenda.
Worries me is India has to vote against IRAN in IAEA voting, that is pure bullying. Who want a partner like that.
They won't treat us equal. or not even as par with Saudi Arabia, the biggest rough nation, protected by them.
Are they worried?.Surely. because our middle class population is bigger than the american population. and our energy needs will be going fast.
As they always do monopolise the world resources by all means for only American consumption.
what is their biggest spending.MILITARY n WAR... no good for humanity. How many people they killed during last centurry alone.
And they want us to make beleive that how good they are.
And now how dare they are asking us to not think of Bomb..
RE:Problem with Nuclear Energy
by Niranjan Limaye on Aug 20, 2007 10:46 PM Permalink
If AMericans are stupid then why aint we so smart enough to exploit what we need from them? You raised valid questions, but I think India reserves its right to express opinion on Iran. Also to operationalize this deal, we have to convince IAEA and other groups, at the same time US political round should remain the same (Pro-Indian for the deal) thus there is a long way to go. Lets not commit something, if its going to cancel then let blame go on other country than India.
CHINA HAS WANGLED MOST FAVORED NATION TRADING STATUS WITH USA & EUROPE BUT WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA WITH BAD RELATIONS WITH AMERICA & EUROPE SO THAT THE ECONOMY WILL BE SEVERLY DAMAGED.
ALL THOSE WHO TRIFLE WITH AMERICA WILL INHABIT MUD-HUTS LIKE CUBA, SYRIA, LIBYA, SUDAN, SOMALIA, NORTH KOREA.
GET READY TO GIVE UP YOUR AMERICAN INVENTED COMPUTER, INTERNET & OPERATING SYSTEM AND USE A CHALK & SLATE.
Anywayz, the 123 is defintely better than the 12345 point agreement the old P.M. Jawarrhal Nehroo signed with the Chinese in 1962 and got stabbed in the back and a lot of territory snatched away ! ha ha ha ha.......
Even though we accept all concerns of Left, extreme left, swayed away to left and deep left. We should understand US psychology. US is ultimately consumer hub. Even if we conduct nuclear test tomorrow, US will not revoke and dissolve the deal, as they are going to earn in millions by selling uranium and technology to India. Also tieing up with India is their strategical need than India. Even if they cancel the deal and withdraw all the equipment , stop supply , impose restrictions and blah blah blah, Indian scientists would be smart enough to master the technology in short period of time. Also we will always have another country ready to sell uramium to us. So its all bull shit of Lefts.
Lets trust ability of Indian scientists if not lefts.
RE:communism, capitalism and practicalism
by Niranjan Limaye on Aug 20, 2007 10:52 PM Permalink
Inspite of that we have Mr. Kakodkar, Mr. Mashelkar and many more . So going by the thumb rule , it is even better to have Indian scientist in US coz this will help to speed up the knowledge transfer process and add some emotional tie up too.
i have some questions to the illustrious left leaders (in particular to the karat family):
1. do they mean the 60 odd members of the left party as the majority of the parliament since they almost consider the opposition nda as -------? 2. if this majority includes the nda parliamentarians, why the hell they shy away from the statements emanating from sane quarters of nda?
be practical enough. atleast shri. a.v baradhan was candid enough to admit in camera that they have not been able to influence any govt. in as effective way as they are doing now. this is also very difficult to believe because it is a known fact that in any matters left do raise objections which are conveniently swept under the carpet and the upa (read congress) gets its way, what ever the issue.
so dear (left) parliamentarians, do not take we people for a ride.
The India Left and the Congress opposed India's nuclear detonation conducted by the NDA Govt in the past. Because the Left feared that India would become a deterrent to China's nuclear might. Now the Left is unhappy because India won't be able to test under the Deal or Hyde Act. Left's position is contradictory. But no. They have consistently lobbied for China and Pakistan. True the Deal is on unequal terms for India. True had the Deal been signed by the NDA, the Congress would have bayed for the BJp's blood in the name of the country's sell-out. This is Indian politics. Common masses have no choice but to stick with such nonsense. The country was mortagaged to the Soviets in the past. Now it is the US turn. Now let's be with Mr.Hyde than be with Dr.Jekyll
Dear Friends I seen one comment and i seriously liked it and the comment was "For the God sake dont give opinion without Knowledge".Everyone is comming here with opinion for and against the deal.If you guys dont know just one clause and its interpretation in 123 Agreement can change the whole meaning of the deal.Secondly while no one can deny the urgent need of energy in a populous country like us, we should also keep in mind that we should not enter in a deal that compromise our soverignity in terms of Nuclear tests in future.We are a growing economy with a rapid pace and we need energy more than anything at present.But lets be clear about the deal, so that any wrong deal does not affect our future genereations and our country.Once deal materialises, and later it scarps at some point because of Nuke test of india, the economic losses may be irreversible.Please dear all keep it in mind and think 1000 times before commenting such a sensitive issue.I think setup of a commettee and analysis of the most concerning clause i.e. "Hyde Act" will only do good and put us in position to take the best informed decision.
RE:Nuke Deal
by Niranjan Limaye on Aug 20, 2007 10:33 PM Permalink
That one clause and its sub-clause says situation at that time will be judged and discussed and president of united states at that time will determine the need to revoke the deal. This is very diplomatic and beurocratic which dumb and dumbers like muggers like communist will never understand. Afterall its a deal between 2 countries , hence they would like to keep certain clauses open-ended for future purpose. If US is coming forward and breaking the rule, why worms are tickling in communist ass?
Anywayz, the 123 is defintely better than the 12345 point agreement the old P.M. Jawarrhal Nehroo signed with the Chinese in 1962 and got stabbed in the back and a lot of territory snatched away ! ha ha ha ha.......
RE:Nuke Deal
by ravikumar sivaramakrishnan on Aug 20, 2007 10:38 PM Permalink
Dear friend Does china being NPT signatory nation not involved in nuclear testing,Selling Technology, knowhow to pakistan? What US had done to China? Let us also grow beyond China and that time no such silly worries will come.
RE:Nuke Deal
by raghu tiwari on Aug 20, 2007 10:48 PM Permalink
Hi Ravi You are right that China has did a lot of deviations and US is not in a position to exercise its power on China.Neither i am aware what a country has to bear with if being a NPT signatory it voilates its terms and conditions. But i think China is more reliable on its own Nuclear Fuel than India, though i have no clear statistics about it. So putting a restriction on India will hurt it far more than it will to China i suppose.
RE:Nuke Deal
by Amrit Singh on Aug 20, 2007 10:29 PM Permalink
Quite true. India's foreign policy and energy security should not be compromised. We should not live in luxury at the mercy or goodwill of others. Why cant India itself produce nuclear techonoly and y cant we buy the technology from the old Russian friends
You are absolutely right that India should be self relient in Nuke technology and your suggestion to rely on Russia is also good.But as for as India is concerned, Nuclear Technology issue can be solved i hope in india itself by our talented scientists, but we struck about Nuclear Fuel like Uranium , Plutonium etc. If i am right there are almost 45 countries who export these substances but they work under strict International rules and hence even if India develops the technology indegeniously, it has to rely on these countries for the fuel.So there is a sort of dependency for the fuel even if one has technology.
RE:RE:Nuke Deal
by raghu tiwari on Aug 20, 2007 11:01 PM Permalink
Hi Mikkey Moouse Thanks for the detail and i dont want to guess your nationality.But just being rational, i can say it does not matter who and how many indian scientists are workin in USA, still we have a talented and reliable pool of scientists who can do wonders and all indians have full faith in them. Remember the Nuke test at the time of AB Vajpayee Govt., US always boasted about capacity of its sattelites, and they could measure nothing about indian Nuke test. Just one example of talent of Indian scientists.
RE:RE:Nuke Deal
by Niranjan Limaye on Aug 20, 2007 10:48 PM Permalink
Good argument raghu, but in-case of failure of this deal it will open doors to these other sellers (remaining 44 countries). US can not play its diplomatic card with every country. Hence this deal is beneficial in either ways.
