I am with Prof. Gopinath. The Reserved catogory students fail miserably in IITs, in general. There were articles about some students who could not get along in IITs, but I doubt any paid any attention to the articles. These students cannot go any where as they will be rejected by their own community. In IITs the input rate to students is very high, the tough JEE ensures only those who can absorb such high inputs and whose fundamentals are clear can clear not just JEE, but IIT itself. I was an average student in school(never saw a first Division-60% and above), but I did clear the JEE. Today when I look back, my fundamentals where very good. So this is what I tell people who want to clear JEE & join IIT-learn to absorb high rates of input with absolutely clear fundamentals. As regards, the reservation issue it has been kicked up by those who have no responsibilty towards the Nation and its people- their only agenda is hold on to the Chair/Seat. Here I do miss Kanshi Ram-who said no need to give crutches to women in 'Women Reservation' issue. We should learn from the American Black people headed by Martin Luther King Jr. who gave the slogan- We Will Succeed-Ham Honge Kamyab.
RE:? should OBCs do?
by Bragadeesh Srinivasan on Jun 09, 2006 08:46 PM Permalink
Yea, yea, whatever that means!!! First things first; we need to remove the reservations that the IIT and IIM coterie have in organizations in India. There is a general understanding to give preference in organizations to ppl from their alumnus whether they deserve it or not.
While an inequitable % of IITians are talented compared to their counterparts from the BITS and the RECs of the world, there are some utterly untalented IITians who sneak through to privileged institutions and companies just leveraging on their pedigree. I mean, saying "brand IIT", "IITian fundamentals" and all that s*** is fine for a few years after graduating but the tendency is to expect privileged positions till the death-bed - in a way a form of reservation. Let us see Gopinathan and the other magnanimous folks fighting against this "reservation".
Predictably, I am one of those who didn't do well on that one day in the JEE (due to my "fundamentals" :-)??) and have been branded OEC (other engineering colleges) for the rest of life :-))...what did you say??, yea! o' course, I am jealous of the IITians!!!
Reading the article made me proud to be have people who know my institution and our casteless system so well. Although the reservations shall happen, its sad that the ones who actually matter (professors, academicians, students) werent even consulted.
And hes right about the OBCs in IITs who are not academically strong. They struggle a lot and are always find themselves out of place.
Add to that, the fact that the quota cant be filled presently.
RE:How true
by Avinav Nigam on Jun 10, 2006 03:03 PM Permalink
The point being, education needs to be brought in for all starting at the base as Sai mentions. Not at the top for students who havent had quality primary and secondary education. It just demeans the idea of "higher education" as Prof Gopinathan has so precisely mentioned.
Friends who have gotten through on reservations say they would feel happier had they gotten through on merit. It gives them a RIGHT to be there. Letting them in without grooming is like leaving them in a dark room full of treasures without the ability to see. The same would be true of any person (whatever his cast be) who got through purely on reservations.
Once the institutes start failing is when the Government (and the opposition) will realise what they have done. Screw around with anything else but the education system, I say. It is producing qualified professionals all of India is proud of.
RE:How true
by Sai Chandra on Jun 09, 2006 05:44 PM Permalink
That is lack of basic education that puts people in dark forgetting the fact that every human is equal. Why does it not happen in urban areas? Education my friend is the only answer not Higher education! Why dont you go abck to that village and tell them how the world is living?
RE:How true
by Mukesh Rao.E on Jun 10, 2006 10:26 AM Permalink
I empathize with u. I agree with some of ur feelings. I have a question , do u think son of an IAS or IPS or an economically affluent class get the same hospitality.
In my opinion, Money drives all these.so if we support the below poverty line people,it serves purpose.
U said u were from IIT.Why didnot u register a attrocity case in such humiliating circumstances.
Long Live Merit. Please take APJ Abdul Kalam as inspiration.
RE:How true
by TJ on Jun 09, 2006 03:51 PM Permalink
Mr Ravi,
It is punishable by law. We do not know of *any* temple that practises this system. Can you let us know which temple this was and when it happen ? Does it still continue at that place ?
I am positive this could not have happened in the four southern states. A vast majority of the temples trustees are so-called OBCs. So I am not sure what your complaint is.
RE:How true
by Ravi on Jun 09, 2006 08:18 PM Permalink
Reservations are less than the respective populations. The task is to continuously work towards upliftment and at one stage there should be no need of any reservations. And that stage is just a few years away from now.
Reservation is not revenge, just a compensation for students who go through social dogma. That student, who has to fight with his feelings about social structure at a tender age while trying to concentrate on his school, study
"..determines who will marry whom, who will eat with whom, who will touch whom, who will vote for whom and of late who will get into IIT!"
Well said.. so if you agree with these points in order then you shouldn't get frustrated by whats happening sir..
regarding all reserve category students unable to complete courses don't just quote the average of all of your 27 years experience... try to see how much they have improved! Gauge them on improvement scale.. take last 5 years of data and then look at your arguments... am an IITian with a high CGPA!!
- An Indian bogged down by Casteism in Childhood but still successful thanks to the affirmative actions of Government. Am totally committed to long-term sustainable development and success of the country.
PS: I was denied entering temple and access to water at public places (an incident I observed as late as in year 2001 in a town). It happnes with ~20% of population (given my caste is OBC in some states and SC in others, at a Hinduism scale of 1-10 I put it at ~2) The mental trauma a person goes through under such circumstances is totally incomparable with anything else including the 'economic backwardness' favoured by anti-quota ppl
RE:An honest response
by himanshu on Jun 13, 2006 07:18 PM Permalink
Kaushik,
I think, your response is quite uninformed because you have no idea what opression does to the mental state of a person. An opressed person looses all the confidence he has in his abilities. May be you should have born in a SC/ST/OBC family and seen the other side. I am sure you would have understood why a person with high GPA will still take reservation. I would like to ask you, what positive steps have you taken to make sure people who are down in the rut get the same kind of progressive enviornment that you may have got. I guess none... because your reactive views are quite visible from your message. So if you cant find a soln for a problem or even cant suggest one then let the people who are giving reservation as a solution handle it. If you think it is not right then stand up and suggest one soln instead of reacting the way you are doing.
RE:An honest response
by Raghu on Jun 09, 2006 07:49 PM Permalink
Well, thats interesting statistic ... 20% suffer because of castism . So what percentage accounts for total OBC and SC/ST . What are the rest 80% ? .. is it upper caste ? .. So someone does the discrimination and the rest of the indians suffer because of that ? . The whole issue is the reservation for the elite institutions ... anyways till then there is reservation .. Should the quality suffer ? .. You having studied in a IIT should know how would it be when the class strength is 3 times what it is now ... And this is all because of Govt for which u were proud of ..
RE:An honest response
by Himanshu on Jun 13, 2006 07:20 PM Permalink
Pravin,
A very honest message from you.. Thats certainly shows an initiative, a solution, which unfortunately very few people are doing on this forum. Lets remove the cast system and lets provide benefit to every one on the basis of the economic status. I strongly believe thats the way forward.
May be we should all make an online petition and ask for the end of cast system in india. What do you think?
RE:An honest response
by Raju on Jun 09, 2006 04:48 PM Permalink
So, do you really want to continue such caste differences? or want to revenge to someone for your unfortunate childhood? Then you wanted the same kind of situation to come back ( everything on caste basis)
RE:An honest response
by Kaushik Das on Jun 09, 2006 08:35 PM Permalink
Shame on you! If you are a high CGPA IITan, why did you take reservation? If oyu had the calibre, didn't you have the uts to compete? What about the person who could not get the seat because he was a so called upper caste? Did he not have the potential to be a high-CGPA IITan? Do you know if he was poor? Do you know if he had faced any discrimination because of poverty? You are just concerned about yourself and your entry into IIT. If you have so much calibre, you could have got into any other engg colleges like NITs or other good ones. You, a high CGPA IITan, should know that affirmative action is not the same as reservation.
RE:An honest response
by Pravin on Jun 10, 2006 02:05 PM Permalink
Dear friend, It is this bane of casteism which we have to fight against. Everyone is equal. Reservation only strengthens the caste brigade. There will continue to be caste based divisions and people will continue to be identified by the caste they were born into. We need to have forums like a Citizen's group against Casteism which could handle incidents like the temple episode in a legal manner. We need to shed false prejudices like Brahmin, Kshatriya or whatever and view every person as one and respect his right to live in the society. The concept of reservation sadly, works only the other way round.
RE:Nice
by sgpal on Jun 15, 2006 04:18 PM Permalink
This guy propoganta fellow thinks with his behind.(please look up a proper dictionary as to the meaning of behind).English is a foreign language for ALL INdians, not just for you.If some of us can crack the language unlike many others over here and manage to express the thoughts clearly, the credit is to the person.Thats called merit! In case you do not know the meaning of merit, which I believe you dont,please look up in the dictionary.Just right click on this word and say yahoo dictionary, bingo meaning comes infront of you. The point I was making was that if you do not have the merit to express your thoughts clearly in any language for that matter, you do need reservation and that means you are inferior.Is that clear??? if you do not ask for reservation you are superior.
RE:Nice
by sgpal on Jun 15, 2006 04:42 PM Permalink
Hi propoganta fellow Your message clearly exposes the following facts about your self. 1.At the least you know that you dont know.Good that's a good sign.There is scope for a change and improvement. 2.Ability to communicate effectively in ENGLISH or for that matter in any language, is not necessarily a sign of knowledge.Is that what you are saying? If yes, then of course its not.How ever all the things that matter are in english and so in order to understand and communicate better, you have no option but to learn english and communicate.Correct? If you agree with that point the next point will blast you off. If we both study English as a foreign language in the same setting, under the same conditions and one can do better than the other, inspite of the environment, its called merit. Correct? This merit is not an innate ability reserved to some castes only by god.The way you Scs and sts and obcs are going on , makes me wonder whether i need to change my above thought process too.
well said prof gopinathan.but your views can be read by few persons like me , it requires a mass movement from a person like you. will you please do that.
RE:obc's
by sivaraman on Jun 14, 2006 11:23 AM Permalink
Yes, My English is poor. But my expressions reached and you responded. I am not ashamed of my English, after all this my foreign language.
If you think that well-known English persons are intelligent then Star Hotel Receptionist and English literature student also to be considered as most knowledgeable person. Isnt it?
I dont think Prof. Gopinathan wrote a technical article in rediff to commend his subject and I have to be an another IIT professor.
If somebody is having very good academic knowledge not necessarily his opinion about the every subject/society is correct. I cant simply agree with his points only because of he came from IIT.
Please dont mix-up your emotions with IIT Prof., your personal opinion and about the current issue.
RE:how many of your village peoples got higher education
by Lakshmi on Jun 09, 2006 09:38 PM Permalink
Mr.Sivaraman,
you are giving the answer in your response. Tell me how many of the village people are deprived of the reservations because of OBC's /SC/ST population in Cities. If you are so concerned about village people, join anti-reservation protest. Protest against extending reservations to those in cities, extending reservations to families who already got benefited by reservations for more than once. Then we need not hike the present percentage of reservations.
RE:obc's
by CV on Jun 11, 2006 11:20 AM Permalink
This Sid reeks of failure and stupidity from miles away. Dude, the point being made is "Let education be exclusively on the basis of merit. Does not matter whether the person is from BC or FC". Before you comment about Dr. Anand, note one thing, if stupid idiots get into reputed institutions, it is akin to entering the gladiator's arena through the backdoor - you can get in, but you have to bloody fight your way out. That is something back-door entrants cannot do.
RE:obc's
by Punit Rathod on Jun 09, 2006 07:34 PM Permalink
> how many of your village peoples got higher education how you ever thought about them? > How many peoples will get a guide like your science teacher.
This is exactly what the author says that you need to fight for. The deprived need quality schooling.
Reservation in Post Graduate education will not compensate for lack of education to hundreds and thousands of villagers.
This only proves that the author has thought more about the deprived in the village than what you have.
> But you kind of people will only tell to throw away a crutch ,but will never give/come up with any solution to solve it.
He has come up with a solution, only if you could see it. "Throw away the crutches and look for empowering the uneducated. Make them independent, not dependents".
Finally... stop behaving as if reservation is your birth right. Fight for right to equality ! When others can get good schooling and good teachers early in their childhood, why cant the ones in village !
RE:obc's
by Ramana on Jun 11, 2006 01:31 AM Permalink
Hello "SID",
How many times you got reservation fruits to serve in for the so called 12 years. Which one is better ...either reservation to give the fruits to OBCs who are already set well or providing the quality education at primary and secondary level in the backword or rural areas where people are not having basic sanity requirements. If you support people like Sivaraman, you will get the worst service than what you are getting in Indian government organisations, since Sivaramans are there to serve you. See his thought process of asking the same questions already asked by IIT profesor. It is his gready and your gready which making India so deprived.
RE:obc's
by Punit Rathod on Jun 09, 2006 07:35 PM Permalink
> how many of your village peoples got higher education how you ever thought about them? > How many peoples will get a guide like your science teacher.
This is exactly what the author says that you need to fight for. The deprived need quality schooling.
Reservation in Post Graduate education will not compensate for lack of education to hundreds and thousands of villagers.
This only proves that the author has thought more about the deprived in the village than what you have.
> But you kind of people will only tell to throw away a crutch ,but will never give/come up with any solution to solve it.
He has come up with a solution, only if you could see it. "Throw away the crutches and look for empowering the uneducated. Make them independent, not dependents".
Finally... stop behaving as if reservation is your birth right. Fight for right to equality ! When others can get good schooling and good teachers early in their childhood, why cant the ones in village !
RE:obc's
by sgpal on Jun 10, 2006 11:57 AM Permalink
Regarding the propoganta sivaraman's comments" I wuld like d to placed my reponce here.With his atroshius way of speling and his thought proses expoced ,it is beter that he did not taught his villege peple, or else yhey would catch his speiing and thought virus!"
RE:obc's
by Bimal on Jun 09, 2006 03:43 PM Permalink
Hello There, Don't wait for the solutions... it won't come to ur feet.. Look for the solution... then u r done...
RE:obc's
by Raghu on Jun 09, 2006 07:26 PM Permalink
Mr. sivaraman, You got so wild after just reading an article against reservation. How would a student who has to build a career on pure merit feel ? .How would an economically backward and who is neither an OBC nor an SC/ST feel ? .Are the OBC's only living in rural places ?. Sorry to say but OBC's and other reserved categories are spoiling themselves and also the society. This is exactly what the professor meant when he said about crutches. It's just the matter of time when IIT's and IIM's would be just another govt. run institution where there is hardly any quality. The professor feels bad because he knows whats it like being in an IIT and the effects it can have brining in reservation. Tell you what anything thats not earned would not give u any pleasure. Anyways one need to have inner conscience to feel any of that.
One more popaganta against reversion. Peoples against reversions are hiding behind Christian name then backward class. I am sure that soon rediif will come up with another article saying that so called intellectual professor kind people will write a article saying that he is more SC/ST caste and dont want any reservation.
For the author, how many of your village peoples got higher education how you ever thought about them? How many peoples will get a guide like your science teacher.
As a retired person you have plenty of time to read or write anything. Please do it firever.whether your writings yield any good result or not.
But you kind of people will only tell to throw away a crutch ,but will never give/come up with any solution to solve it.
RE:What should OBCs do?
by VNP on Jun 09, 2006 07:27 PM Permalink
Hee hee,what superb english mister sivamaran.And you are commenting on the IIT prof.Learn english and then let us see what you want tell and if we can understand it. Hee hee
RE:What should OBCs do?
by Kris on Jun 09, 2006 05:59 PM Permalink
Mr. Sivaraman Before pointing your finger against a veteran; have you ever tried doing the same you have been asking of him? Have you ever tried helping people in your village by imparting whatever education you have achieved? Forget about your village have you ever tried helping the children in your backyard who could not afford to study? Will reserving a seat for those people help them to achieve empowerment?
before going sentimental about the point of discussion you should use a little bit of self introspection and some of your education in percieving the point of contention. if you are not able to do that - it reflects on how much you could absorb/make use of the very crutches you are talking off... you are only exemplify whatever the author has pointed to!!
RE:What should OBCs do?
by subhojit on Jun 09, 2006 10:40 PM Permalink
If you feel that there are not many good teachers or schools in the villages then why don't you ask those from our great political leaders?? That is the only way the so called backward people of our country can be brought forward. That is not easy and our poilitical leaders chose easier way to get votes from backward people.
There is no shortcut to success in life. Without proper primary and secondary education if someone is gifted an admission into IIT it just like throwing one into sea who doesn't know how to swim.
Instead of wasting the HUGE amount of money to increase the number of seats as proposed by the government those could have been used for improvement in primary education in villages leading to TRUE benefit of people of backward classes. But we always choose short-cuts. So India will see backward people remain backward for ever.
For heaven's sake please do not ask this person called Sivaraman to teach in a village or his neighbors. His write up is sufficient to kill the enthusiasm of even those few brilliant students in a village. This fellow could not even make use of the spell & grammar check in the computer before posting his message. Do you expect him or people like him to do any good to the society? Leave it to brilliant people like Gopinathan about whose caste we could not care!
RE:What should OBCs do?
by rayker on Jun 09, 2006 04:16 PM Permalink
you sir, are just not getting the point do you ? blinded by the one sided thingking that you have. he is not going to give you any solution. thats what he's asked people to do in the first place. its the survival of the fittest theory that he has offered. he came up the hard way. successful men dont need any backing, they do it without it. dhirubhai ambani dint have a harvard degree to suceed. there are scores of such examples. education is a tool, its the hard work that counts.
RE:What should OBCs do?
by abut on Jun 09, 2006 05:13 PM Permalink
The result of taking easy path is visible in your English and language. First, go polish it and then try to comment on an IIT Prof's article.
RE:What should OBCs do?
by abhijeet on Jun 09, 2006 06:06 PM Permalink
Sivraman, you look quite confused and are not clear about views.Please dont post any comment just for the heck of it.I did not understand what's wrong in the article.I think its quite visionary.For me if u ask about this whole game of reservation, i think it is the personal vandetta of that old guy Arjun singh.Look like he is still frustrated because he did not get PM post ever.
RE:What should OBCs do?
by Sunil G. on Jun 09, 2006 06:31 PM Permalink
This Sivaraman is either son of a politician like Arjun singh or a creamy layer, who doesn't need it but will get it. Good for nothing son in laws of Sonia, Arjun and Manmohans - Get a life.
RE:What should OBCs do?
by Sid on Jun 10, 2006 02:14 PM Permalink
Dr Anand,
I hope that you are aware that communication is not about grammatical accuracy. I doubt if this professor will be able to teach village kids. He is used to teach people who know certain lingo. I suggest you come up with your suggestion when english grammer is discussed. Right now we are discussing about OBC reservation.
To be frank I am disgusted with the suggestion of this few greedy upper castes (contribution of the upper castes - caste and the colonization) that the standards will dilute. I think it does not matter if 85% population gets representation in schools runnig on public money. A lot more people will have awareness about engineering or medical fields. And for that we will bear the cost of dilution of merit. And if the IIT professors think they want to quit they can. We do not want narrow minded geeks. As a person working in private industry for last 12 years I have seen so called merit of upper castes so I just get disgusted when they come cribbing about quality and merit.
Mr.Arjun Singh, CM of Tamilnadu.( Central Minister Mr.Anbumani ramdoss - with a copy to his father) the great finance minister of India, and also those who are very much interested in destroy our elite indian education, i also want to know how finance minsiter who studied in foreign country asking for quota in higher studies,
All that i can do is nod my head for what he has said. Everything he has told is so perfect.It's just that any person from any caste with the required hardwork can get into IIT's and IIM's. Even after the Obc's or sc/st's got into into these institutions with the reservation would not benifit much. Then again reservation in Pvt. companies would be done which would be such a shame. And am sure the targetted section of the people for whom this reservation was done would not benifit as well. It would be only the elite group with lots of money or poletical power would benifit. I was really sad when one of my friend told me that a caste certificate can be done for just few thousand rupees. All for reservation !. If only we had few distinguished people like Mr. Gopinathan among our politicians. But then thats too much to ask ... because this is india.
RE:Hats off, sir
by bharat on Jun 10, 2006 04:00 PM Permalink
I think there should be quota minimum 50% in Govt and private sector for another 20 years thenonly India can shine like Europe. Trueindian.
I think there should be a common platform for atleast the MBBS and the IIT/UDCT and other autonomous university. because as per my personal expierience halfof the reserved category students dont even qualify till the final year and they cooly get some government post in some administrative depts hence discontinue their courses.
All Indians should read this stimulating article and think to build quality Indian on the basis of equality, otherwise we will be last in the International growth and recognition as Indian.
