Well for now I am amidst sea, It is pleasent 22 out here, on this part of world. Will be back home after another 2 weeks.
BBC says, today Delhi is 7 Deg C higher than average temperature expected during this time of the year. That is a lot more higher temperature. It will hit agriculture / Power requirement will go high.
POOR man of all caste will be hit hard. One can survive harsh winter but harsh summer is killing.
Global warming will not care about reservation /caste / or Religion. it will hit us all with same ferocity. India will be worst affected.
Are our news channel concerned. Are our Politicians concerned. I do not see much concern on the web.
It is no vote bank politics. It is nature paying back as we have spoiled our our atmosphere. It seems Moscow is happy about less harsh winter but Australia is having worst draught in the century. US is yet to feel the pinch.
Bangladesh will be more affected if Indian penensuela has harsh summer or strong rains ( both ways)
1)In 1969, 14 Indianb banks were nationalised. that means private sector was paid money to buy these banks. My question>> if Govt of India has money to buy bank than why not create new ones and let them compete with these private ones. unless you wanted taxpayer money to go into private hands and get some of it back to fund elections. While alleging that private sector banks were not doing what they were supposed to do?? Well like learned Balbir in King Akbar's Darbar, why not create a new line bigger than old one and make old one look smaller and follow your Social Goals. who in private sector was stopping Mighty GOVT of India with its tax payer money.
End result >> Govt won by handsome margin and poor man thought nationalisation was the only way to help him and GOI did a great job. Now we have Foreign banks in India and no more Indian private sector banks worth mentioning on a global scale, as they were nipped in the bud.
2) There was a time third rate cloth was made in Govt nationalised textile corporations of India controlled mills. My take >> It took late Sh. Dhirubhai Ambani to show that you can produce world class textile and it can be done in India and Indians can do it, that too by not taking money from Govt of india but public (SC/ST/Upperclass_ all could invest)
Remember late Shri Dhirubhai Ambani was not Harvard educated creamy layer upper caste exploiting SC/ST. He brought Cheer to all Indians. Indian politiciatians could have nurtured more such talented persons.
3) In perhaps 1973 India kicked out IBM / Bechtel and started Computer maintenece corporation of India and Engineers India limited with the Indian staff left out after nationalisation of IBM & EIL. If India could pay money to IBM & Bechtel to leave its India asset why cant Indian Govt start new Companies which competed with them On Indian soil. This would have created more jobs and more competition. By the way where is CMC now and where is EIL in Comparison to IBM & Bechtel
Reliance refinery >> Worlds largest grass root refinery, detailed engineering was done by Bechtel and not EIL.
EIL has to be content with IOC orders and even private sector L&T is doing better job.
India is nowhere in computer hardware, what is stopping India. It will create tremendous jobs for all.
4) Indian govt pumped lot of money into Cement corporation of India. Now when Indian Infrastructure needs Cement, where is CCI. Why it could not Grow.
5) Which new Refinery Indian politicians are planning to bring in Govt sector to create new jobs.
6)Allow foreign universities to set shop in India as is in CHINA & Singapore, than who need to send children to US.who will be asking for reservation than.
7)Worlds best GE has its 2nd R&D unit, outside US, which is in Banglore, where are our politiciatins sleeping when we know 2500 Phd's are doing world class work in that centre and even MIT US sends its MTech students here for summer training. Why cant our Indian political big wigs create job for this 2500 strong talent pool
Patents filed by them will be property of GE not India.
8) Similar job has been repeated by SHELL in India in Banglore. IBM is also going great. it will be another talent pool of Indians and they will also support at Global level.
Gentleman our learned politicaians are after votes by creating cheap gimmicks, if they create Industry and educational institutes than NO one will crib about Reservation. Everyone will have education as well as jobs. Everyone will move up the chain. No one is stopping any one. Mr Dinesh to me writing on the wall was clear when I left ONGC in 1985. Do not give me figures and try to justify. There was time when I used to stand in a queue for 2 kg sugar and some rice as govt had controlled even that. If we have plenty, do you think any one will cry against RESERVATION.
RE:How Massive industrilisation KILLS the call for reservation.But than how politicians will get votes
by kali das on Sep 27, 2007 09:40 PM Permalink
Ashok, If we have plenty, there will not be any fight, Agree. But right now We have limited resorces, What is solution for that. How to ditribute that resources? Think about solution about today's situation.
RE:hi rpatil
by rumba cardi on Sep 23, 2007 03:18 PM Permalink
got an accident a year before & got foot enjuiry & was operated by upper class doctor 7 still not able to walk as a negligence on a doctors part as he does not perform his operation well , & bill was in thousands ,so what is bad if resevation is being nade compulsory as upper caste doctorrs is also doing negligence on his part,now i believe that reservation is not a bad idea
Burden of proof Lastly, many people, when confronted with new information that the creamy layer criterion is already there, or with data on population and reservation percentages, don't even seem to bat an eye. Probably they are simply against reservation, period (though they may not say so). But there are those who are genuinely interested in debate, and want to be convinced about the effectiveness of reservation before it is implemented. If it is shown that "a large number of OBCs and dalits are still left out of the system", they say "reservation has not made any difference".
And if it is shown that many people have actually benefited from reservation system, the question is "then why do we need reservations?". The point is both statements can be true, and both conclusions invalid. It could just be that the initial gap is so bad that while reservations have been able to make some dent, they are still needed to make the system more equitable. One can go back and forth on this, and it depends on who has a larger share of the "burden of proof". We have to first note that status-quo is so blatantly unfair to many castes, and vested interests are determined to keep it so. In such a situation, asking for clear evidence without making alternative proposals, is a tacit support for status-quo. Shouldn%u2019t the burden of proof be on those who are against reservations to collect data where reservations have already been implemented, and make a case for why it is not desirable?
Dr. Ravishankar may be contacted at aDOTravishankarATgmailDOTcom
RE:hi ashok,the second part of the article is in this address,excerpts here.//hi yogesh,u should read this article.
by r patil on Apr 30, 2007 01:03 AM Permalink
Creamy layer criteria is there but it is not been implemented , that is the reason Supreme court refused to lift the STAY order.
If creamy layer is implemented then which is the state which is implementing it ? and what exactly is clasified as being creamy layer ? Is there still any chances for improving ? CAn you please elaborate.
Tamil nadu which is implementing reservation from 1920(good that you told us other wise I was unaware)Atleast 5 to 6 generation have passed .CONsidering 10 5 yrs of education. Not only that in olden days people got govtnment jobs by even studying only till 7th then later till 10th and still later 12th . How many of them have come in the creamy layer since reservation in Tamil nadu is oldest and recently highest.
My old neighour was a school teacher who had studied only till 4 or 5 th std and my father who was 1 generation to join school has done his studies only till 10th because of poverty. And he successively got a govt job .In fact my father was only one in my community to pass 10th in the first go rest all his friends from school and community took 2 to 3 turns .because I come from a poor community which never gave importance to education.My granny who was so intrusted in studies, when a brahmin teacher came home to request my great grand father to admit her in school he refused.Neither my grand father encouraged her to study.My cousin when my granny was more then 75 yrs old gave her nursery book to study.I fill so guilty about it because I did not help her much in her studies.
Why should upper caste be blamed for our educational backwarness? Even now backward cast from villages simply refuse to send their daughter to college, no brahmin asks them to do that ,still they are very stubern people(My caste included sorry no offence)
RE:RE:hi ashok,the second part of the article is in this address,excerpts here.//hi yogesh,u should read this article.
by rumba cardi on Sep 23, 2007 03:18 PM Permalink
got an accident a year before & got foot enjuiry & was operated by upper class doctor 7 still not able to walk as a negligence on a doctors part as he does not perform his operation well , & bill was in thousands ,so what is bad if resevation is being nade compulsory as upper caste doctorrs is also doing negligence on his part,now i believe that reservation is not a bad idea
hi ashok, the population of backward classes in tamilnadu is 46.14%.the percentage of seats reserved for them is 30%.the non reserved category s population in tamilnadyu is 12.95%.the percentage of open competition seats is 31%. if the upper castes get lesser marks than the backward castes in the open competition,who is to be blamed? see this webpage. http://www.tamilnation.org/caste/reservations.htm
RE:points to ponder
by r patil on Apr 30, 2007 12:11 AM Permalink
Will the government divide each reserver category in sub category according to various population and set the reserved sub percental.
Say you come from obc which is given 30% reservation but your cast people are only 5% of the total obc's and they are educational well ahead of other obc who are 95% of the total obc polution .So now you know that your cast people are morally eligible for only 2% reservation and not 30% percent as you think.
Whenever government has tried to bring sub division of the exsisting reservation the dominant educationaly advanced cast have always opposed it.The same thing is going in AP I have read Two caste (I am not so sure about their name )madga and malaya who come under SC category among them one cast is very prosporpous then other in term of education and jobs.BUt even when the other less develop cast is asking for sub division out of the qouta and a bigger share.The other cast is not even ready for division forget the percentile of the share.Can you tell you us why.Do you agree with it.
Dinesh and all pro reservationist when you give some reason for reservation for your particular caste category ,for very same reason you people in general oppose sub division of the qouta between the casts coming in the same category.
Wheater you or some body like you belive , by asking and taking reservation you all are digging your own grave.Since the argument you all come up with in support of reservation , you will always find other set of people from your own group to justify again a sub division of the quota using those very arguments.Then you people have no option to morally oppose it.Yes physicaly and politicaly you'll can oppose only only if your caste is VOTE BANK and political heavy weight.
Friends reservation is a BHASAMASUR which will burn you up in the long run.So be senseble and think in long run for the betterment of not only your caste or your caste category but also about the general category people too.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by vikas patel on Apr 30, 2007 10:17 AM Permalink
Good one... & why do they need reservation for creamy layered too ? Arnt they completive enough ?
RE:points to ponder
by ASHOK on Apr 29, 2007 11:37 PM Permalink
That does not answer my questions: 1)How many NUS Singapore scholarships goes to SC/ST if they are competing well with so called upper class. 2)In 1950 Singapore was no differrent than Bombay of 1950. Why Singapore is so much ahead with minimum crime rate and one of the best on transparency. 3) How many new patents are being filed from Tamilnadu every year.Which are not matched by other states in the India or world. 4)Why Gujarat has 3 out of 5 petrochemical plants.( If Tamil nadu is so ahead >> It has none) 5) Why Gujarat has India's 3 largest Refineries,>> why Tamilnadu has a very small ONE refinery, which does not contribute even 5% where as just 3 refineries in Gujarat are contributing more than 50% of Indias Refining capacity. 6)Why maximaum IPO contribution comes from Gujarat. where is Tamil Nadu in stock exchange. 7) Gujarat has airport at Ahmmedabad / Baroda/Jamnagar/Rajkot/Bhuj and Surat is coming up. How many do we have in Tamil Nadu 3 Gujrat refineries are going to be privatly owned 8)Why do you compare Tamil Nadu with Karnataka.
I sincerly believe it is not caste based politics, it is people who make the difference.
Trust me our politicians hoodwinked us on the name of differrent issues and they are doing nothing differrent this time. As India becomes huge reservoir of talent, no one needs resevation as industry is expanding and no one has a reason to fight for limited seats and quota system. I will write another thread explaining how our politicians kept on suppressing talented India, by bringing in various hurdles and fear factors. caste is just one of them. And I believe that politicians have no caste, except one of GREED and being Corrupt. Barring just few.
RE:points to ponder
by dinesh kumar on Apr 30, 2007 12:18 AM Permalink
hi ashok,i have no intention of debating about who is bigger,who is greater etc. i cited tamilnadus case as it has consistently been implementing reservations for other backward castes. u obviously have experiences that have created a revulsion in u and an anger. i can understand that.if i were in ur position i would be feeling exactly the same. but what ive been trying to convince people on this forum is that theres no basis for ur anger.that doesnt mean im belittling ur feelings.all im trying to do is to show the facts to u and make u to come down from ur anger. now ,the facts i stated to u,46 % of the population is getting 30 % of the seats,while 13 % of the population is getting the chance to compete in 31 % of the seats.if that 13 % of the upper castes are outscored by the people from the reserved category,where does the fault lie? it can be called discriminatory if the backward classes are given a percentage reservation more than their population percentage. the reservation has been provided in the constitution.instead of fighting within the rules,people are expressing frustration through the media and expressing opinions that they will go to america. forgive me , but that is the behaviour of a child. there are ways and means to get grievances redressed.u have to fight for ur rights.the scheduled castes and the backward classes were fighting for a century or more.once the upper castes find their privileged position weakening,they have resorted to badmouth the constitution,the politicians and everything else and want to go to america.that is the saddest thing to do. how many members of the middle class are members of any political party.look at the u.s.the common man takes active part in politics.
RE:points to ponder
by ASHOK on Apr 30, 2007 01:23 AM Permalink
Dear friend I do not want to run away. Now I am 52 year old, just 7 years of my career I worked for ONGC than vacated my Deputy Director Position for ( upper caste or Backward class >> what ever Govt wanted to give to) Ever since I am not dependent on Govt Job , Nor I want to burden Govt of India. US is not waiting for me with open arms unless I again prove that I am top level oil field expert. It is ever going struggle. I started from a very humble background. If I can do it others can also do it ( ST/SC/OBC & Upper class). My schooling was on floor. My fee was 35 paise per day in a Arya Samaj school in Delhi. I was never a creamy layer even in upperclass where some of SC/ST/OBC may hate me. Even If I finally leave India, it will be saddest day in my life. I believe 1984 ONGC SC/ST batch knows me, despite being so called UPPERCASTE, how helpfull I was in teaching whole batch for what is ENHANCED OIL RECOVERY in my LAB. Do what ever you want to do, it is vote bank politics. I believe India would have been much advanced if we were not divided by our learned politicians and I do not see any need of of it if we have enough of everything in education and industry, and not population. In 1970 I was selected at IIT Delhi but could not get 150 RS per month as my fathers salary was less than 120 Rs per month. But still I am pretty OK now on an international scene when I talk to EXXON & SHELL experts at par and I am totally educated out of India.
RE:RE:points to ponder
by rumba cardi on Sep 23, 2007 03:19 PM Permalink
got an accident a year before & got foot enjuiry & was operated by upper class doctor 7 still not able to walk as a negligence on a doctors part as he does not perform his operation well , & bill was in thousands ,so what is bad if resevation is being nade compulsory as upper caste doctorrs is also doing negligence on his part,now i believe that reservation is not a bad idea
RE:[object]
by ASHOK on Apr 30, 2007 01:33 AM Permalink
Dinesh I also do not want Tamil Nadu vs Gujarat, unless you started Tamil Nadu vs Karnataka. It is known,Gujraties did not pay attention to ENGLISH wheras TamilNadu did. But even than Gujarat made a mark on Indian economic scene. it is now that Gujarat is waking upto reality. But still moving ahead in its own way. It is industralisation which gives enough jobs and props up demand for education that you do not need Reservation.
RE:points to ponder
by dinesh kumar on Apr 30, 2007 11:59 AM Permalink
ashok,u have wrongly assumed that i compared tamilnadu and karnataka,i was trying to tell that both tamilnadu and karnataka have many engg colleges ,and are seeing better development,where is the message that i compared tamilnadu and karnataka?
RE:points to ponder
by vikas k patel on Apr 30, 2007 10:12 AM Permalink
If upper cast is outscored from the reserved category ... u should not ask where does the fault lie ? or who is to be blamed? Rather the relevant question is Do u still need reservation ? Any way they have out classed the so called minority rulers no ? & why no debating .. what r u here for ? Do u feel ppl 'll take u as preacher ? U seriously need to correct your thinking man...
Dear Zaheen, My friend, I think it will be interesting to discuss with you. I will write you back in the details.
Bye the way, it seems that you have misconception about me. I am not residing in USA neither have visited USA for a single time.
From where you are? And what you are doing now, I mean your profession.
I will discuss with you as you are continuously interepting us and it shows that you are interested to have discussion with us. When you said " It is very nice to see your views on a serious issue" do you really mean that or you just making joke of me or us? If you really want to discuss with me, I have certain condition. 1)First go through whatever we have written for last 2/3 days thoroughly. 2)No angriness, no cursing, not to become emotional. 3)No personal charges 4) keep away your religion, forget that you are Muslim. 5) have a complete neutral and non-biased view. 6)Totally open minded, we are not here to defend ourselves, but to discuss openly and to find out right solution. 7)tell me name of your brahmin neighbor 8) if you are really impartial, tell us about the wrong thing about your own religion.
Now, I am going outside. So get prepared for these things. I will have discussion with you on the topic that you will like, may be religion or reservation. You decide.
And lastly I dont expect any kind of bitterness in the discussion or coming out of discussion.
Dear Yogesh,Bharat and Dinesh, It is very nice to see your views on a serious issue.What I had told about conversion was also fact and was in the mind of our leader at time of declaration of reservation some 60 years back.Now You all are serious about descrimination of SC by Brahmin Upper Caste or By muslims too before independence.I say my religion do not permit any difference in the name of caste colour or creed.I do not condemn any religion,in fact it is we people who do misinterprettaion of religion as per our need.I have my neighbour a Brahmin uncle and aunti take care of me much more than my family.I myself is a victim of govt. reseravation policy.But I am supporter of reservation because a big community is so far from justice from equality.A community which has been expoloited by upper caste for hundred of years must come in main stream.If they are in race they must be on the starting point.If they are not on starting point how will they competete the race? Yogesh you live in USA,You are not well aware about the ground reality about the position in villages here,just today news thakur upper caste beat the groom and its relative for not saluting the thakur first(Dainik jagran).Its every day bussiness here.You are in USA i would like to give you an example after the terrorist attack on USA there was a wave against Muslim and one sikh was killed by a person,that person was latter given death penalty,you see this was an eaample of racial descrimination and quick action of USA govt and court,this is how justice established .Unfortunatily this do not exist in our country.I myself have sen expolition of SC by my Muslim brothers.I am agreed with you about social reform but who will come forward our leaders who are fighting in the name of caste.Can you give me a single name of leader who is not doing caste politics.
RE:Brahmin
by ASHOK on Apr 29, 2007 08:10 PM Permalink
Dear Zaheen I fully agree with your thoughts, that is what modren India need for its future. Every where in the world, Common man unites only when too much of injustice and cruelty has gone down the history lane. But let us look it with this view >> Business man need to make profit, he is enterprenuer. It is Politician who needs to make sure that Bussiness man leaves enough on the table for Common man.
Similarly Police can be made accountable only by the politicians. If a strong message comes from TOP than no policeman will allow helpless downtroden to be exploited. Our politicians are failing intheir duty, and we need to make our community aware of this on a continuous basis. Otherwise injustice of 1000 years will continue for another 1000 year.
bharat, Thanks Bharat,I completely agree with you and my stand is the same. We need social reforms rather than Caste based reservation. There are so many contradictions in the gov policy and Dinesh's stand that they are really making situation more complicated.
Also there is no point in discussing with Zaheen. I dont think that he may know enough of Hindu, caste system and dont hope that he will try to understand with open mind. Also whether he will accept the problems of his religion?
RE:Agree with Bharart
by bharat on Apr 29, 2007 06:41 PM Permalink
Hi yogesh,
i think you joined the discussions quite late. even i joined late, bnut i have been reading the articles right from the begining. but there were some very good points earlier taken up by some people. i think r patil also joined a little late. please go through the earlier discussions in this topic also.thanx, bharat
