Dear Purohit, generally I hate to ask anyone his caste, but here I am interested of yours if you dont mind; as I am really confused with you, are you Buddha? How come your name has Purohit and Sharma, both are Brahmin surnames?
I frankly and politely say that I really dont understand your point in your recent reply to me.
Yes, I am from Maharastra, Pune. I will try to answer you tonight as I am going out now.
It will be interesting to know where are you from. and what are you doing currently?
RE:will reply soon
by Purohit Sharma on Apr 28, 2007 07:17 PM Permalink
Dear Yogesh, I am a Bramin from Ranchi.basically I am a businessman doing business at Dhurwa,Chakradharpur,and Gaya.It is high time we Brahmins should have a common thinking. Yours, Purohit.
RE:will reply soon
by r patil on Apr 28, 2007 08:06 PM Permalink
If you are pro-reservation for obc
1) because you believe in correcting past injustice wheater you are from "upper cast" or "lower cast" or "obc"or non hindus .Can you please tell us why or constitution which is written by Ambedkar supports and gives rights & extra pervileges for minorities .When very these minorities ruled majority with iron hand destroyed our temples,universities,killed and burned hindus alive for not converting,made us slaves and deoported so many of them to central asia where most of them lost lives in hindu kush area or were sold in slavery. If you know anything about Roma people formaly called as gypsis you will cry your heart for them.
2)If past grevence is not and issue with you'll but the present one.Then why you same people oppose removing creamy layer from getting benefit.
If their is any third category let me know if not please justify your stand.
Dear Dinesh, I really liked your openness that you agreed that you can not answer my questions. I generally dont take part in debate as I like to have people with open mind to have debate rather discussion with them. Initially I feel that you are somewhat adamant but afterwards open and having good knowledge. So I continued discussion. As you said there are so-called experts to answer my questions, but we can easily find out what knowledge they have by observing the current situation of our country. So I think it is hopeless to have hope from our politicians and experts. And they can not answer me as they will have to change their policy then. Ultimately those are we young generation who have to find out right solution. I hope you have understood now that it is easy to comment on anything, but difficult to find out perfect solution.
By the way it had been nice time to discuss with you. I really knew some more things like UPSC interviews and all. I would be happier had you aggried openly in straight words that current system of reservation has many faults and it is doing injustice to open category people. Not the least, you aggried that current policy makers are also humans and we cant expect them right always. It gave me my answer.
By the way what are you doing currently for backward classes and especially those not from your own community?
At least such discussions help to come out steam of anger and hatefullness that is in the mind of everybody in todays era.
Dear Purohit Sharma, First I appreciate your stand on the side of reservation though you are a Brahmin as you mentioned earlied.
But Purohit, how do you blame Brahmins for their poverty as they had monopoly in education? You said that they had monopoly so they lost the will to learn and they become poor. Where you have drawn this theory from?
My friend, as per the Hindu customs and traditions every cast has specific to do. Before that, I will like to tell you some more things. It is general wish of every person to see his childern follow his own path. Every person works hard to succeed in his own bussiness and develops some distinguished characters, ideas while establishing in his bussiness. He wants to teach all his knowledge to his children, hand over his business and love to see his children successing in the same profession. Even today, advocate wants his son to be advocate, doctor a doctor, politician a politician and businessman a business, so on. This is normal human attitude and common psychology. The same reflected in the past in Hindu culture. Over thousand years it has taken a form of caste. Caste is a English word original word is 'jat' and really it is 'dnyati'. Dnyati means one 'knows'what. Your dnyati is Brahmin means you know the knowledge of Brahmin and so on. Now unfortunately as no one had been ready to pass his knowledge to one from different caste, everybody is restricted to his own 'dnyati' or caste and was restricted from pursueing different knowledge stream i.e. caste. Now, again all are human beings. Every one is completely a new person having his own desire, skill. It is obvious that every brahmin can not be very intelligent neither necessary to have interest in studying. But every brahmin was expected to study only and also without making money. Do you know Dronacharya was royal teacher and priest but didnt use to have milk to give his son Ashwatthama. Actually, such Brahmins or RUSHIS were studing in jungles remote from people and trying to find out principles of universe, astronomy, economics, medicine etc etc and were expected to serve the population and guide people without considering benefit or money. Generally all these rushis/brahmins used to be very poor. But even kings used to come to rushis/brahmins to get advice in case of problems. So, all the other people were expected to show utmost respect for such Brahmins. On the other hand, all other casts are professional like chamar making goods of leather, potmaker, goldsmith of gold. We didnt have formal education system, but children used to get knowledge/education in their own home by their parents. As all these casts were profession based, they used get good money. Even dombari and such casts were entertainer of that time and used to make good money. So there is no point in asking why brahmins remain poor eventhough they enjoyed educational monopoly for centuries. Here you are ignoring the education that other caste people used to get about their own profession in their own home.
Now, as period changed and especially after British envision, formal education system became important. Traditional businesses were all ruined. Formal school-book education became necessary to survive. Here, making money became the primary aim of education. Even today I have been seeing many well educated brahmins not making so much money and they consider making good money as bad thing.
You attacked Manu badly, but do you know that he was not brahmin by birth? There may be arguments about his literature, yet he has been considered as the first sociologist, one who studies society and make theory how it should be, in the world and we should be proud of it. When the civilization was rare in the most part of the world and tribal culture in the whole world didint know even the civilization, Manu wrote theories about civilization and India was almost civilized. That time Indian or Hindu culture included current Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Turkstan,Shrilanka. This is ancient civilazation. You will get more information about this if you study anthropology, ancient civilazation, middle age bharat (madhyayugin history). If we have problems with Manu, lets simply discard his theory, it is so simple. But you should not blame one whole community for that. You have mentioned Dr Ambedkar and Bhagwan Buddha as great legends. I also have utmost respect for these both. But we have ammended constitution many time, as per my knowledge more than 80 times, so will you blame Dr Ambedkar? Bhagwan Buddha criticised idol worshiping and his work actually started because of extreme idol worshiping at that time and rituals and all. But do know the tragedy of Buddha, the largest idols and largest in numbers are idols of Buddha all over the world. So will you blame Buddha? It is not the fault of people either. People have made idols of Mahavir, Jesus; even Muslims need the photo of musjid. Just try to understand the psychology and behaviour of human being. It is very easy to blame Brahmins or target pariticular caste or community but difficult to study all these things and when we find out the truth, it is even more difficult to digest it.
RE:Do know Hinduism rightly
by Purohit Sharma on Apr 28, 2007 05:23 PM Permalink
I presume you are Maharashtra counterpart.I agree about Sri Budha completely.By propogating Budhism we can do away the caste system completely.Dalits and OBCs also will like that.Let us join hands in doing that.Join with the Brahmins of all states to make a large movement.We will tell them to study hard to get benefit from the reservation.We can not give it till the end of the world...25 years is OK.We can give as per the percentage of population for 25 years...then stop it altogether.Manu has pronounced so many nonsenses which the presnt day Dalits understands readily,which is very dangerous for us.Our fascist organisation try to devide Muslims and Avarnas.But the current Aryavartha Politics is making them under a firm solidarity.So we have to take their politics to stay ahead.That is my well considered idea.What you think?
hi yogesh,by triviality i meant the creamy layer issue,it is trivial compared to the larger issue at hand. yogesh,your detailed questions are beyond my range. please check out this link and scroll down,u ll find the heading as MANDAL II DEBATE MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS.
Hi Dinesh, I have gone through all the web pages that you have mentioned. I also read the post you have written yesterday about Maratha dynasty and Bhotmange etc, but I couldnt figure out what you want to point out exactly. Also as you say that I am writing repeatedly 'trivial' things, I dont understand what is so trivial about it? So far I am just trying to answer your points.
Our discussion is about what should be the basis of reservation, how much it should be, most important whether we dont have any other way to solve problem apart from reservation, what we are actually achieving by the reservation based on cast, is the current system right in its way? We have to answer these questions.
Ok, as per the ncbc OBC list Dhangar and Gosavi are included in OBC category. Do you know that they are in the NT category along with Vanjari in Maharashtra? I dont know about other casts in NT.But surely then, casts in the OBCs are reduced, at least in Maharashtra, yet OBC has 27% separate reservation. It means that reservation has increased than it actually deserves. You got it?
In ncbc, the purpose of reservation is given as "social upliftment". Now we have to define what is social upliftment and what is "social backwardness"? Also whether current reservation will solve this social backwardness?
If there is reservation based on casts in the education and job to solve the problems of "social & educational backwardness"; dont you think that to better the condition of poor (economically backward), they (poor) need education in todays era and so reservation, as poor can't compete with well-doing in having the resources. Here is where the said objective of NCBC is at its own fault. We should not take it for granted that PM, President, Court or ncbc are always right.
In case of reservation, well-to-do peoples are enjoying the benefits of reservation alongside socially, educationally and economically backward people of their own cast as there is no creamy layer, and whereever it is present it is not implemented rightly. Thus the reserved category people are doing injustice to their own people.
See I have one solution if you insist for reservation based on cast. Calculate the proportion of each and every cast and community (including brahmin and upper casts) and reserve the seats for each cast upto 50% of their proportion. Obviously the total reservation will be 50% and remaining 50% will be open for all casts, may be brahmin of dalit. Thus 50% seats will be cast based and 50% will be merit based. So none of the cast will be unhappy. Let me explain it in more detail. Suppose the whole country is constituted with 15% muslims, 5% Christian, 15% Brahmins, 20 % Maraths, 15% Dalits and 30% OBCs (we have to calculate each cast which will aggrevate cast differentiation, but keep it aside) totaling 100%. Now reserve seats like 7.5% for muslims, 2.5% for christans, 7.5% brahmins, 10% marathas, 7.5% dalits and 15% OBC totaling 50% !! So each society will have its own representation and still we have 50% remaining seats purely for merit basis. How do you feel this? No one will get angry either!!! But remember the risk of dividing population into casts.
Whenever we ask you about creamy layer or how much should be the total reservation and should it be based on casts, you either ask us to see NCBC or currently you said that no one is perfect and we have to wait till we find out the perfect solution (in your Maratha dynasty-Bhotmange writing). Why dont you openly admit in straight words that the current system has faults and these should be erradicated; instead of saying in round words that no one is perfect?
Actually I openly object and oppose the current objective of NCBC which states that it is for "social and educational" purpose and not economical. Dr Ambedkar's basic idea bahind the reservation was that competition can always be in the equals and inequals can not fight in the open environment, the other example is the subsidy given by every country to its home bussinesses to protect them. How you imagine the competition between ecomomically backward in any cast with the well-to-do in any cast as equal? In case of reserved classes, it is more difficult.
Once again, we are not here to take granted ncbc or other constitutional body as right. But we are discussing whether all these things are right? Or what all these should be? Even our constition is amended many time (as per my information more than 80 times in 60 years).
this webpage wil clear all the doubts of everybody. reservation is implemented to uplift the socially and educationally backward classes.it is not for the economically baclward classes.there are other programmes to remove poverty.a person who may be rich is not necessarily socially or educationally forward. that is the problem being addressed here.bear in mind that the obcs constitute 500 million people.
RE:BASIS
by bharat on Apr 28, 2007 11:13 AM Permalink
do you have data regarding the number of obcs (500 mill). does Indian census give obc & general data. i could not find in ther website.
see this webpage and the website.the norms have been evolved.they will be implemented.but u r focussing on the trivial things neglecting the major revolutionary changes occurring in society due to the initiatives of the government.creamy layer will be excluded,but not now.
As you are non-brahmin but still supporting brahmin's stand I really appreciate your non-biased views. I hope Dinesh Kumar will understand these things. I hope he will also think beyond cast.
I observed that Purohit Sharma, though being a Brahmin, is on the side of reservation. I appreciate that. There are many examples who are from Brahmin or upper cast but try to help backward class and take stand on their side. But there are almost none from backward class who understands upper cast's problem and is willing to solve those. Pt Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi, Savarkar, Mahatma Phule tried to help backwards. But todays Mayawati, Sharad Yadav, Kanshiram, Laluprasad never seem to think beyond their own cast and of the whole society as a countly. We remember Dr Ambedkar as a constitution writer but forget that it was Pt Nehru who thought beyond any cast and gave opportunity to Dr Ambedkar to write constitution. Lets hope our backwardclass and OBC friends will start thinking beyond their casts.
Also traditionally, Brahmins and uppercast have accepted extraordinary people from other casts and gave them status of God. Valmiki was not Brahmin. It will be interesting to know you that Manu was not Brahmin by birth!
Also about OBCs, today OBC includes many casts that are traditionally in business like Teli, Vani which used to fetch good money. But, as today education has got prime importance, everybody wants education. And here struggle begins.
In the middle age (madhya ugin) bharat, every cast has suffered because of the Hindu customs, even Brahmins, as every Brahmin was supposed to study only. Every brahmin could not be very scholar but he was inhibited to do any other work. I think that's why in old Pauranik stories it is always stated that "once upon a time there was poor brahmin chap" !!! In other aspects also they have suffered. We could not forgot what Saint Dnyaneshwar and his father suffered. Also Lokmanya Bal Tilak had to undergo 'shuddhi' after his come back from Britain. If we think deeply and try to find out the root cause, it will reveal many interesting sociological aspects but it will be quite lengthy to write all here, so later on about it. So instead of fighting between casts, we have to fight against wrong Hindu customs like inhibition to ladies or Dalits from entering the temples, I think that will rightly bring social upliftment that our friend Dinesh Kumar expects. Reservation will not solve the basic problems. Even we have started giving 'vedic' education to Dalits and started making them Pujaris in temple. Recently, we arranged "maujibandhan" (offering sacred thread ceremony that traditionally only Brahmins used to wear) for children of all casts in Pune. This is better than fighting or riots or strike!
