So what if the rich gets their kids to these Universities(colleges in US) by paying a king's ransom - they're not called the "Ivy League" for nothing. There are thousands of other good, and some not so good, colleges, both state and private, available to the hoi polloi who are unable to make it to the Ivy Leagues. The IITs and IIMs are different - they are the Ivy Leagues of the Indian universty scene, but they are govt owned and controlled (taxpayers monies run them) entry to them should be merit-based, not money. To each his own! Comparing the privately-owned US Ivy League schools with its govt-owned Indian counterpart is like comparing apples to bananas. And what exactly is Rashmi's point??
RE:RE:IITs&IIMs: whose benefit?
by blue wrox on Sep 13, 2007 01:44 AM Permalink
The point is ur an idiot.Harward,cambridge and all have equuvalent management quota.Now for you guys every thing in india is katta aur payara aam hamesha madhur.idiot grow up.america is not indraprastha.
Please do not use the word idiot.No one knows everything.In independent country like our's every citizen has right to make his opinion.Please never use such words henceforth.After all only good discussion and contemplation of ideas will bring something useful.
Was Rashmi paid by IITs and IIMs for publicity. Let me do some reality check on IITs and IIMs. Only good thing these institute do is pick people who are highly motivated and have ability to bear stress. And they select thousands (combined) out of billion people. You put these people anywhere and they are bound to do well just on the basis of selection. The level of innovation and creativity from IITs and IIMs is not even worth talking about (esp compared to input and talent pool). So all they do is choose a most sturdy of billion and provide them to American economy as techno-labor. On average these people work under the vision of someone else (I am not talking about exceptions). lastly coming to Rashmi Bansal. Her article should be deemed as 'funny'. She smacks of a attitude that people in Harvard she is criticizing posses. I have studied in elite places where selection ratio is even more difficult than IITs. And I have seen students who get this attitude the moment they get selection letter. Well I did and they all should consider them lucky first. And finally last myth: IITs and IIMs contribute to India's growth only as much as Indians working in Gulf (They just dont have Rashmi Bansal's for PR). Go to any technology and development place in India (DRDO, ISRO, etc) and show me how many IITs and IIMs are there? Lets not create Harvards in India. Access of quality education to all is must for any govt and society.
RE:Missing forest for the trees
by Jay Badri on Sep 12, 2007 11:28 PM Permalink
Hope u heard about vinod khosla,ask his opinion about IITs,ask BillGates about IITs.we need more such institutes,that is the point.When 50% r uneducated we still have institutes like IITs,for that reason even apple is co-founded by a IIT guy,ask steve jobs.Vinod Khosla is bigger than Bill Gates.these people are having vision beyond our imagination.Nehru 70 yrs back started them we r reaping these benefits.why do u think only indians r dominating in silicon valley,why not other countries,they r highly motivated individuals who r making big and they r coming back in droves to our own silicon valley in bangalore.We brilliant people to take india to next level,though they r here in US,they will help back in India.How do we provide access to quality education to all,is underdeveloped govt is capable of providing.Does Ambani,L&T pays all their taxes,may be only narayan murthy ex IIT pays his taxes,why do u think Infosys is elite,One of the top companies because of lot of IITians,they love to share with all.We all studied in India,we r fortuante enough our fathers were lucky to provide education,some how nehru like visionaries took india on a right path,due to PV and manmohan like people,India is prospering,talking about DRDO and ISRO they r assemblyunits,each and every chip comes from US or other Asian giants,u cant have russia late bro economy here,capitalism drives excellence and US proved,even china following.Be wise and be proud u came this far.
RE:Missing forest for the trees
by blue wrox on Sep 13, 2007 01:49 AM Permalink
To S.Narain
"My friend India can never be like USA,even if we 10 times more talented fellows as compared to Americans ,Be it sports or acedemics.. the reason".Everything in amrika is good and everything thats indian is bad for this idiot and he justifies with some stupid movie he sees.Stupid idiots like this should be banished to live in the ghettos of america.When he finds that the smell of poor in america is the same or maybe worser than india he will learn.Idiot.
RE:Missing forest for the trees
by Jay Badri on Sep 13, 2007 02:42 AM Permalink
we r a very young nation.Atleast we didnt go the rout of pakistan building nation on religion.Atleast educated visionaries like nehru,gandhi,vinobha bhave thought about IITs,nuclear research,Irrigation projects,manufacturing industry,improving rlws,public sectors,english,hindi.they always wanted unity among diversity.Politicians overtime exploited democracy to loot economy,use religion,caste for votes,but still foundation of education sustained us,middleclass with family values,encouragement and support from everybody lead a peaceful life in the absence of police,courts and justice.Govt cudn't even provide power or water or ven invest in education,here people r busy with survival,next comes entertainment or sports.Now people r becoming sophisticated,economy is improving,we shud improve sports.MRF started pacefoundation we see face bowlers now.In USA sports r a way of life,they have compulsory education,they provide plenty of oppurtunities for students to pursue sports as a career,it is very rewarding also,any poor guy can make it big in US,thats why blacks dominate lot of sports,lot of tendulkars here in tons of sports,like basketball,football,baseball,icehockey,athletics.They r rich,they have mindboggling educational facilities,let us cross one step,maybe we will make our youngsters pursue sports as a carrer option.Sania and Azhar made waves though they came from lower middleclass Hyd community.In US mostof the blacks r in jails,drug addicts,general 60% divorece rates..
RE:Missing forest for the trees
by RD on Sep 13, 2007 11:05 PM Permalink
Most of your examples are exaggerated. Probably they are also generated by this hype the IIT and IIM machinery. Even if I take all of them as true for argument sake, they are all in US or working for the development of US. And thats the point, I am making if you can read carefully. I know Indians are bright (I have seen that). But our education system (and that includes IIT) creates technical labour, not innovators, leaders and creators. And I am NOT SAYING Indians can never be. But on average we are not. So don't be a moron and quote few examples created in the US system. If you read carefuly, I said IIT selection picks smart people and they are bound to do well given an chance. But my point is they would do as well if they are given an degree without attending single class. Its not EDUCATION, its just SELECTION. If you want to prove me wrong tell tell me about original research papers/work from IITs, and not how well these people did in US. Even cab drivers from India did very well in US.
RE:Missing forest for the trees
by S Narain on Sep 12, 2007 11:07 PM Permalink
My friend India can never be like USA,even if we 10 times more talented fellows as compared to Americans ,Be it sports or acedemics.. the reason???
In IITs/ IIMs have pathetic level of sponsoring for R&D, The Indian industry gives 1000 of croes to politicians to get advantage from different minsters like finanace,industry ,banking etc ,they would never spend any money on R&D. It is only in last 10 years that Indian industry is getting connected to global scene. This is changing the oppurtunities ,talented Indians would be sought after by MNCs whereas our rich & corrupt businessmen would be chasing politicians for making more money by hook or crook ,mostly at the cost of society. Our rich have perverted mind and care a damn about nation and the talented people. Hence brain drain is better than brain going into the drain!!!! Amitabh Bachhan did role of Jay in Shole ,fighting against the villian Gabbar ,It was appreciated but today he prefers to do the role Gabbar,because our society has become more appreciative of evil. I can hardly see now days people appreciating good .Evil is much more in demand.
Its a good observation, that one cannot buy their way into an IIT/IIM like some ivy league schools in the US. Its also a good idea that the government is considering opening more of these institutions, but what is really troubling is the fact, that the government is proposing a 50% reservation in these schools, (with the addition of the OBC quota). Its been 60 years since independence, should there not be a deadline when the quota system will be abolished, and help be provided to students only on basis of economic status.
RE:comments...
by Jay Badri on Sep 12, 2007 09:22 PM Permalink
Let them have it,correspondingly they will increase seats.Dalits and OBCs will have a chance to see the otherside of world.If we bring them it is in your benfit only.dont call me dalit or OBC.If u harp on reservation lallu and mayawathi will get elected,its for vote bank politics,we shud moveon.we can afford to join our kids in harvard or yale,but dalit will not be able to see such excellence.We can have them resrvation or whatever,its old issue,we moved on.We have plenty of oppurtunities world is at ur feet,let some disadvantaged have some fruits.
Why does the world forget Indian Institutes Of Information Technology....which have seen tremendous job opportunities as the good run for IT Product and Services continue, shall continue for another few decades .. Why not have another 20 IIIT's on the lines of IIIT-Allahabad, which has joined the premier league of T-schools in just 7-8 years of its history.
IT Centres of Excellence are the way to go for young India that has started to explore the world through IT brain power.
RE:Indian Institutes Of Information Technology
by Vishal on Sep 12, 2007 08:35 PM Permalink
Rightly written and conveyed.....take another..the future strengths of these IT Institutes are the MBA programmes they have started to offer....should soon be as good as the IIM's....but focused on Information Technology and related areas...as strong business needs arise from the Indian IT sector....few years and MBA@IIIT Allahabad has begun to churn out IT business professionals for the IT world.
> IT Business Development > IT Consultancy > Business Analysts > IT Product Managers > Project Managers > ERP Functional Specialists > IT Governance, Risk and Compliance Consultants
Specializations in Information Technology with a little blend on Finance and Marketing....and the IT Industry will be pouring in a lot to recruit them right from the initial days on campus.
many ppl just type something from half analysis. there is no definite basis for comparing established institutions ... each will have their own strengths .. the legacy/donor enrollment in havard/mit is true .. same does not exist in iit which is also true... and nobody is idolising any university here... guys from both iits or mits have their strenghts from which many things can be learnt.
on the above article: yes that is a good perspective - we might not want "corruption catalysts" like funds or anything to come in the way of iits .. if corporates want to donate let them do .. not like mandatory funding which will obviously ask for atleast few reserved seats ...given the way things work in india, it is better that these instis are govt funded with donations from others.
RE:looking at the comments
by Jay Badri on Sep 12, 2007 08:21 PM Permalink
See what IIM alumni wrote like following.
Even for sons and daughters of CEO's is was an honor to be able to make it past an IIM. One such students told me that me that his family was full of people who had done their MBAs from assorted US Universities; but he was the first child in a generation to secure an admission to an IIM. I guess another student whose father was a traveling salesman would have been proud of his achievements; but this guy who was born with silver spoon in his mouth was even prouder for having done something which was considered impossible within family. Dont degrade urself,indians have a habit keeping his own down,never gives a hand or appreciates what he has,every human is unique,god created them so unique,consider him as 8th wonder of world.come out and think outside the box.appreciate,encourage,band and progress,team work,team work,u alone cant change world.our farmer brothers who r working in fields for 2 meals a day,they r also greatest gandhis who are keeping india alive by providing food.I can see that a small shop owner,paan shop owner is more smart than any harvard returnee here,he keeps his finances tight,interacts with customers.we descredit lallu,nobody is indisposable,he turned around railways,he is giving guest lectures in harvard.I have seen the story of a IIM grad from slums of Madras,he is making news.I truely feel that IIT or IIM are definitely wonders of education system.You see a young person,he need not be rich,can make it to I
RE:looking at the comments
by Sanjay Enselvan on Sep 12, 2007 08:47 PM Permalink
We still have a long way to go-long way then we can cite the examples of Harvard and Duke.Until then please stop wasting time with such articles.The need of the hour is improving education and access to education and corruption free society.The author is talking about corruption -that too a fraction in Harvard and Duke.What she needs to notice is widespread inequality in Indian society and divisive politics and society.Our products are from this system and not the otherway.People end up in various institutions based on oppurtunities and other aspects-also there are great intititutions which do not bear brand names in India.We are talking about 2% population which can think of competing for IIts.what about others??Does it make sense to compare this little sample pick with international institutes.Being best means what?We need to comeout of frog in the well mentality.
RE:looking at the comments
by Jay Badri on Sep 12, 2007 11:44 PM Permalink
Sanjay we r still poor country.Lot of our businessman will not pay taxes.what is wrong with having elite institutes like IITs,they set highest standards with whatever resources they have.They provide toughest means of entry,it is open to all.let them thrive,even we have REC's,PILANI type institutes when they hire in google,microsoft they r even seeing ur from IITs or Pilanis.It always matters,the barrier u set,u r supposed to innovate innovate,u r supposed keep ahead of tech always in IT also,u have a motivation to excel.India is no longer just routine outsourcing,even Texas Inst,Motorola started in 80s,they r doing cutting edge research in Tech,they r lead by highly motivated individuals from our elite institutes.Even cisco is setting R&D in bangalore,they r moving operations there,SAP,IBM in bigway started investing in India.Japan is ready to jump with us,over a time like china,leading edge technolgy will move to India,we need to step it up,Govt need to be alert now.Businessweek writes about India becoming 3rd leading economy in world.We have seen super highways constructed by 2012,telecomm revolution is going,internet explosion started,real estate is also exploding but we politician mafia to step it up,atleast take us to nextlevel.nothing wrong having more IITs,while mimicing atleast we will more talented people to manage coming boom.They r expecting shortage in skilled people by 2025.we shud step up intelligence,honesty from our politicians.We alone educated can do it?
We have seen IIT guys controlling silicon valley.They r the best with spice from India.These guys rule the world the way they got into these institutions,by sheer hardwork,and freaking intelligence.They have the toughest admission procedure,its like typical rise of India in hitech,they were the backbone.earlier we used to think we r having brain drain,but all the talent is coming back and make us all proud.Though all of them studied India and most of them migrated to US,u can see the fruits of this alumni,they r the brains running atleast silicon valley.I hope our IIM graduates will catch up with IITs and rule the business.go guys we r really proud of u.Make us proud,for generations we will take u as bench mark.on the other hand we can't discredit american universities,they is is very expensive for us,they are atleast 200 years beyond our indian education.Even a small university will have budgets beyond reach of IITs,the R&D facilities are hand in hand with industry,They pioneer technology breakthrus like internet and breathtaking innovations.they have 3000 universities which have as good or more facilities than IITs or IIMs,but classic difference is in India the admission procedure allows to bring in sheer talent,which makes them better than harvard,they r indian spicy geeks.They r like our great heriatge running for millions of years,they r a mistery,even bill gates always looks for these guys to keep microsoft afloat.
the article went astray midway and didn't address the issues it started with.
PPP could very well be implemented, given the fact that IIM-A has a huge corpus and not all of it is donation from alumni. The institute could look at consulting, research revenue beyond the fees.
A brand has a snob value only if it has exclusivity. What current students or alumni fear is dilution of their brand. Given the intellectual capital in India i think more IIMs are justified.
The sad fact is that we are increasing the number of institutions and number of students in the existing instituions, but quality faculty is lacking. Teaching has become an unattractive profession with the best brains opting for industry. As genuine academicians stay away from these institutes, they gradually become "unacademic" and eventually "anti-academic". Already this is the state with many (but not all) of our universities. The government has done no good by using its authority in posting heads for these instituions according to its whims and fancies with no genuine consideration for merit. Eventually, if things go this way, we will end up with a large number of IITs IIMS just like our universities.
Rashmi's article is symptomatic of what ails our higher education system. About 80% of her essay is a cut and paste from one single source to drive home her view, rather weakly at that, about the Indian education system. We can have a thousand institutions of higher learning but till the day we encourage original research and ideas we will keep producing these cut and paste coder coolies or excel sheet coolies.
While the elites in India abhor the reservation system,the idea of reservation is not a bad one-it is the implementation. Reservation should "assist" the lesser privileged student in achieving his or her goal and not "reward" them with it.
RE:Copy & Paste
by arjun on Sep 12, 2007 06:28 PM Permalink
agreed,while there is factor of brilliance or intelligence which is mostly given importance whenever someone achieves something in India-the author misses the greater point-that american and western way of approach is that anyone can make it to the top and achieve his best if there is an oppurtunity and proper system-NOT JUST INTELLIGENCE AND HARDWORK but proper approach.All the education in US is standardised.The fact that US "achieves" so many olympic medals and nobel prizes is more of bringing out the best in every indivudual-its system provides oppurtuniities to every indivudual and does not differentiate based based so called elite and not so elite institutions-it time we stop talking about IITs or IIMs or intelligence.Getting into IIT or IIM is more considered as a prestige rather than any higher purpose or social goal in life by many people.Our goal is make all oppurtunities available to all.Desire and values are greater than brands and so called merit or nonmerit.Like feudalism-our approach has not changed over years.
RE:Copy & Paste
by abbas ali on Sep 12, 2007 06:47 PM Permalink
I agree with u arjun-author focuses on how hard it is to get into IIM.Being in US over last many years-I agree CAT is hard but IIM does not really succeed in accomplishing it goal of creating practical knowledge.Same applies to IITs.There is more emphasis on choosing the best but not on creating the best education system.Thats where IIts and IIms are eons behing harvards and dukes.Just "the approach" as u said.People have to see the both the systems.Even universities like that of Michigan and Wisconsin are vastly built with proper systems in place.Everything is uniform.Forget about comparing with Harvard or Duke which are best in the world-the author should first analyse where IITs or IIMs stand with respect to "other"-(classified as per author)institutions in US and China.Here the emphasis is creating education systems.Cutting edge research takes place even in very small institutions in US but same thing would not even be possible back home because of good versus bad institutions classifications.One can only differentiate who is good and bad based on practical applicable knowledge not on exam scores or how hard the test is.
RE:Copy & Paste
by abbas ali on Sep 12, 2007 06:47 PM Permalink
I agree with u arjun-author focuses on how hard it is to get into IIM.Being in US over last many years-I agree CAT is hard but IIM does not really succeed in accomplishing it goal of creating practical knowledge.Same applies to IITs.There is more emphasis on choosing the best but not on creating the best education system.Thats where IIts and IIms are eons behing harvards and dukes.Just "the approach" as u said.People have to see the both the systems.Even universities like that of Michigan and Wisconsin are vastly built with proper systems in place.Everything is uniform.Forget about comparing with Harvard or Duke which are best in the world-the author should first analyse where IITs or IIMs stand with respect to "other"-(classified as per author)institutions in US and China.Here the emphasis is creating education systems.Cutting edge research takes place even in very small institutions in US but same thing would not even be possible back home because of good versus bad institutions classifications.One can only differentiate who is good and bad based on practical applicable knowledge not on exam scores or how hard the test is.
RE:Copy & Paste
by Jay Badri on Sep 12, 2007 07:25 PM Permalink
Buddy India is behind US atleast 200 yrs.even then IIT folks making inroads into siliconvalley.India is underdeveloped country but somehow IITs are making inroads in IT.Even Bill gates is recruiting them and even he started R&D in india,even google looks for them.Out of sheer talent these geeks r making us proud.Why do want to analyse Indian university system to ours,we need a major overhaul.U see 12th class kid in US and 12th class kid in India,u compare them and who is best.Though US has 200 yrs of advantage,u see our future generation is miles ahead on math skills or their attitude to educational excellence.Even Bill Gates crying hoarse the approach on american education.i can see that for americans they became too rich,for them education is not an an option or only way of survival.For indians they spend more time on education,it is the only option for them to excel,they r still poor,they have an obligation on them excel and conquer the heights.I cud plainly see that our guys r geeks compared to harvard returnee,India is progressing atleast we emphasize more on education,we'll get investment,may be our future generation will get benefitted.Allready one IIIT started in Hyd which as good as anyother Institute in US.As more MNCs leading companies put up shop in india private enterprise will hopefully invest in these universities,dont expect our govt to do such things.capitalism will drive these things.
RE:Copy & Paste
by Sanjay Enselvan on Sep 12, 2007 08:32 PM Permalink
Buddy,we are 200 yrs behind in attitude and application and basics like equality and social responsibility not inteligence or development.Sorry.The above article is by an indivudual who is a product of system and thinking.No surprises.
