No other way, guys. The educated, modern minded, urban people have to relinquish all benevolent thoughts which they had for people belonging to the socially oppressed strata. Your generousity has been taken as your weakness, and today ground under your own feet is giving way.
Screaming what is good and what is bad, what is immoral and what is moral will not help. Those days are over. Now is the time to reflect your anger in ballot boxes, because only that is capable of unnerving the political scoundrels.
Need to vote for parties that provides sops to forward castes, does not matter which party it is, be it BJP, Congress, BSP, SP. Start this practice, start it now, and let it be become a trend. Arjun Singh and his cohorts will fall in line automatically.
If intellectuals cries foul, let them bark; arm-chair experts are as inert as rocks, anyway.
RE:No other way
by Observer Observer on Apr 02, 2007 01:58 PM Permalink
If Muslims with 15-18% population can dominate the electoral process, if Yadavs with similar proportion in UP can rule the state, then traditional forward castes also can. It's just a matter of cohesiveness and planning.
Education gives wide vision and knowledge to mankind, but on the other hand, it can also make a person more cunning if need arises. If the so-called 'down-trodden' think they are clever, then forward castes can be cleverer, since they are well-educated.
Muslims follow the directions of Imam, they don't question it, nor do they judge what is moral or immoral.
Forward castes need to save their skin, they need to ensure that they can live with dignity (whatever is left) in this country. To achieve that, if we need to forget our open-mindedness and secular feelings, the let it be.
RE:RE:No other way
by Girish Rao on Apr 02, 2007 02:06 PM Permalink
FW caste need to go and vote, if they dont they will be f***ed by OBC politicians who are worse than Dalit politicians
RE:No other way
by Roy on Apr 02, 2007 01:17 PM Permalink
Dear Observer, Whom are you going to Vote? If you are angry with Congress u mean you will vote for BJP. But they too are in the same boat. OK suppose you are again unhappy with BJP, you will vote for BSP or SP or CPM. or any XYZ party. But see they too are over crowded in the same boat.
So where is your choice to use anger through ballot boxes.
Where is the right to reject all the candidates whom I dont like to vote for ?
RE:RE:No other way
by Observer Observer on Apr 02, 2007 01:34 PM Permalink
For example, Mayawati is now wooing the forward castes in UP. All forward castes, vote in favour of her (the fact that she is also a scoundrel, does not matter) and stamp your weightage in the electoral process. Start this process collectively, you will see the other proponents of 'Social Justice' will automatically get the message.
And for heaven's sake, put aside all arguments for morality and humanity.
RE:No other way
by Roy on Apr 02, 2007 01:47 PM Permalink
Dear Observer, You are Wrong. Nobody writing this message board will vote for BSP or any other above mentioned political parties. But the real fact is the people in UP who votes does not read the rediff message boards and there is plenty of innocent people who does not understand the political propotions. In the election day everybody lands up voting any political party who are good for nothing. Therefore there is no solution by voting any party. Please give me a right to reject any or all candidates whom I dont like to vote. Where is this provision just show me.
RE:No other way
by deepak deepak on Apr 02, 2007 01:39 PM Permalink
Good, You vote for the parties who provide sops to forward castes. That is the need of the hour. At the end of the day only 15-20% will vote for forward & 85% will vote for other than forward. GOOD....
RE:No other way
by Girish Rao on Apr 02, 2007 01:44 PM Permalink
dude ur arithmetic is so wrong and moreover OBCs themselves are divided into millions of caste he he
RE:No other way
by Akash on Apr 02, 2007 02:18 PM Permalink
I am from UP Mr. Roy and I belong to the forward class and the things is, I plan to vote for BSP, all other parties are completely in support of large scale reservations in public and private institutions, as far as forward and backward are concerned, there is no forward and backward,everyone is equal, if history has been unjust to particular communities, it is for us the forward classes to educate those from so called backward classes and support them if and if reservation is removed, we should not hesitate to support SC/ST's/OBC's and minorities if the reservation policy is nullified, actually it had to end in the year 2000 as per constitution and that did not happen,thanks to Vajpayee who all of a sudden increased the time-frame when it was about to end. Every person from the forward community if he practices the caste system should end doing so and if reservations are removed it is upto us then to educate poor people and pool up our excess resources to make them stand equal to us so that some of the horrible mistakes of the past can go to the graveyard. But if reservation remains to hell with it!!!! Reservation is like poison dividing people on the basis of communities and at least 8% of the GDP should be invested in educating all individuals and private parties including affluent people should come out to support the poor. as far as what deepak deepak said 85% 20% makes 105% and there is no such thing as 105% , see this is what reservation gives you , no proper education and no equality, in fact you still have to pay the high fees once you enter a university through reservation. As far as one does not notice your arithmetics, the fact is why did Congress lose in Uttarakhand and Punjab? well because yours as well as the Congress's calculations were wrong based on 1931 census, VP singh from being a Prime Minister reached the zero level and has to start again fresh from western UP, that's what happen to those who bring about reservations. Perhaps if this continues we will all see new parties and all the current political parties will become defunct because of their policies. The fact is what the politicians are doing, they are trying to bring about a divide and rule policy similar to the ones you guys mention, the ones present in history, every forward class student in universities will now not support his fellow mates when he will know which community they belong to,the nation is being divided on basis of communities and creating suspicion amongst them when it is time to bring equality and end poverty in this country. Reservation in fact brings poverty, you will still have to pay the high fees once you get in through reservation into a prestigious university. Equality is the main thing not reservation,that's inequality.I have nothing against any community, I know no community asks for it, the politicians hurl it down their throats and if someone is getting reservation then it's the best thing, how can you refuse? if forward classes would have been given reservation they wouldn't have refused either, the politicians gave a gift and you got to accept, but reservation policy this way is flawed and creates hostilities amongst friends and countrymen. All people from affluent classes support those who are economically and socially backward and by doing so uplift them but if you support them, see to it that you give them equality and tell them not to go through reservation and see to it that they are meritorious enough that they don't need it and get through without it.If more and more people come out and start helping others the politicians will turn out to be mere fools.
RE:No other way
by Roy on Apr 02, 2007 02:28 PM Permalink
Dear Akash, Did your check the manifesto of BSP before voting the same party. We need a solution to this quota system. Are the BSP is going to abolish this reservations if yes then that is the solution to this issue. If they (BSP) too is giving a confusing signal by playing vote bank politics then BSP too will come in the same list of BJP,Congress,SP,CPM and other UPA and NDA partners.
RE:No other way
by Akash on Apr 02, 2007 02:43 PM Permalink
Yes Mr. Roy that's what I am trying to say, the fact is BSP is trying to woo the upper castes right now and Mayawati can say that once or twice but not be so open about it, that will hurt her election results. She has also tried to bring people from the forward classes into the party to stand on behalf of BSP, she will never want her newly found vote bank to abandon her,he they do,she will land up in a mess. Right now it's best to vote for her but if she again starts her rhetoric, we will try to find other options. Right now I believe she is the best bet, as far as manifestos are concerned, all manifestos contain that thing you mentioned about,most of them are either followed or not followed, practicality lies in the fact that vote-bank politics is aimed at communities and then they try to increase their vote bank to reach the national level, if they do abandon a community we will have to look for other options. but forward classes should join one party as it's members and vote for that party irrespective of which state they are in, the thing is even Srinagar University sutdents opposed reservation and well as people from Kohima, reservation is intended to cut the nation along a horizontal line not vertical one that happened in 1947- i.e. you are either a hindu,muslim,christian,sikh,buddhist SC/ST/OBC and get reservation on that basis or else if you are an upper caste or middle caste hindu or a person from another religion who before conversion belonged to upper caste and middle caste community, you are ignored, so it's for us to see which party we should choose not only vote for it but join it in large numbers to turn the picture and all General community students irrespective of which religion you belong to-UNITE! Once reservation policy is nullified , support and help those from the backward classes and bring equality, end this horizontal partition which is taking place right now, it's worse than vertical divide and rule policy
I think this message board had become pro-reservation and anti-reservation platform, which is giving a mixed signal to the whole issue. Even the masses from so-called upper class is also not even against the upliftment of backward classes because that is the ground reality. In the middle politicians are taking advantage of this emotion. Look at BJP,CPM,DMK,SP,BSP Congress and other ruling UPA parties, all are playing the same tune being pro-reservation.People are made fools out of this issue. Now the question is how can we find a solution to this issue when all political parties are pro reservation and quota system. Does anybody have any solution in this matter?
RE:OBC Issue
by Venkatesh Sekhar on Apr 02, 2007 01:34 PM Permalink
Yes we have one and only solution. A separate country without these cheap politicians in it.
RE:OBC Issue
by Roy on Apr 02, 2007 01:55 PM Permalink
You mean u need another independence from these corrupt politicians? 1857 was the beginning for 1947 independence from british rule. So shall we mark 02 April 2007 same as the day of the year 1857. Hum honge kamyab ek din....and we will sure we will get independence from these corrupt politicians...in the near future.
There should be free education, food and health facility for underprivileged children. The term should be clearly defined as orphaned children with nothing to inherit or with guardians who do not have some minimal income. This facility should be available till higher-secondary level schooling and should be coupled as scholarships for further education or as easier bank loans if not scholarships. Caste/Religion based rules shud be completely withdrawn even if it takes rewriting the constitution from scratch. Solve the problem sources of poverty, illiteracy and population. Thos who still think there are castes shud be educated first, either socalled "upper caste" or socalled "lower caste" everyone shud have equal authority and justified "competition". But hardly matters as the politicians running Nation are either illiterate or preoccupied with vested interests. Still console urself saying mera bhaarat mahaan.
I hv some question to the anti- reservation uppecasts.
1) The Indian culture is totaly different fm the world. The Hindu Custom created, Brahmins, Kshtriya,Vaishya and Shudra, Only the fist 2 catagary controlled the education 5000 years in India. The back ward comminity started the education just 40 yers back fluently, How they can cover the genetic advantage of Uppercast and get seats under merit in elite institutions?????
2) The uppercast talking about the quality, after 5000 of total control of education what quality the uppercast given to the Indian education????????
3) what quality having an indian MBBS abroard???
4) the goverment is increasing the 27% seats in elite instictution for full fill the 27% OBC reservation, hence there is no loss on merit/ uppercast, why they objecting the OBC revservation?????
5) reservation is only a opportunity for studying, there is no revervation for the exmination, the OBC/SC or ST candicate want should show the ethic to pass the exam if they pass the exam how it will effect the quality???
6) The laws are emplementing by the parlement and legislative assembly's. the OBC resevation bill and law implemented by the parlament, are u thinking the Court is above the parlament???
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by trikarn on Apr 02, 2007 01:32 PM Permalink
can u believe that a tiny minority can put down the vast majority for that long? and sir, genetics does not come in here. no traits like education can be inherited. only environment can affect performance. so give free compulsory good quality education for all,at school level then see the real merit of india coming out in the open.after this no one will bother about backward forward etc
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by Girish Rao on Apr 02, 2007 01:07 PM Permalink
cut short your stupid comments and concentrate on studies or job whatever you are in. 27% reservation is ok if it goes to really backward OBC not to some rich OBCs pretending to be backward
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by Subhabrata Roy on Apr 02, 2007 01:32 PM Permalink
Mr Anil Kumar yes you are well aware of the perliament now dominated by the caste based politics.. But why are you mumb on the issue of giving reservation to OBCs who deserve it.. The rich ones doesn't deserve it.. If reservations are made for empowerment for poorer sections of the mass I dont think anyone will protest..
I would request you to realize that there are only 2 castes in India.. one rich and one poor.. The rich oppresses and the poors get oppressed. If you consider the case of Haryana where the OBCs are oppressed by not any upper castes but OBCs themselves.. So reservation is required for poorer section and not for richer sections..
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by trikarn on Apr 02, 2007 01:28 PM Permalink
pls understand the issue at hand. no one said no to reservaton, but only trhe realy deserving shud get it. not someone whose parents are politically powerful, or economically well off shud get it. no one can grudge the poOr in obcs getting it. creamy layer concept shud be taken care off also
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by Girish Rao on Apr 02, 2007 01:40 PM Permalink
wat r ur wonderful questions 1) hindu culture didnt exist for 5000 years tats a load of horseshit fed by Periyar,Kancha Illiah etc, at most it existed for 2500 years and even in that 2500 years hinduism was also briefly displaced as top religion by Buddhism,Jainism for atleast 500 years, so your crapshit that hinduism existed for 5000 years is totally bakwas 2) wat control of education are you speaking about dude, india didnt have higher education before 1947. And anyhow why the f*** would ya like to learn Sanskrit you wanna be a poojari
3) Why shud an uppercaste stay here if he is discriminated against just because of his birth
4) merit is not a prerogative of UC they can and will compete with upper-caste why are you identifying merit with upper-caste.
5)opportunity is being misued by rich OBC who have no business to avail reservation benefits
6) parliament is not supreme all the branches have to function properly partliament cannot make any law it wishes to. Tomorrow they will say let us legalize female foeticide.
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by m on Apr 02, 2007 01:32 PM Permalink
Dear Anil,
Too late now.
Cheat us once. Shame on you. Cheat us twice. Shame on us.
For 7000 years we are abused and manipulated. Enough of this.
Let us generously offer a separate state/nation to upper caste/anti reservation people who are less than 10% of India. http://www.blogpoll.com/poll/view_Poll.php?type=java&poll_id=108166
RE:RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by Subhabrata Roy on Apr 02, 2007 01:35 PM Permalink
great Mr m.. keep it up pal.. Jinnah divided us in 1947.. you are doing in 2007.. Congratulations..
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by chandra mohan reddy on Apr 02, 2007 01:51 PM Permalink
This is good suggestion. Separate state should be given to upper caste. Then atleast in this there wont be reservations by means of caste and let OBCs get quarreled among themselves with reservations in their state
RE:RESERVATION IS A RIGHT TO BACKWARD
by ramesh on Apr 02, 2007 01:35 PM Permalink
Anil Kumar KUCH NAHI MILNE DALI TUJE, Like INDIAN CRICKET TEAM. YEH HI HAI RAIGHT CHOICE BABY
RE:DIVIDE THE COUNTRY INTO TWO PARTS
by Venkatesh Sekhar on Apr 02, 2007 01:32 PM Permalink
There should be a clear cut movement supporting all hard working and straight forward people. There should be web site created and all like minded people should keep writing in the same collectively we should fight for our rights, fight for a clean and transperant governance, fight for quality and zero corruption.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mullaly, who served as the sub-collector of Chingleput in 1889 was deeply disturbed by the fact that the untouchables did not even have a proper place to reside. After his visit to a street of the untouchables in Tirukkazhukkundram, he identified that the untouchable settlement %u2018covered only 3.46 acres but had 34 houses in which 65 families lived.%u2019 The total population living in that area was 333 individuals, an average of 10 persons per house: %u2018To form a proper conception, it must be remembered that each house consists of only one room, 12 by 8 feet.%u2019 In his diary entry for 7 July 1888, Mullaly described the situation in Palar village: %u2018I find that most of the paracheri (paraiyar cheri or paraiyar living area) lands are entered in the names of the Mudaliars (vellala Mirasidars) and that they threaten to evict them (the paraiyars) if they don%u2019t work gratis or very cheaply for them%u2019 (Irschick, p. 171-172). The non-brahmins who were described as %u2018equivalent to the untouchables in social life%u2019 by Periyar, never allowed the untouchables to better their lot. They treated them inhumanely. This historical truth continues even today. Periyar led many agitations demanding equality of opportunity. But it was only for those castes described as non-brahmins and not for the untouchables. http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ravikumar020306.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I was very much hurt when young boys and women of Vanniar community abused us with derogatory caste epithets and hurled stones at us. I was really scared", laments a Dalit priest who had come for the funeral of the mother of Fr A.C. Irudayanathan. (note: Vanniar caste means Sudra caste, the lowest category among the castes) "This is a problem of tradition, not of caste, it will go away in course of time. Even intermarriages have taken place in this parish", pleads Fr. Jacob, the Parish Priest of Eraiyur. (note: Fr.Jacob, a Vannier) "The Archbishop is afraid of Vanniars. He himself was on the scene. He too was abused. The archbishop was not allowed into his own church. What kind of moral authority does he have if he doesn't take any action? Either he should close the parish or he should resign from his position", argues a Dalit activist. (http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/TNBCREPORT.htm) -------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- R Thirumalvalavan, leader of the Dalit Panthers of India - When Ramdoss found his base -- he has no political base, only a caste base -- had eroded, he had to do something. If you remember it, he declared during the last assembly election that his party, the PMK was a party for all the communities in the state but he failed in the attempt to make the PMK a political party. So, once again, he wants to rely on his caste, the Vanniyars. He wants to exploit caste sentiments to win their support and votes by projecting himself as the saviour of the Vanniyars. When some dissenting voices came up in the party, he wanted to divert the attention of the people, and that was the reason why he shouted this slogan for a separate state. It is dangerous to the country, the state and the people to have a state based on caste lines. It is particularly dangerous for the Dalits. I will tell you why. When they agitated to change the status of Vanniyars from BC (Backward Caste) to MBC (Most Backward Caste), more than 25,000 Dalit huts were burnt. When we had to bear such atrocities for their fight for reservation, what would the situation be when they fight for a separate state? Their fight will be against the Dalits. http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/12inter.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Traditionally, Dalits come under attack from Vanniyars in northern districts and Thevars in southern districts. But with the emergence of Thirumavalavan and Krishnasamy as strong political factors in the state, the Dalits have also started retaliating.
M Punitha Pandian, the editor of Dalit Murasu, says, %u201CThe government claims untouchability is on the wane, citing decreasing number of cases under the Protection of Civil Rights and SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. But the truth is that the police refuse to register cases.%u201D http://www.aiccindia.org/news/danger_stalks_tamilnadus_dalit_leaders.htm --------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Tension prevailed in Meensuriti village near Jayamkondan in Perambalur district late last night following a communal clash between Vanniyars and Dalits of the village. A petrol bunk was looted, a brick kiln and a saw mill were set afire in the clashes which erupted following the alleged pulling down of a PMK party flag at the Meensuriti bazaar on Tuesday. http://ambedkar.org/News/hl/Communal clash.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caste clashes in the southern state of Tamil Nadu have predominantly involved two communities: the Thevars (a backward caste) and the Pallars (or Dalits). As has been the case in other states, Dalits in Tamil Nadu have long suffered from exploitative economic relationships and have frequently been the victims of violence. However, changes since the early 1990s have altered the economic relationship between the Thevars and the Pallars and have changed the contours of the conflict. Having benefited from the state%u2019s policy of reservations in education and from the income provided by relatives working abroad, the Pallars have become much less dependent on Thevar employment and have begun to assert themselves in the political arena. The Thevars have responded to this threat to their hegemony with violence. Dalits, too, have begun to fight back. http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-07.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- THE SO CALLED OBC - THE TRUE PERPETRATORS OF HARIJANS According to Indian government%u2019s 1996-1997 annual report for ministry of Human Affairs, caste related incidents in 1996 in the southern state of Tamil Nadu increased by 34 percent over previous years. Out of 282 reported incidents, 238 took place between scheduled castes and other backward communities. The main caste groups involved were Thevar, Nadars, and Vanniyars (all backward castes) (2). In the second part of twentieth century, India has witnessed a spurt in violence against dalits. This physical violence is perpetrated largely by the %u2018backward%u2019 castes, who claim victimhood under Brahmins but also turn oppressors of Dalits. This phenomenon can be best understood by study of Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu, home to the non-brahmin movement, has been projected by the political class, social scientists and policy-makers as fertile soil for social justice. However, the Dravidian movement%u2019s empowerment agenda left the dalits %u2013 nineteen percent of the population %u2013 almost untouched. In fact, dalits have been subjected to the worst forms of violence, from being forced to consume human excreta to being murdered for contesting local body elections
RE:Who is the oppressor??
by bracelet grace on Apr 02, 2007 02:05 PM Permalink
I am not against even 100% reservation. But, I wish to submit that, the reason adduced for that cannot stand scientific scrutiny. That masses have been oppressed by a few Brahmins for the past 5000 years or more cannot be substantiated by Malthusian theory, Physics or mathematics given the fact that all along India has been ruled by Non-Brahmin , Buddhist, Jain, Muslim, British Kings and the present anti-Brahmin leader ship. It also means that others have no brain. The few Brahmins who could be near the ruling elite including the present day ones were/are only benamies, touts and scapegoats. The real reason is the whole country, including the so called intelligent Brahmins, has been unproductive and the productivity of other castes is limited to menials and not scientific. Blaming Brahmins and so called upper castes is going to oppress the masses eternally since instead of diagnosing their own deficiencies scientifi-cally and correcting them, it reduces them into the false premise that since Brahmins chanted Vedas we have become backward and we need permanent reservation to uplift ourselves. All should realise that the theory that Brahmins oppressed the nation for the past 5000 years is not only a Fraud committed on the nation but also a ploy to keep the oppressed in eternal oppression. I appeal to one and all to go in for the scientific components of western thoughts alongwith the thoughts of liberalism and Marxism to which the country has already fully subscribed.
Reservation should be made on the basis of economically backward and poor section of people irrespective of caste ,creed and sex.Why Govt is not enacting laws for reservation of women in every sepheres of life.I think reservation is justified for a certain period of time.The poorer sections of the society must be given opportunities to uplift their standard of living.Govt should enact laws to end the present controversy on Reservation.
