RE:Nobody is against Indian Syncreatic Islam. But we will never allow Islamism, the political Islam which denies India and reduces that to be culturally subverted by Arabian fundamentalist Ummahism.
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 03:08 AM Permalink
Well said. Political Islam is nothing but an Arab national movement. We need Islam of the sufis.
RE:Nobody is against Indian Syncreatic Islam. But we will never allow Islamism, the political Islam which denies India and reduces that to be culturally subverted by Arabian fundamentalist Ummahism.
by Bhaskar Chattopadhyay on Apr 07, 2007 03:13 AM Permalink
Do you know that fundamentalist Deobondis and foreign funded Wahabis have FORCED THE WEEKLY QAWALI IN MUCH NEVERATED HAZRAT NIZAMUDDIN AULIA's SHRINE IN DELHI?
Our Psuedos are thinking by suppressing these things, they will get Muslim vote.
My foot. ISLAMISTS ARE GETTING EMBOLDENED LIKE NEVER BEFORE AND IT WILL SOON BE OUT OF HANDS OF SECULARISTS.
RE:Nobody is against Indian Syncreatic Islam. But we will never allow Islamism, the political Islam which denies India and reduces that to be culturally subverted by Arabian fundamentalist Ummahism.
by Bhaskar Chattopadhyay on Apr 07, 2007 03:18 AM Permalink
Sufis are being attacked on a regular basis in Kashmir, parts of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. They were purged from Pakistan long back.
These places are shared by Hindus and Muslims over many centuries and primary reason for the tolerance in India.
No wonder, with the growth of Deobondi, Wahabi fundamentalism - those are being erased.
RE:[object MouseEvent]
by Zonda on Apr 07, 2007 03:28 AM Permalink
Chattopadhay , Do you know in last 5/6 years 120 Sufi tombs has been demolished by Modi and his goons.Many of them were visited by all religions. WHat do you say in regards to this ? As far as I know Qawaali's are still very much there on Hazrat Nizammudin's shrine on thursdays.
RE:Nobody is against Indian Syncreatic Islam. But we will never allow Islamism, the political Islam which denies India and reduces that to be culturally subverted by Arabian fundamentalist Ummahism.
by Zonda on Apr 07, 2007 03:26 AM Permalink
Chattopadhya, There is just one ISLAM. and anyway this thread is about a ruling on Muslim's minority status and not what you think Muslims should follow.
RE:Nobody is against Indian Syncreatic Islam. But we will never allow Islamism, the political Islam which denies India and reduces that to be culturally subverted by Arabian fundamentalist Ummahism.
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 03:35 AM Permalink
"There is just one ISLAM."
By the same logic, there is only one Hinduism. Then what is this thing you keep talking about "Hindutava."
Does anyone here know the benefits of minority status ? If you guys strongly feel against Muslims's minority status then what about Sikhs- They are financially strongest community, Jains - Financially strong & Hindu , Parsis and Christains ?
RE:what are the benefits of having minority status ?
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 02:44 AM Permalink
The benefit of minority status is that under the Endowments Act, the govt. takes away all the money collected in temples of Hindus from divotees, and this money is then redistrubuted among mosques and churches for their maintenance and expansion.
RE:what are the benefits of having minority status ?
by Zonda on Apr 07, 2007 03:04 AM Permalink
Dear Tourist, Thanks for your reply but I would advice you to find out the real facts.
RE:what are the benefits of having minority status ?
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 03:10 AM Permalink
You want me to read out the Endowments Act to you? You can file an RTI application with the ministry of social welfare and find out how the funds collected under this Act have been utilised. You will find that most of this goes to churches and mosques. ARe you disputing that Muslims are being pampered in India and being used as vote banks?
RE:what are the benefits of having minority status ?
by Zonda on Apr 07, 2007 03:23 AM Permalink
dude , As far as grant to Mosques is concerned I dont any. Otherthan that Waqf has enough property to support itself. Yes few Madrass's get nominal grant and they get support like any other educational institute. Have you heard of Vidhya Mandir's ..RSS sponserd .. BJP govt in UP had made a rule to give a regular grant to them .. now if a Madrassa , asks for grant why there is so hue & cry. and yes minority institutes are autonomus that's the benefit.
RE:what are the benefits of having minority status ?
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 03:41 AM Permalink
Dude, I studied in a Vidya Mandir. There is no communalism taught there and there are no religious classes. Their syllabus is the same as approved by CBSE or state boards and all students sit in the same Board exams like any other. This is the problem with you Muslims -- you people stand like a wall in any discussion, not willing to admit anything about shortcomings of yoru own religion, while heaping dirt on everyone from Hindus to Jews to Christians to Buddhists.
No wonder, the world does not engages in debates with you people anymore, but prefers to take you out on the streets, like America is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. You people are fundamentalists and beyond reasoning and incapable of chaning. You have not changed a bit in the last 1400 years, and there is no hope what did not happen in the last 14 centuries will happen in the next 20 years.
RE:[object]
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 03:45 AM Permalink
"Otherthan that Waqf has enough property to support itself."
And do you know how the Waqf acquired its property and to whom it belonged originally? These are actually temple lands. When Muslim kings used to destroy temples, a mosque was created in its place and all the lands associated with it were given to wakqs. Similarly Church is the second biggest land owner in India after the Railways. Both of these two religions suck.
RE:what are the benefits of having minority status ?
by Anonymous on Apr 07, 2007 04:17 AM Permalink
dn forget what happened to AMERICA...You are another hindu NAZI who has been fully conditioned and has lost the ability to even think on his own....you need a holiday...bloody SERIAL DUMB TOURIST
RE:to shasi sinha
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:39 AM Permalink
Hey Ekalavya, where is your Gurudakshina for that valuable advice. Why dont you gift all your typing fingers. LOL
RE:to shasi sinha
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:49 AM Permalink
Hahaha, are you an escapee from an absurd show, a comedy of errors. Sadly, most of your abuse, I dont follow. Wasted on me, Buddy. Give those fingers some rest...
RE:to shasi sinha
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:30 AM Permalink
Arent you happy, Kumar. You sit on that intellectual pedestal and get people spit out fire. Clever stuff.
RE:But damage is already done
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:20 AM Permalink
Bhaskarjee, if Muslims are pampered so much in this country, show me proof of their progress. I suppose reservations dont benefit Hindus at all. Now, dont argue that reservations for Hindu castes are not pampering....
Rasheedbhai: Are you referring to Sachar report? Apart from National Sample survey which poked hole in Sachar Report, have you seen latest data published by the Economics Times?
New Delhi: The Sachar Committee report depicting "pathetic socio-economic conditions" of Muslims in the country faced a credibility crisis on Friday after a reputed financial daily, The Economic Times, published a survey contradicting the findings of the panel in almost every aspect.
In contrast to the Sachar panel findings, the ET study says Hindus and Muslims are not only very close when it comes to average household income, expenditure or savings, they match each other even in terms of ownership of select consumer goods.
The gap in incomes and savings is almost negligible between the two communities in rural India, the study says. "In fact, it reverses in some cases in favour of Muslims." The report is bound to raise a lot of skepticism about the findings of the Sachar Committee.
Last week, the National Sample Survey Organisation published the seventh quinquennial (occurring every five years) survey of employment and unemployment situation in India, which too indicated a near-equal situation in terms of %u2018self-employment%u2019 opportunities, worker population ratio and even in terms of unemployment rates.
The ET report, on the other hand, is based on the National Council of Applied Economic Research%u2019s (NCAER) data analysis from its National Survey of Household Income and Expenditure (2004-05), which was led by senior fellow Rajesh Shukla.
It contends that the Sikhs are the most prosperous community in India with highest household income, expenditure and ownership of cars, two-wheelers, TV sets and refrigerators. The study puts the average annual household income (at 2004-05 prices) among the Sikhs at Rs 91,153.
Muslims do stand at the bottom as far as income is concerned, but so do the Hindus. As against an annual household income of Rs 61,423 for Hindus, the AHI for Muslims stands at Rs 58,420, for Christians at Rs 70,644 and for others at Rs 101,105.
Which means against an average daily income of Rs 168 in a Hindu household, the daily earning of a Muslim household stands at Rs 160. In rural India, however, the difference is slightly bigger as the annual household income of a Hindu household stands at is Rs 49,077 as against Rs 47,805 in a Muslim household.
The report comes at a time when the Centre was planning a sub-plan as part of the 11th Five-Year Plan proportionate to the population of Muslims on the lines of the one meant for the development of tribals in north-eastern states. The Sachar report had contended that the socio-economic status of Muslims was far behind other communities in India.
The National Household Income and Expenditure survey was based on a sample of approximately 63,000 households spread over 1,976 villages (250 districts) and 2,255 urban wards (342 towns) covering 64 National Sample Survey (NSS) regions in 24 states/UTs.
In terms of expenditure, at Rs 40,327 the average Muslim household, in fact, spends slightly more than a Hindu household, which spends Rs 40,009 a year. The spending of a Sikh household is again the highest at Rs 60,475 while the Christians stand second at Rs 45,291.
The ET report also says that at the national level, Hindu and Muslim households virtually mirror each other on ownership of a host of products %u2014 cars (5.1 per cent and 4.3 per cent ), two-wheeler (35.3 per cent and 31.3 per cent ), refrigerator (17.9 per cent and 15.9 per cent ) and radio (49.5 per cent and 51.3 per cent ). In rural India, Muslim households in fact have an edge in terms of car ownership at 2.6 per cent versus 2.4 per cent of Hindu households.
However, in terms of annual household routine expenditure as a percentage of annual household income, Muslims top the list. They spend 69 per cent of their income on routine household expenditure as against 66 per cent for Sikhs and 64 per cent for Hindus.
RE:RE:But damage is already done
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:35 AM Permalink
Bhaskarjee, my point was about the so called minority appeasement. Reservations for Hindu sub castes, judging by your standards, can qualify as appeasement. Prove me otherwise.
Also never illusion that musglim reservation can be implemeted in India.
Supreme court categorically stated that whole religious categoiry cannot be included as backward.
Even if its put under Art 9, where one cannot challenge it, Muslim reservation will be invalidated by court.
What could be done is, add section of muslims to SC or OBC. But if u want to add them to SC, Mayavati will oppose. If you add it to OBC, Sharad Yadav will oppose.
In any case, if its to be done for muslims, it also have to be done for xtians. Now, xtians will eat the creme, because they are better educated.
Also, religious reservation will catapault BJP in a big big way. They may even get single majority.
In any case, it will spell doom for social tolerance in India.
In those 1000s of villages, where muslims and hindus live side by side peacefully will start exploding.
RE:But damage is already done
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 02:23 AM Permalink
India is a country of the Hindus like Pakistan is a country of Muslims. Hindus wrote the constitution themselves and on thier own declared India secular. Now they can very well declare it a Hindu country if they so wish. INdia belongs to Hindus like Pakistan belongs to Muslims. That was what the partition was all about, right?
RE:But damage is already done
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:27 AM Permalink
Correction, Tourist, you are touring all the wrong places. India is not a Hindu Rashtra as yet, so hold your horses. And since India has declared itself as a secular democratic nation, it cannot take Islamic Pakistan as a model to emulate. And of course, the Hindutva brigade had no part in framing that constitution. So, lets not even go there.
RE:But damage is already done
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 02:50 AM Permalink
Sooner or later, to protect hinduism, we willbe needing another partition. Muslims are not capable of living with others. Then the India that will be left after another partition will be a Hindu rashtra, as militant as Israel to save itself from predators. The way christian conversions are going, it seems Christians will manage to declare Tamil Nade and AP christian states in second partition.
RE:But damage is already done
by Rasheed on Apr 07, 2007 02:45 AM Permalink
The BJP has a purely political motive in exaggerating the insecurity of the Hindus from Muslims and Christians. Its negative propaganda has been thoroughly exposed in Uttar Pradesh, where it was fallen from the heady Babri Masjid demolition days. Today, it is only a bit player, along with Congress.
RE:[object]
by Serial Tourist on Apr 07, 2007 02:56 AM Permalink
"Today, it is only a bit player, along with Congress."
BJP is currently the second largest party in India after Congress. Bjp has only 8 seats less than congress in parliament.
BJP is clearly the future. The idea of India being ruled by HIndu right wings (like all Muslim countries are ruled by Muslim right wing), this idea's time has come and no one can stop it now.
Nehru and Gandhi -- ultra leftists, pacificists and appeasers -- managed to hijack power from nationalists at the last moment. But they have run their course and the Hindu Muslim probelm is still unsolved. It can only be solved by a complete partition, which those scoundrels Gandhi and Nehru did not allow. These idiots managed to gift away land to Muslims and then also kept Muslims in INdia for future trouble. They got Hindus beaten from both sides -- Hindus lost one third of their country and still a susbstantial number of Muslims remained in India to screw their lives. History is not going to forgive these two for their mishcief and lack of strategic insight.
RE:But damage is already done
by keshri dwivedi on Apr 07, 2007 04:44 AM Permalink
very right sir,well said,we hindus are always at receiving end & muslims are being pompered by so called secularist for vote bank,it is high time to think & do something to save hindus,otherwise they will make hindus second class citizen in india also.
EXACTLY!!! Dear Brother Hinduism and Islam is same....i too know it . if u read properly some scripts from veda exist in koran too.
In the Bhagwad Gita which was written in 3100BC ven before Koran cam e into existence...KRISHNA HIMSELF had showed arjuna HIS REAL FORM with countless heads ..never ending form..countless hands ...with all forms, beings in his body...flames in HIS. Engulfing all bad people in flames.
Krishna in Gita says HE had taught the Bhagwad to our SUN (Surya or Viwasvaan) 40,000 Yugas back..before the existence of the cosmic system. One Yuga is 1,70,00000 earth years.
He also sayed that BRAHMA VISHNU MAHESH are demigods....but He also said they all are HIS forms and there to protect the universe.
He has alotted work to HIS aposltes. And has also said that comparisons between HIM & HIS apostles is a crime that will take the individual to jahaannum.
In the Koran it is said that people marrying more than two can never be happy..but still people do. Allah clearly said marrying more than one is allowed only in the stance of protecting & giving shelter to a poor, unsupported female.
Vedas were created in 23000BC or before that is far more older than any scripture in the world. Even Max Muller the great Astromer says and beleives it after several calculations.
I think it all started when some barbaric hordes came from Afgahnisthan and disturbed the peace loving Bharat. Converted millions into muslims..and ones which didnt agree were masacared.
Bhagvad Gita: If u read ..was recited by ALLAH or KRISHNA HIMSELF....HE has also said that He descends on earth after every 5000 years. And the time has come...coz its 5000 years after MAHABHARTA which happened in the year 3100BC. That was the advent of kaliyuga ..after which peoples hatred grew in each other...greed, lust start growing in peoples mind.
Now we are nearing the Golden Age...so we will have fights, calamities and come to extinction before He arrives.
He will support the ones who are peaceful & virtuous. He will see no religion, no caste, nor animal nor human. He will swipe the earth of BAD people..and there is no stopping HIM.
His way can be the way of love or the way of wiping out evil by force.
Presently mankind faces terror from terrorists...and brother remember my words...ALLAH will never spare the ones who've killed over a million now.
Though He will spare us all good beings...so let us all be in peace and wait for him and give mankind the best we can...
The word SACRIFICE has been wrongly used from both Vedas & Koran..ALLAH meant sacrificing means freeing the object or leaving desire over it..for example the COW and in Hindus, we have to free a horse in the ashwamedha yagya. But people mistook it for killing it...WOW....i stood salute the mindset of mankind which has a poor thinking than monkeys.
So the people really never followed Islam from the start... Violence cant be the agenda & teaching of Allah...ive read Koran.
